BRADLEY SMOKER | "Taste the Great Outdoors"

Smoking Techniques => Cold Smoking => Topic started by: whitetailfan on March 26, 2004, 05:20:11 am

Title: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: whitetailfan on March 26, 2004, 05:20:11 am
I have read nearly every thread on the forums and am still confused.
One of the great features of the Bradley is the ability to cold smoke, but what is ever cold smoked[?]

Every recipe or discussion I come across at some point has the internal temperature rising to a fully cooked temperature.
Exactly what is cold smoked salmon for instance, and is it safe?
Someone had a good recipe or discussion on their cold smoked fish, but then talked about finishing it off on the Foreman Grill.

Simply - Is there a meat product out there that is never brought up to 130+ deg before eating it[?]

I thought I would cold smoke some salmon this weekend, but if it needs to be cooked afterward, I will take it up to temp in the Bradley, its only going to be a couple of tiny "fillet pieces" that would be for snacking only.

The definition in the manual is smoking below 100deg, but I don't know when I would use that if I have to cook the product after[:(]

Looking for someone to truly define cold smoking and when a person would use that process[:D][:D][:D]

John - Lethbridge, AB
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Bassman on March 26, 2004, 01:01:46 pm
The first pork butt I ever smoked I hot smoked for 5hrs.took it and finished it in the oven.After pulling it apart the next day I tasted it and thought it could use more smoke. So I put it back in the smoker with no heat,only smoke for about 1hr. Then life was good!Cheese is another good example of smoking without heat.

<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: trout on March 26, 2004, 11:15:50 pm
Cold smoked salmon is perfectly safe if cured properly.  It does not need to reach any particular temp.  It is packed in a salt cure, and is essentially edible with or without smoke (see other threads for some salt cure recipes for salmon).  Also see the other smoked salmon threads for tips on how to keep the temp in your smoker as cool as possible while cold smoking.  I have had great success smoking cheddar cheese blocks also.  Temp is not as crucial as with the salmon, but you still want it as cool as possible and use the highest rack to avoid melting your cheese.  I smoked mine for a little over an hour and got a good smoky flavor.[8D]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Chez Bubba on March 27, 2004, 01:23:54 am
Trout nails it, at least in my semi-informed opinion. Cold smoking must include curing to be safe, unless you later hot cook it. Therefore, most anything CAN be cold smoked, you just have to follow the right rules.

This is one of the primary reasons I enjoy this forum. I know only bits about this particular process & can read posts from people who can teach me more through their experience.

It ain't work if you're learning what you love,

Kirk[8D]

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: whitetailfan on March 27, 2004, 07:08:22 am
Thanks guys,
I am going to try to cold smoke my salmon tomorrow.  I did a dry rub of Morton tenderquik to specs, plus added some extra course salt just to be sure.  The Morton package says that 4 hours will do, but mine is going overnight, so it should be properly cured.

This is a big part of smoking that is poorly covered with the manual, as someone eluded to in the Curing topic.  I always new that cure was required for some stuff, as I come from a family who makes home made game sausage which I have helped to prepare MANY batches in my life[:p]

The confusing part is that the main purpose of a cure is to deter bacteria through the time that you are smoking.  Since it is a long process at lower than normal temp (say compared to oven roasting at 350deg) that is where the danger zone is.  The fact that a meat product is cured, still does not make me want to eat it uncooked, but with fish that does not seem to be a problem.

I love this forum, because the secrets to smoking and other recipes are usually more closely guarded than Fort Knox, yet we all share a great deal.

John - Lethbridge, AB
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: trout on March 27, 2004, 04:48:14 pm
Bradley has a video out with some recipes including a cold smoked salmon recipe.  I found the video to be rather down to earth and entertaining as they are constantly reminding the viewer that they are not expert cooks.  But anyway, their drycure method for cold smoked salmon as well as most I have found call for the fish to be pressed while curing.  Most recipes suggest using a brick or other heavy object wrapped in foil or plastic to weigh down on the fish.  After curing overnight it should be firm.[;)]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Chez Bubba on March 27, 2004, 09:36:13 pm
Did you also notice in the video that they appeared to enjoying a few beverages along the way. I thought it was pretty funny, but then again, I guess it's not that far from reality.[:D]

They looked pretty rough the next day though. I'll have to ask the Mrs if I look like that.[:D]

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: n/a on September 04, 2004, 06:25:26 pm
I like to cold smoke burgers before grilling and rib eye steaks are just the best after a good cold smoke then grilled. Bradley is the best.. I have been seeing smoked salt in some high end stores. I think Bradley can do that. Cold smoking can make you look like a chef to your friends.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Bad Flynch on September 15, 2004, 04:05:30 am
Taking all meats to a fully cooked temperature is a modern Canadian practice and may even be Canadian law for commercially processed meats. In the U.S., bacon (U.S. style), is almost never precooked this way. There are still old-fashioned hams available that are not cooked at all, some "Canadian" bacons, pork jowl; some pork chops (cured and smoked) are and some are not, most fish is not cooked, most sausages are now brought to a fully cooked temperature. Sausage varies, however, and one must read the label: some is and some isn't. Cold smoking is actually a little better when the meat is not cooked, as in all-beef summer sausages in the past. If one could find trichina-free certified pork, it could be used in some of the old uncooked pork sausages.

B.F.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Chez Bubba on September 16, 2004, 04:42:10 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bad Flynch</i>
<br />If one could find trichina-free certified pork, it could be used in some of the old uncooked pork sausages.

B.F.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">From what I've read, virtually all pork is trichnea-free these days and if you want to be extra-cautious, just freeze it for 21 days.

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Bad Flynch on September 16, 2004, 04:54:41 pm
[/quote]From what I've read, virtually all pork is trichnea-free these days and if you want to be extra-cautious, just freeze it for 21 days.[/quote]

The standards, in the U.S. for freezing pork and then being able to call it "certified trichina-free" are quite rigid. Nevertheless, a good freeze with a certain minimum temperature and a certain length of time would do one at home quite well. What brought this to mind is that I have an old Hungarian recipe for cold smoked sausage that is essentially 100% pork butt.

B.F.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: dana on November 09, 2004, 10:34:47 pm
Hi John,
I ran a cold smoke salmon operation for 9 years and thought i could answer your questions on cold smoking. For the salmon and trout that I did, the kiln temp could never exceed 30C. If it did rise above this the fish would slowly cook and become mushy. I have recently purchased a bradley smoker for this purpose only as a hobby now but have come to find out that their idea of cold smoking is anything between 40C and 80C which was a kick in the head to me. Even their brochure touts it as a primo cold smoker. I think they need to go to smokin school for awhile..(haha)Anyway thats enough of my grumbling and I hope this has answered your question on cold smoke temps
Sincerely,
Dana A
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Karl913 on November 10, 2004, 02:51:46 am
I just picked up this book the smoked-foods cookbook by Lue&Ed Park and in it,it says "The trichinae can also be killed by freezing.If you choose to freeze the meat,follow the U.S.D.A.regulations. -20 degrees F.for 6-12 days,-10deg.F. for 10-20 days, or -5deg.F. for 20-30 days." this was thier advice on pork,bear and "other susceptible meats." I hope this was helpful. [:)]Karl
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Smalls on November 10, 2004, 09:13:22 am
Dana,
 You may be able to get cooler cold smoking temps from the Bradley.  Some people have suggested only using the smoke generator and leaving the heating element off.  Some have also used ice in the water bowl in place of water to keep the temp low.  Leaving the vent fully open would help as well.  If you live in a colder region, cooler outside temps would keep the internal temp down too.
Bill
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Chez Bubba on November 12, 2004, 01:19:15 am
Dana,

I have no trouble keeping the temp below 100F, even when the ambient is 70F. All of what Smalls posted is true. Plus, if it's even semi-cloudy, keep it in the shade, especially with the black ones.

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: birdboy on December 10, 2004, 07:12:38 pm
Couldn't you Cold Smoke anything that you wanted to cook at a later date?  So if I going to smoke some product for dinner and wanted to fill the smoker with product to take advantage of the space and maximize the usage of pucks, couldn't I cold smoke everything, pull the extra out once smoked and freeze it.  And either turn up the heat for the dinner portion ...  

Now I would have smoked product, ready to cook at a moments notice?

Just what comes to my head when I think of cold smoked...kinda like dry aged.... a process used to enhance flavor etc to be cooked in the future ...  I could be way off
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: BigSmoker on December 10, 2004, 07:55:20 pm
Birdboy,
You can cold smoke burgers, steaks, chicken what ever.  The only thing is that if its not cured the meat stays in the danger zone of 40-140°f and poses the risk that it will have bacterial growth where cured meat retards this growth.  Now if you freeze the meat after cold smoking for a period of time I would think the bacteria would be killed and you would be O.K. or if you make sure you cook it to proper temps 160° kills most all bacteria.  The only problem is I don't want my steak at 160°f.  I have found that food I have hot smoked has more smoke flavor the next day so I think this would be true for cold smoked meat as well.  I'm no expert on this food temp stuff so I might be totally wrong[:D].

Jeff
www.bbqshopping.com
Some say BBQ is in your blood, if thats true my blood must be BBQ sauce.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 11, 2004, 01:55:04 pm
All foods contain bacteria, it is the amount of bacteria that will determine if it is fit for human consumption. Once the bacteria level rises to a point that it contaminates the food beyound the state to be safely consumed, then it's needs to be thrown out. Freezing does not kill bacteria, it puts it in a dormant state. In addition, for some bacteria, it is the waste they produce is what's toxic. I've read articles (this pertains to non-cured meats) that stated; from the time you take the food out of the refridgerator until the time the internal meat temperature reaches 140 degrees should not be longer than two hours. Also the recommended temperature to reheat food is 165 degrees, and you must maintain that temperature for at least 15 seconds.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Oldman on December 11, 2004, 02:29:12 pm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Freezing does not kill bacteria, it puts it in a dormant state. In addition, for some bacteria, it is the waste they produce is what's toxic. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

This is right on the money~~!

http://rminor.com
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: BigSmoker on December 11, 2004, 04:02:49 pm
Thanks guys I knew I was walking on thin ice there.  Probally should have kept my mouth shut.

Jeff
www.bbqshopping.com
Some say BBQ is in your blood, if thats true my blood must be BBQ sauce.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: birdboy on December 13, 2004, 06:17:46 pm
So if you wanted to cold smoke and freeze product for later, you would have to cure... something with sodium nitrite in it...?
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 13, 2004, 08:10:28 pm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by birdboy</i>
<br />So if you wanted to cold smoke and freeze product for later, you would have to cure... something with sodium nitrite in it...?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Technically, Yes! Or in the case of thin cuts of meat and fish a salt cure will do. I say this because if you keep the meat in the danger zone 40 - 140 degrees F. for more than two hours, it is not safe to consume. Having said that, I need to mention that smoke in itself has acids in it that helps preserve the meat by preventing the growth of surface mold and bacteria. I do not know how much longer or if this extends the amount of time you can keep the meat in the danger zone, while you are cold smoking.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: BigRed on December 13, 2004, 09:16:03 pm
Quote
<i>Originally posted by birdboy</i>
<br />Couldn't you Cold Smoke anything that you wanted to cook at a later date?  So if I going to smoke some product for dinner and wanted to fill the smoker with product to take advantage of the space and maximize the usage of pucks, couldn't I cold smoke everything, pull the extra out once smoked and freeze it.  And either turn up the heat for the dinner portion ...  

Now I would have smoked product, ready to cook at a moments notice?

Just what comes to my head when I think of cold smoked...kinda like dry aged.... a process used to enhance flavor etc to be cooked in the future ...  I could be way off

Birdboy!

In theroy I think you are right but I think it would depend on what your smoking, how long you smoke it and then how long you would keep it frozen. You would have to use a vacum sucking machine to keep any air out and then try your luck. I would not freeze beef as an example more than 3 months. I just think it has an old taste to it.

BigRED
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 14, 2004, 01:50:55 am
I just read the section of Smoked Meats in Harold McGee’s “On Food and Cooking; The Science and Lore of the Kitchen.” He basically states that smoking preserves the surface of the meat, and kills or inhibits the growth of microbes (bacteria).  During cold smoking, smoke vapors are deposited on the surface of meat, as much as seven times faster then when you are hot smoking.

In my opinion, if you handle the meat properly prior to smoking, I would think you could cold smoke without curing first, and not have to worry about bacteria. As Big Red states it will depend on how long you cold smoke. Myself, I would limit it to four hours. I generally don’t apply smoke beyond four hours anyway.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: birdboy on December 14, 2004, 09:29:10 pm
Excellent info guys, thanks!
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Crazy Canuck on February 25, 2005, 02:48:10 am
One of the main reasons I went with the BS was I would have the ability to cold smoke at teperatures below 100 degrees F. I found that above that temperature you start to dehydrate the meat. I have not smoked any fish yet but plan to in the near future so keep us informed on your findings.
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: JJC on February 26, 2005, 05:55:19 pm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Karl913</i>
<br />I just picked up this book the smoked-foods cookbook by Lue&Ed Park and in it,it says "The trichinae can also be killed by freezing.If you choose to freeze the meat,follow the U.S.D.A.regulations. -20 degrees F.for 6-12 days,-10deg.F. for 10-20 days, or -5deg.F. for 20-30 days." this was thier advice on pork,bear and "other susceptible meats." I hope this was helpful. [:)]Karl
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Welcome to the Forum, Karl.  I notice you're from NJ--may I add you to the list of NorthEast BSers I'm keeping in case we want to get together sometime for some fun and feastin'?

John
Newton MA
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: JJC on February 26, 2005, 05:59:22 pm
Hi All,

Sorry I did not jump in on this a bit earlier.  A lot of what's been discussed here is covered in the piece on Curing and Brining in the board you can access through the Sticky at the top of each Forum.

There's also some new info here that would be a nice addition to C+B piece, and I'll try to include it in an updated version soon.  

That's what I love about this place--always something new goin' on! [8D][:D]

John
Newton MA
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: gotbbq on February 27, 2005, 12:08:22 pm
Fellow Smokers-

I read (on this site) that if you dry brine (salt and sugar) for more that 7-9 hrs, the salmon becomes mushy?  This doesn't seem to make sense in light of the other threads posted.  Also, many lox recipes call for the dry brine for over 24 hrs, in the fridge.  Anyone shed some light on this one?

Gotbbq[^][^][^]
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: Harpo on March 19, 2005, 01:48:54 am
Hello Fellow & Madam smokers, Must be politicaly corredt these days.
I just wanted to mention that last weekend I cold smoked 24 3/4 bone in chops that I had the butcher cut, they weighed 8oz each, I cold smoked them for 2hrs and the ambient temp was 40. I used apple and they where great. After smoking them on Friday I grilled 6 on the weber, and vacum packed the rest. I also had put a pork rub on them before smoking. Well I just heated up two that were left from grilling and they were just as tender and had a great smokey taste.
 I di not marinade these before smoking and the BS did not go above 75f, I only mention this after doing it because of the things I have read here about curing, marinating and a salt cure. I jsut wanted to pass this info on, Looking forward to more of your ideas all have been great. Jaeger I will be doing that jerky you had mentioned to me on Monday meat is now thawing and I will mix it Saturday and let sit one day will let you know and send pics. Thanks to all for all your ideas.
Harpo[;)]
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: jaeger on March 19, 2005, 03:06:49 am
Cool! [8D]
We'll be looking for it!



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/xcelsmoke/FREEGIF.gif)

<font size="4"><b>Doug</b></font id="size4">
Title: Re: What can be truly cold smoked?
Post by: JJC on March 23, 2005, 02:27:02 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jaeger</i>
<br />Cool! [8D]
We'll be looking for it!



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/xcelsmoke/FREEGIF.gif)

<font size="4"><b>Doug</b></font id="size4">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Harpo,

Your experience with the pork chops was nice to hear about.  Since you never had your chops in the danger zone for more than 2 hours, you were not taking any risk of food poisoning.  Habanero's comment about smoke being a presevative is well worth noting--I'm quite sure you could go up to 4 hours in the danger zone without a problem if you are  smokin'

John
Newton MA