Anybody ever used this in place of a nitrate? I like the thought of making sausage without the nitrates.
Celery juice powder does seem to be gaining interest. According to the description; by using celery juice powder you do not get that characteristic taste that you get from using either sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate. I've never used it, and thought about using it for smoked sausage, but the price it too high for me. My overall view is that nitrates are nitrates. There may be some benefits from using natural nitrates that come from celery, but on the other hand saltpeter (potassium nitrate) is natural.
Yes I have but only one time. The Sausagemaker.com has Celery Juice Powder listed. They say it is a natural cure substitute to Sodium or Potassium Nitrite and that it has the same capabilities and curing properties. They sell 1.25 Ounces and say it makes 25 lbs. They also say that this ingredient does the job of basic salt/nitrite cure???????????????????
Let us know how it turns out........
Tom
Good point, I'll let you know how my kielbasa turns out this weekend with it.
The reason celery products work is because celery is very high in nitrate. A highly regarded survey published in 2009 found an average nitrate concentration of 1495 ppm nitrate in conventionally grown celery. Of the veggies analyzed, (broccoli, cabbage, celery, lettuce and spinach), only spinach was higher (2797). Other studies have established that ~ 80% of the nitrates in the human diet come from vegetables. Cured meats are the primary source of nitrites in the human diet.
Because of the USDA's labelling regulations, meats cured with celery can be labeled organic, natural and nitrate free, if they meet the other necessary criteria, which is very misleading. As a chemist, nitrate is nitrate. If you want to use nitrate as your curing agent and you prefer it from a vegetable source, then it's a good product.
So do all nitrates in any form cause cancer? My taster from the kielbasa batch with celery powder was good. Had no chemical taste like cure #1 adds. I'm waiting on the sausage to finish. Had to put it back in today to try and reach IT 152 . It ran for 8hrs ( 1hr@100,1hr@125,1hr@145,5hrs@165, IT only 143) last night on only a 5lb batch. I was trying to finish it today @165 cab temp. I noticed today my auber meat probe could not read boiling water (90) and if u touch the wire it jumps all over the place. before I had the pid I got the IT of 152 on sausage faster, probably due to the inconsistent heat control of the obs. What would be a normal time @165 on a 5lb batch to reach IT of 152??
I have never had any chemical taste from any of the cure in any of my sausage. If you have a chemical taste your using way to much cure.
1 tsp per 5lbs.
To me that is not a chemical taste. That is the flavoring that sodium nitrites provides. I love that flavor in hams, bacon and other cured whole muscle meats, but not in my sausages.
yeah, its a distinctive taste for sure. To me its an after taste. For the celery powder I used 2tsp for 5lbs. no instructions on the packet, only lists the package weight and that it does 25lbs.
Quote from: rkp on February 13, 2011, 11:39:59 AM
So do all nitrates in any form cause cancer? My taster from the kielbasa batch with celery powder was good. Had no chemical taste like cure #1 adds. ...
First, I have no idea what you mean by "chemical taste", but I will agree with NePaS. Any direct taste contributed by cure #1 in appropriate amount should be sensed basically as salty. The flavor of sodium nitrite is generally likened to salt. Nitrites do contribute to a different flavor development over time that is characteristic of cured meats (some describe it as the ham taste), but by itself it should basically taste like salt.
Second, I know of no definitive, well conducted study either toxicological or epidemiological,and there have been many, that has found that nitrate is cancer causing. This remains the position of the National Academy of Sciences and the FDA who have studied the question at length for more than 30 years.
Please understand that when you use celery products you are most likely using predominantly nitrate unless a suitable bacteria that effects the reduction of nitrate to nitrite has been included. Nitrate and nitrite are a "couple", in that they can be interconverted. In curing meat nitrite is the working agent and nitrate serves as a reservoir of reserve capacity. Normally nitrate is included for long-term cures, such as with hams and other dry aged meats, and not for short term curing applications. The use of celery products as nitrite source requires either pretreatment or the inclusion of a culture to reduce the nitrate to nitrite. Without adequate controls this can lead to higher levels of nitrite than would normally be had with the use of a nitrite curing agent directly.
Nitrite either in its sodium or potassium salt form poses an acute health risk due to its ability to bind with hemoglobin. The levels required for that to be a serious concern would require eating a vast amount of a properly cured meat product in on sitting, enough so that the normal salt levels would probably present a greater immediate health risk.
There have been suggestions and hypotheses that nitrites in the diet present a health risk due to the potential of reacting with amines to produce nitrosamines, some of which are known to be potent carcinogens. However, numerous toxicological studies have not been able to find a link between dietary intake of nitrites and cancer. It remains a concern that has not been substantiated after significant effort to confirm a cause and effect relationship.
In spite of the lack of any credible supporting scientific evidence, the
concern over adverse health effects of nitrate and nitrite in the human diet can and does lead to fear of both. The web is full of non-credible information suggesting serious adverse health effects from both nitrates and nitrites. In the interest of neutrality let me suggest two easily obtained references, both of which strike me as unbiased and neutral without any benefit of position either pro or con:
1. From
The New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services (http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/ard/documents/ard-ehp-16.pdf)
2. From
The University of Minnesota Extension Service (http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/nutrition/DJ0974.html)
Thanks, I'm new to smoking and this is all great info. I am definitely learning about this as I go with lots of help from you guys. I know that all you hear about is nitrates and cancer, limit the amount of preserved meats you eat and all that. Of course I like meat/food too much to change my diet. But if any of it is true and a product like celery powder is healthier or if it tastes better than cure, then I would use it. There is some kind of taste that my wife and I have noticed in the sausages I have made with cure #1 and I would say it is not a salty taste, maybe a biting after taste or maybe its the smoke, but this batch of Kielbasa so far does not have that taste. Sausagemaker says that the celery powder is processed to be used as a natural nitrate that breaks down to a nitrite to cure the sausage. Man, maybe too much info. If it tastes good eat it!
I too am largely in the "if it taste good eat it camp".
A couple of added thoughts about your experience of cure #1 vs celery juice powder and the taste differences.
Nitrate and nitrite are anions and come as salts. As far as source goes nitrate is nitrate and nitrite is nitrite, organic or otherwise. But different sources can lead to different taste. First in the case of Cure #1, 93.75% of what you are adding is salt. If you don't compensate for the salt that comes with it by reducing the amount of salt in the recipe then changing to celery juice powder will lead to an overall lower salt level.
Second, nitrate salts do not have the same taste impact that as nitrite salts. As I noted above and by sausagemakers description, if you haven't provided for the conversion of the natural nitrate in the celery product then you likely have a very low nitrite level, which will diminish both the desired protective impact as well as the taste impact that nitrite brings.
Third, while nitrite is nitrite, etc., the celery juice powder comes with a bunch of other stuff that is not present in Cure #1. That stuff may be contributing its own flavors or may be masking other flavors you find undesirable (flavor masking of off flavors is one of the things salt does, especially in meats).
So there is no simple answer to why it taste different to you. If it does, it does. However, the use of celery juice powder as you have described also comes with a general lack of control of the nitrite level in the "cured" product, and that can present it's own problems from either too much or too little. Personally, I like control.
I can not help jump in here a little. I have made sausage for 45 years using cure number one. [In the old days it was called it Preg powder] I have never found a bitter or any other kind of after taste. But what I have found switching from one wood to another can make a huge difference. Some woods have different pitches in them which can have an after taste. I have not tried the celery version of nitrate but I do know I want control of the bugs. I had a friend die of botulism poisoning and I am not willing to take chances. If you are going to use the celery based cure make sure you know what you are doing.
People's taste buds experience different tastes, so what you are tasting could be from the nitrites. For example I hate cilantro it has a soapy bitter taste and can only tolerate it in very small quantities in a dish, and cumin tastes like bad body odor or dirt, I have to roast it before I can tolerate it. Most people do not experience this.
If you believe that nitrates cause cancer, then cure #1 would be safer to use. Nitrates are considered a slow cure, and as pointed out nitrates (which provide no protection) need to convert to nitrites in order to begin to cure the meat and protect it. Since cure #1 has no nitrates at all there will be no residual nitrates left in the meat. As for celery powder which has only nitrates. Then you have two concerns, did you cure it long enough for nitrates to convert to enough nitrites to start curing and provide enough protection, and secondly how much residual nitrates that are still left in the meat. The fewer nitrites that were converted the less characteristic nitrite flavor you will have.
Here is a write up on commonly used cures in the U.S. Since there is so much interest in celery juice powder I may add that.
Curing Salts (http://www.susanminor.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?381-Curing-Salts)
and
Bradley Curing Salts (http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?764-Bradley-Cures&p=1162#post1162)
Posting on this in another thread, I realized that I should have included some references. For anyone who is interested in using natural cures based on celery products, some excellent work has been done by Prof. Joe Sebranek in the Dept. of Meat Science at Iowa State University.
A forewarning - the references noted below are academic in nature and are not the easiest reading (lots of what 10.5 would call $50 words). While there is no practical "how to" for the home curing enthusiast, they do treat well the issues and concerns that anyone pursuing this kind of curing will face and should know about.
The first is a pdf of a power point presentation (http://fri.wisc.edu/docs/pdf/J_Sebranek_FRI_FRESH_5_4_10.pdf) (slides).
A very important conclusion in that presentation (page 10),
It appears that natural and organic "uncured"
RTE processed meat products will permit
greater growth of L. monocytogenes and Cl.
perfringens and earlier toxin production by Cl.
botulinum than conventionally cured
products.
Next is a very full and complete paper that I highly encourage anyone contemplating using celery juice products as a nitrate/nitrite source to thoroughly read.
http://www.meatscience.org/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=5260
While the paper should be read in it's entirety, a section I would like to emphasize is Ingredients Used For Natural and Organic Cured Meats that begins on page 6. On the next page in that section a very key point is made,
A critical ingredient for processed meats with natural nitrate
sources is a nitrate-reducing bacterial culture, if typical cured meat
properties are the final objective.
Finally, a recent survey (analysis) that tested and compared natural and organic bacon with traditionally cured bacon
http://www.ans.iastate.edu/report/air/2009pdf/R2392.pdf
In that work you can see the analytical results for things like residual nitrite, salt, etc. On average the amount of residual nitrite is a bit lower in the natural/organic products but not greatly so (5.4 vs 7.1 ppm). In the discussion of the results the following was noted,
It appears that natural and organic bacon products are more variable than traditionaly-cured bacon for the quality characteristics measured in this study.
If you want to use celery juice products instead of traditional curing agents, hopefully these references will help get you on the right path, even though they aren't easy reading.
My 2 pennys worth.
Dont waste your time with it. JMO
Thanks, that's a lot of good information and i will read it all. On my first attempt with the celery powder the sausage appears darker in color and has a very good flavor.
Late entry, I hope someone sees this and picks it up, as this has been the most intelligent conversation I have seen yet on the subject.
I find the topic of the "dangerous" nitrates highly entertaining, due to my disbelief of their true harm and the fact that several of my family members swear by migraines caused by the nitrates.
Today, I showed them the Celery juice powder in their nitrate free products. I also pointed out the amount of nitrates in the spinach we will eat tonight. I make it very clear they are consuming enormous amounts of nitrates.
That said, when they eat the cheap Canadian bacon on the pizza, or bacon from Denny's, the headaches ensue.
Of course, the other reading I do indicates that nitrites can bind to hemoglobin quite well and is why they need to be avoided in infants (bacon in a bottle?). I wonder if this is something to do with the headaches people speak of. Or, is there a production of nitrous oxide leading to vasodilation, this dilation being the current hypothesis behind migraines. The mechanism is rather moot, I simply point out the nitrite seems the culprit rather than nitrate and nitrate/nitrite issue is respected by neurologists as a problem for migraine sufferers.
Now, if nitrates are converted to nitrites by bacteria, I would propose that more bacteria make more nitrites and then more headaches. I wonder if this means the cheap meats we buy from Pizza Hut or Denny's maybe have a touch more bacteria than our neighbourhood butcher who makes the super tasty bacon with all the evil Prague #1.
An alternate hypothesis, the cheaper meats are quick cured with high levels of nitrite rather than nitrate, leading to very high nitrite levels and subsequently higher chances with the migraines.
I presume the latter, as most cheap meat still must be edible pass FDA inspection.
So is the slow curing with nitrate, leading to as little production of nitrate as possible, the reason for the headaches? Dunno. Tough thing is, I doubt any argument I make will help me in my house of nitrate haters.
Quote from: bovine0001 on January 20, 2013, 11:16:07 AM
Late entry, I hope someone sees this and picks it up, as this has been the most intelligent conversation I have seen yet on the subject.
I find the topic of the "dangerous" nitrates highly entertaining, due to my disbelief of their true harm and the fact that several of my family members swear by migraines caused by the nitrates.
Today, I showed them the Celery juice powder in their nitrate free products. I also pointed out the amount of nitrates in the spinach we will eat tonight. I make it very clear they are consuming enormous amounts of nitrates.
That said, when they eat the cheap Canadian bacon on the pizza, or bacon from Denny's, the headaches ensue.
Of course, the other reading I do indicates that nitrites can bind to hemoglobin quite well and is why they need to be avoided in infants (bacon in a bottle?). I wonder if this is something to do with the headaches people speak of. Or, is there a production of nitrous oxide leading to vasodilation, this dilation being the current hypothesis behind migraines. The mechanism is rather moot, I simply point out the nitrite seems the culprit rather than nitrate and nitrate/nitrite issue is respected by neurologists as a problem for migraine sufferers.
Now, if nitrates are converted to nitrites by bacteria, I would propose that more bacteria make more nitrites and then more headaches. I wonder if this means the cheap meats we buy from Pizza Hut or Denny's maybe have a touch more bacteria than our neighbourhood butcher who makes the super tasty bacon with all the evil Prague #1.
An alternate hypothesis, the cheaper meats are quick cured with high levels of nitrite rather than nitrate, leading to very high nitrite levels and subsequently higher chances with the migraines.
I presume the latter, as most cheap meat still must be edible pass FDA inspection.
So is the slow curing with nitrate, leading to as little production of nitrate as possible, the reason for the headaches? Dunno. Tough thing is, I doubt any argument I make will help me in my house of nitrate haters.
Nitrates are everywhere. Natural in our bodies, In our food, veggys from the ground.
Yes, but excess of any substance, whether nutrient or otherwise, is not so good. I am not going to sign on to the cancer causing argument, but rather the fact that it is widely accepted that some have headaches due to cured meats. If anything, i simply ask the question "why can people get away with eating vegetable based nitrates and not certain cured meats?" I vote excessive nitrites.
Quote from: bovine0001 on January 21, 2013, 05:56:29 AM
Yes, but excess of any substance, whether nutrient or otherwise, is not so good. I am not going to sign on to the cancer causing argument, but rather the fact that it is widely accepted that some have headaches due to cured meats. If anything, i simply ask the question "why can people get away with eating vegetable based nitrates and not certain cured meats?" I vote excessive nitrites.
Whos arguing?
This is a 2 year old thread? Why bring all this up again.
If you wanna have a fit about nitrates go to another forum.