BRADLEY SMOKER | "Taste the Great Outdoors"

Consumables and Accessories => Accessories => Topic started by: Oldman on October 09, 2005, 11:46:19 am

Title: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 09, 2005, 11:46:19 am
Norbert sent these photos to me. I don't know what his handle is here so I will just call him by his name---Norbert!  ;)

The only thing he needs now is a fan in the box and she will just purrrrrr....  ;D
Click on Images to Enlarge
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/Norbert/norbertsmoker-0.jpg) (http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/Norbert/norbertsmoker.jpg)

(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/Norbert/norbertsmoker1-0.jpg) (http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/Norbert/norbertsmoker1.jpg)

(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/Norbert/norbertsmoker2-0.jpg) (http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/Norbert/norbertsmoker2.jpg)

Note to Norbert: Notice how I cut out the images you sent to me that were around the smoker. i.e. air compressor etc.. I did this so we can make the most of the real estate.

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)

Edit: I edited this posting 06.21.06 to correct the tags.

Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: nsxbill on October 09, 2005, 03:24:56 pm
So, Norbert, it looks like you have replaced the slider with the PID controller.  Good idea.  What is the story on the Oven coil.  I was going to do a salamander sealed infrared element in mine.  

http://infraredheaters.com/ceramic.htm#Type%20HTE.

DTom used these and worked pretty well

How much was the oven heating coil, source...part numbers??

Thanks for posting up the pictures, Raye!

Bill


<i>There is room on earth for all God's creatures....on my plate next to the mashed potatoes.</i>
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 09, 2005, 03:42:16 pm
The oven coil was free.  I got it from an old Back & Decker bread maker. It was the right size for the job. I didn't want to go over 250F.  Plus if you use a big element when the controller shuts off the element will keep on producing heat and overshoot the temp limit.  The smaller the element the faster it will come down in temperature.  

I will be installing a fan after the turkey that I ‘m cooking for thanks giving tomorrow.  To preserve the motor from overheating and the smoke, I will install it on the outside and the prop on the inside.  I will simply drill a hole the size of the shaft in the BS.  I will post some photo soon!  


Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: jaeger on October 10, 2005, 05:13:05 am
Nice job Norbert!!!



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/xcelsmoke/FREEGIF.gif)

<font size="4"><b>Doug</b></font id="size4">
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 10, 2005, 09:52:27 pm
I installed the temp controller and it works great.  For example I set it for 225 and cooked 3 chickens in less than 4 hrs.  The taste was remarkable with 6 maple puck.  The max temp that I can set it is 300F, witch I can reach in 10 min.  When the temp controller cut off at 225F the temps inside the BS keeps going up for 10 deg F and come back down to 225F.  The process takes 7 min depending on the vent opening and exterior temperature.  I found this to be acceptable and very economical.  
 
I also replaced the power cord witch should be done on every BS.  It came with 18/3, witch is way too small.  I’m using 14/3 because of the added element, but for all other ones it should be at least 16/3.  The larger the first number the smaller the wire.  16/3 is rated at 10amps and 14/3 at 15amps.

The controller that I used is on this page:

http://www.love-controls.com/controls/controls/controls_frame.html
 
 I used the TS Series Digital Temperature Switch because of the price and it come with the sensor probe.   It’s very easy to install with basic elec knowledge.  

Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: car54 on October 10, 2005, 10:12:15 pm
Norbert,

 It looks great but I have 2 questions.

 How many watts is your element?

 Are you using 2 PID's?

 Thanks, Brad
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 12, 2005, 03:18:48 am
Very cool Norbert.  Is this fan and motor a canidate for intra BS circulating.  You would have to mount the motor on the outside and provide some kind of shaft bearing to the fan blades inside, but it looks doable.  http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?ItemKey=7C722
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 12, 2005, 03:04:19 pm
This is the blade I use on my fan.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?ItemId=1611631590

And it cost $2.08 verses $17.97 [^]

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 12, 2005, 04:40:47 pm
Hi Olds, The $17.97 includes a motor.  Your $2.08 fan is on page 3744. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/viewCatalogPDF.shtml?browserCompatable=true&adobeCompatable=true&toolbar=false&CatPage=3744
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 12, 2005, 05:03:43 pm
Oops! Olds, Sorry for the redundancy, my monitor is 10 years older than my BS and I missed the link in your posting.

Regards-Tom-
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Phone Guy on October 12, 2005, 07:05:32 pm
What was the cost to get this PID working on your BS? How long did it take? Did you have to cut the Smoker to fit the controller in?
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 12, 2005, 09:58:07 pm
Is the TS switch a PID?
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: nsxbill on October 13, 2005, 01:21:24 am
It looks like the PID replaced the sliding switch, and it now controls the temp..  The beauty of the PID is that it learns the capability of the "heater" and holds the temp within a couple of degrees of whatever you set.  

I am speaking from some experience, as I have one I bought for one of my espresso machines to control the boiler.  They are great, accurate, digital and very efficient.  I bought mine on Ebay. Mine converts AC 250V to control DC Thermocouple with a SSR that is DC.  They configure them differently, and I assume the the one used on this smoker is AC in and AC out to just make an infinitely controllable switch to replace the slider.

Bill

<i>There is room on earth for all God's creatures....on my plate next to the mashed potatoes.</i>
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 13, 2005, 03:04:37 am
Hi Bill, I sort of know how a PID functions but I wasn't at all sure after reading the specs. on the 40 Series Digital Temperature Switch(I think that is what Norbert installed) is a PID and not a switched temperature controller. The link is http://www.love-controls.com/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?source=ts&direction=back.  If you have time check it out and let me know what you think.


-Tom-
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 13, 2005, 01:34:12 pm
Hi

I used the TS Series Digital Temperature Switch.  It's AC and it is rated for 15 amps.  Because of its size and simplicity it was very easy to replace the slider with it.  You have to cut the slider hole bigger to fit it.  It also came with a plastic stopper to lock it in place.  In the back of the switch you have 2 screws for the power that feed the controller, 2 for the probe and 2 for the element; witch is connected like a switch.  It work great but the extra element is required.  I used a 750 watts witch is very good but I recommend anything from 500 to 1000 watts and it as to fit the only evadable space where it install mine.  

I can say now that this is a fantastic smoker.  No more guessing.  The right amount of smoke and the right temperature what else do you need to cook and smoke.  I changed my mind on the fan.  I will not install one, it’s not required with the added element the heat is well distributed in the smoker.  I don’t even have to rotate the racks for even cooking.  


Sory about the delay.

Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: nsxbill on October 13, 2005, 02:44:52 pm
Tom G

I really wish tyour controller had been available when I was contemplating the "souping-up" of my Rancilio Silvia espresso machine.  The PID I have is one that Auto Tunes to the application.  The different outputs were not available.  Mine is an Omega.  It is like the Love control and here is a picture of the one I bought.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/nsxbill/bf_1_b.jpg)

I never installed it.  I picked up a Commercial Espresso machine and decided to sell off the Silvia, and thought it best to keep it stock.  I am glad I didn't modify it.  If I decide to retire soon, I am going to pick up a used Prevost Bus/RV conversion, and the heck with just coffee on the road.  I will just install the espresso machine and the Rocky Grinder somewhere in the galley of the bus.

Quite the coffee snob, I roast my own beans, and just cannot stand restaurant coffee, nor the crap they sell at Starbucks which is alledgedly "fresh."  Boiler control for the perfect shot of espresso is crucial, and the PID was the solution so many have used to make their espresso machine sing!

The new machine I bought can pull 40-50 drinks an hour were I ever to need to do that, and the boiler is not a problem.

Check out my set-up:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/nsxbill/S27.jpg)

For those who want to infinitely control the temp of their Bradley, and don't want to constantly be outside sliding the switch, this is a good solution.  

I have the Procom4 and Raptor setup, and love it.  I love it because I can tweak the cabinet temp from wherever I want in the house or on the property.  If I am lounging in the pool, my controller is in a waterproof bag, and I always know what the temp of the cabinet(s) is/are, and can up the heat remotely, or just let it run and control temp until the meat reaches the desired temp.

With the new electronics, I am sure someone will come up with something that works.  I don't think it will better than the Procom4 setup, but I am sure it will be a lot cheaper.

I have no regrets about forsaking the constant sliding of the switch an opting for the capability of remote monitoring and control.  I wish it would have been cheaper, but what the hell, buying toys like this is a benefit for still working even though I have retired twice.

I do love the toys!

Bill

<i>There is room on earth for all God's creatures....on my plate next to the mashed potatoes.</i>
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 17, 2005, 08:20:18 am
Tom G,
Sorry about my mistake in pricing.

Now the unit you listed bearings are sleeve. That page does not tell me the how long the shaft is.

When I did the first prototype the shaft was 1 9/16". The amount of heat being passed to the motor via the fan blade and shift over heated the motor. I had to add a second fan blade on the outside of the box on the shaft. This acted as a heat sink. I also added a heat sink to the back bearings.  The shaft at only 1 9/16" is very tight to get all of this done. A real pain in the ares...

IMO the sleeve bearings will not hold up to the heat over a period of time.  This is the motor I settled on for my own unit. Cframe motor (http://"http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1611772183") I have tested this one for hours on end at 240-270 F and it has never offered to shut itself down from high heat.

I took it and ran it with both fans on the shaft for 2 hours with the heat off. Measured the temperature of the housing on the bearings.  Then I  fired  up the box for a couple of hours. Now I don't remember the temperatures, but with the extra heat sinks I do remember the bearing casing did not get any hotter when it was running in a hot box verses when the heat was off. However, I believe without the second fan on the outside of the box, and the back heat sink the motor will over heat.

When I add a controller to the box, I'm going to have to remove the fan. When I do I'm going to make an adjustment in the size of the inside hole.  Those walls are so thin I cannot see in my mind's eye any way of mounting bears for the shaft. I'm going to make the inside hole a little larger than it currently is.

Those two walls are so then if you are not careful with your design for a mounting bracket you will have flexing problems.

I don't know how far Chez is on the production model. I told him I would come up with a blade cover, but I have not really had the time as of late.

The main reason I looked at this motor is its shaft is 2". Believe me you are going to need it too~!

Also be forwarned the high temp wires go about midway up the back of that box.

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: zipclean on October 17, 2005, 04:08:18 pm
NORBERT, what kind of extra heat set up did you use for your smoker,and where did you put it?I live in Saskatchewan and can always use extra heat this time of year.Just ordered a TS thermostat to replace the slider but would like to add an extra elemenet
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 17, 2005, 05:43:19 pm
Hey Olds, I think my wife is right when she says I have way too much free time on my hands.  She insists that the BS Forum has pushed me over the sanity edge and that my money would be much better spent on psychotherapy.  Here is what you, Soupnazi, Norbert, Bill, car54 and others have caused me to do in the past 2 weeks.  Purchase, but not yet install Soupnazi’s PAK P64A temp controller, purchase car54’s PID controller(for which I now have to find a 10+ amp relay), ordered Bill’s Salamander 1000 watt, ceramic infrared heat emitter, and finally this weekend I picked up, at a garage sale, a four channel dig. Temp. monitor with four probes so I can simultaneously record temps in four different areas of the BS oven.  I’ve got a suspicion that Norbert’s setup, replacing the BS slide with the Love TS switch and exchanging the stock heating element with a higher wattage ceramic heater may be the least expensive and cleanest looking upgrade.  My “experiment” with simultaneous temp readings should quantitate  intra oven temp differences and the need to move racks or increase circulation. After reading this over my shoulder, my better half now wants to know what I’ve been using as a source in the smoke generator and maybe I shouldn’t stand so close to the vent when smoke is pouring out of it.  Women just don’t get it!

LOL-Tom-
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 18, 2005, 12:02:59 am
Hi Oldman!

Why don't you use a fan from a convection oven?  It’s made for that purpose and it can withstand the heat.  

http://www.fluent.com/solutions/examples/x102.htm

You could go to sears and look at a floor model with the convection option then with the model number you could order the fan.

Good lock!

Norbert

Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 18, 2005, 01:13:50 am
Hi Zipclean

You really need and extra element, go for it.  You won’t believe it.  This smoker does magic with a little more heat.  If you look at the photos that Oldman post for me, ‘’by the way I never thanked him.  Sorry!   Thanks Oldman!’’ you can see that I installed the 750Watts bread maker element on the right side just below the drip tray.  You could use any smaller element.  It will be more accurate because the controller will go on and off more often.  I think this is the only spot available.  On the other side you have the brisket burner and you can’t go higher then the drip tray.  I don’t know where TomG will install is ceramic heater.  O by the way TomG you should always use a SCR witch is a solid state relay.  A relay will go on and off many times over a 12 hrs period and the contact on it will burn easily.  A SCR is also much easier to connect.     Four screws two for the switch and two for the power. http://www.power-io.com/products/hda.htm.

Zipclean, you should use a dremel with metal cuter disc to fit the TS in.  It was very accurate and did a good job.  Don’t forget to replace the power cord.  Use 14/3.  All the wiring inside the BS is very good but the 18/3 power cord is not even the right size for a 500Watts element plus a 300W burner, we dont even use that size for a lamp.  

Norbert    


       
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 18, 2005, 03:49:39 am
First let me say I've enjoyed this thread.

TomG,
I know just what you are talking about. Especially when it come to my gaming rig. I'm a 55 year old gaming kid. I'm looking at a $700.00 Video card for a game that is still 5-6 months out before it is released. Oh well, how does that saying go??? The difference between a boy and a man is measured only by the price of their toys. [:D]

Norbert,

I looked at several convection ovens and I did not find one that would not cost me one rack due to size. Next I did not find one that would not cause a problem with smoke coming back out of the generator--too many cfm.

My fan blade is 2" and it is between the top of the V pan and below the bottom of the lowest rack.
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/fan1.jpg)

 <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I changed my mind on the fan. I will not install one, it’s not required with the added element the heat is well distributed in the smoker. I don’t even have to rotate the racks for even cooking.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
At 35 cfm I found only a 2 degree difference between the top of the V pan and the very top of the box. Before that there was much difference. Now this might not be important if you doing a pulled pork, but it is very important if you doing a refined sausage.

Perhaps you might check your box empty with a probe. I think you are going to find it hotter at the bottom of the box than at the top. If you do check it I suggest dropping the probe through the vent and when I tested mine I had the vent opened just enough to keep the smoke from coming back out the generator.

In this picture you can see that the smoke is being pulled gently back into the box. (35 cfm) This picture was taken after the door had been opened for a good minute or so.
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/smoke3.jpg)

Now I have a question for you. Which of the Solid State relays did you use. Is it the HAA-3V25?

BTW You are welcome about the pictures and any time you need something posted/ hosted let me know.



Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 18, 2005, 12:38:24 pm
Hi!

Oldman! I'm also going to buy the ASUS EN7800GTX PCI-E 256MB.  It’s the fastest card on the market. But to make a real difference from what I have now I will first replace my CPU for an AMD Athlon 64 X2 S939 3800+ (400) 1MB.  Can’t wait to try it with HL2

The SCR Relay that I’m recommending is the HAA-3V25 up to 25A, 24-330V max, 100-280 VAC activated.  These relay are versatile and they can be use anywhere.  It’s a good idea to use one with a costly controller.  

I’m still not going to install a fan.  I’m mainly using my smoker for Pull pork, brisket, ribs, chicken and venison, but I agree with you Oldman, if you are doing cold smoke salmon or refined sausage, you need the fan.  

Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 18, 2005, 06:50:21 pm
Norbert,

I have not hit the wall yet with my AMD XP3200. Then again I don't game HL2. I'm a Ghost Recon fan... However, if GR3 does not come out for the PC platform I'm going to look for another 1st person shooter.

Did you see this movie of GR3 yet? Take about graphics~~! Look at the face in the last sceen.

http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/GR3_E3_trailer.wmv

The sad part is it has been push back to Feb 06. There are two types of game play I do the most. Pistols only, and as a sniper.

I just recently joined a sniper clan and man are those boys goood....

This is my gaming sig pic:
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/bads-old.jpg)

You ever want a change then come on over...these boys will bleed ya all over those maps~~! LOL!!!! Each game is 15 minutes long, but you only get 2 respawns...so it get tough just making it through the whole game alive.

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 20, 2005, 05:12:32 pm
Finally got my Kenco temp. controller plug and play.  If I were to go this route again I'd get their prewired version for $50 more.  Setup per Oldman's suggestion, with the box hooked up to power and BS heater feed, RTD  probe down the vent and BS temp slide to max, the control worked beautifully, holding temps(monitored with a calibrated dig. thermometer) at 85, 140, and 225 degrees for at least 3hours each with an accuracy of +-2 degrees and ambient 55-70.

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pakcontrola.jpg)
Harness assembled with AC cord and terminal strip
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/Pakcontrl.jpg)
Controller mounted on 1/4" ABS plastic sheet and wired.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pakcontrl2.jpg)
The "box" ready to P&P
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 22, 2005, 02:56:28 pm
I almost went that route TomG. Now don't laugh but I liked Norbert's set up so much I have order that controller--laughing at my self... [:0]

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 23, 2005, 03:24:38 am
Aaaaaaaaghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![xx(]
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: rgardjr on October 24, 2005, 10:09:59 pm
Well I haven't been around the forums here for a while, but I'm glad I came back because I really want to upgrade to use this PID.  I've read this thread and I just want to make sure I understand what I'd be getting myself into.  Looking for some confirmation that the PID I'd want is the TS-13010 based on this:
(http://www.love-controls.com/images/controls/ts/ts_order.gif)
Then I'd need to install a heating element (I've got an old bread machine collecting dust with a 750 Watt element.  The original heating element in the Bradley is completely bypassed once I install this-correct?  Also there was some talk in this thread about the use of a relay or SRC-educate me on AC relays.  I've got plenty of experience on the DC side with automotive Bosch style relays, but I've never used an AC relay before.  Also upgrade the power cords to the 14 gauge variety.  Any help you can offer is greatly appreciated!
Thanks-
Rick
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 24, 2005, 11:44:23 pm
Hi Rick, I'm a little confused about the TS switch myself.  From what I understand it is not a PID(Proportional-Integral-Derivative) controller, it's a digital switch with an internal SPST relay which I don't think is solid state and may be why Norbert recommends a SRC. It seems to me if one has to buy a SSR(solid state relay), you might be better off with one of Coldfusionx's eBay real PIDs for $35-45 which includes a K type thermocouple.  Pulling the BS heater and replacing it with a Salamander 700 W ceramic still seems like a pretty hot setup.   It's a little late but next time I'll try to look before I leap.
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: rgardjr on October 25, 2005, 12:14:49 am
TomG I'm still trying to figure out this relay situation.  Wouldn't the solid state relay have to be triggered by the mechanical relay in the switch?  I guess I'm a little confused about what the benefit is.  Is it because you wouldn't be running the power to the element from the relay in the TS swtich?  I mean the relay in the TS switch would still be opening and closing (wearing itself out)-correct?  Any kind of wiring diagram or schematic might help me understand this a little more.
Thanks-
Rick
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 25, 2005, 01:34:18 am
I'm winging this and I hope the experts chime in if I'm wrong.  My impression is that the TS's relay is mechanical and that ideally it would last longer if the load across it's contacts was only the milliamps that are required to control the solid state(contactless) relay. When the latter is activated it would carry the amps necessary for the heating element load and apparently since there are no physical contacts that relay would last forever. So it's a two switch system, the relay in the controller activates the SSR which activates the heater. Sorry I haven't figured out how to post diagrams, but I'm sure some can help.
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 25, 2005, 10:04:31 am
Norbert,

What are you using for a heat sink on the relay? If you did use one did you install it under with the controller? How are you venting it? From the specs it looks like 185 F is its max operating temp. I'm not sure how hot it gets under the box.

Thanks!

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: car54 on October 25, 2005, 11:04:08 am
Olds,
 That is one reason why I have my PID in a stand alone box. I have an infrared thermometer and it gained about 4 derees above the ambient temp. Also since it is a stand alone unit, if any thing goes wrong with it I can still use the Bradley controls.

 Brad
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 25, 2005, 02:40:05 pm
Hi

You’re right the TS use a SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw Relay) it’s an electromagnetic switch witch is a mechanical relays mainly use in automotive.  The 16 amp can do the job but when I received it I liked it so mush that I didn’t want to hurt it so, I installed a SCR.  Oldmen, if you turn on your BS for a couple of hrs touch you slider cover or to be sure remove the two screws and insert a meat thermometer in a the crack you will see that the temp stays pretty cool.  The box is insulated and the eat rise.  My SCR is just beside the controller on the right with no heat sink.  I think the plastic they use for that cover is shaped at 190°f so if the temp goes that high then the BS would be ruin.    

Rick, I’m using both element, I found that the temp reach the desired level faster and since its there why not?  If you install the bread maker element, take the back cover off and install it the same way it’s in the bread maker.  I simply drilled two holes the size of the element and a smaller one in the center for the screw, it doesn’t mater if the element touch the smoker the top coat is insulated with ceramic from the electrical element inside.  Screw the element from the back and don’t forget the bracket in the right front.  To put the back cover back on, you will have to cut an opening so that the two protruding wire don’t touch any thing.  I’m sure that you wont have any problems, it simple and easy to do for anybody with a little bit of skill and tools.  A Dremel is crucial for the success of this project.      

This is the description I got for my switch:  The TS is a digital temperature switch.  It is designed for many heating and cooling applications.   The user is able to program 12 different parameters including set point, hysteresis (retardation of the switching ex: +- 5°F), cycle time, and ambient probe adjustment using the tactile front keypad.  The unit features error or alarm messaging and password protection.  16 amp relays, temperature display in °F or °C, and 110 VAC, 230 VAC, or 12 VDC power supplies.  The TS includes a thermistor with 5 ft cable, fitting clips for panel mounting, and instruction manual.  

When I called the rep at Mod-Tronic at 1-800-794-5883 or (905)450-6322 he made it very easy for me. He explained all the options and I got it three weeks later.

If you are tired of eating pork jerky, turkey jerky, sausage jerky, fish jerky and every thing else jerky  then you need higher temperature.  The meat as to reach the right temperature before all the water evaporates from it.  Three years ago I build a brick smoker and the food was pretty good but inconsistent.  The down side was that I couldn’t leave it for to long.  With the setup that I have now, I can leave it all day and eat a fantastic meal for super.  Set the temp, the timer and six wood pucks and there it is the best brisket.

Like we say in French: bonne bouf!
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: rgardjr on October 25, 2005, 09:57:16 pm
How does this look for a wiring diagram of sorts.  I left off the temp probe on the TS Temp Switch.  I think I'm on the right track here.  Did I mess anything up?
Thanks-
Rick

INCORRECT DIAGRAM REMOVED TO AVOID CONFUSION
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 25, 2005, 10:08:31 pm
Car 54,
 <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> if any thing goes wrong with it I can still use the Bradley controls.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Very good point~~! *Olds now is re-thinking*


Norbert<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> My SCR is just beside the controller on the right with no heat sink.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Ummm I ordered the one with the heat sink...

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 25, 2005, 10:21:39 pm
Hi Rick

 your diagram is wrong.  I will send you the right one in a min!

Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 25, 2005, 10:29:02 pm
Norbert,

E-mail it to me and I will post it for the group.

<b><font color="blue">Old's E-mail Addy.</font id="blue"></b> (http://"raye@rminor.com")

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 25, 2005, 10:41:33 pm
It's in your mailbox Oldman.  Thanks!

Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 26, 2005, 01:29:30 am
Norbert, do all SSRs have SCRs, if not what is the advantage?
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 26, 2005, 09:20:45 am
<font size="4"><b>Deleted see posting below</b>.</font id="size4">
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 26, 2005, 10:59:52 am
<font size="4"><b>Deleted see posting below</b>.</font id="size4">
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 26, 2005, 02:19:10 pm
Oldman I send you the new drawing.

I wish I could be there to help; I’m more of a visual person.  Anyway <b>supply</b>, means the energy the controller will use to work. So when you plug your BS in the wall, the controller must receive power to start its process.  The order of the wire doesn’t really matter, its AC.  

The <b>load</b> is the switching effect of the TS.  It’s like there is a little guy in the controller that will switch on or of depending on your program and what the probe is reading.  The 8amp and 16amp should be the same but I can see that they show on the 8amp, 9 and 10 normally close so use 10 and 11.  The order of the wire doesn’t matter it’s a switch.   It’s the same for the probe no order in the wire.

I would like to tank you for reminding me of the temperature effect on the SCR.  I went back to my Malvino principles and yes it would be prudent to install the SCR on the outside of the BS.  Mine is working great but I will move the SCR anyway.  

Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 26, 2005, 05:49:44 pm
<b><font size="4">Edited out for correction. See below posting for diagram.</font id="size4"></b>
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: rgardjr on October 26, 2005, 06:18:14 pm
Thanks for the diagram and all your help.  Just waiting for parts to show up now.  On to my next question about configuring the TS Temp Switch.  Do you just set a set point (SP) at the temp you want, differential (r0) to 1,  and set d0 to Ht for heating control.  I wasn't sure if I needed to do anything with the Min stop time for load (c0) or continuous cycle time (c1).  Once again Thanks to Norbert and Oldman for their help with this project.
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: rgardjr on October 26, 2005, 06:54:01 pm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Oldman</i>
I take it then that line #9 feeds both L1 and T1 in this picture.
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/switch.jpg)

Which one goes to the heating element? A2 or A1?  If I had to guess I would say A1.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That picture is not the exact same SCR that we need for our application.  It's DC powered.  But the switched portion is the L1 and T1.  So it looks to me like Pin 9 would go to T1 and then L1 would go out to one side of both elements.

But now that I'm looking at the diagram I guess I'm a little confused.  I thought the purpose of the SCR was so that the load wouldn't be traveling accross the relay in the TC Switch.  Help me out here because it looks like the load would be crossing both relays-would either of these changes work:
(http://www.denalitrucks.com/coppermine/cpg132/albums/userpics/10013/layout3%20copy.jpg)

Again my knowledge of AC is pretty limited (as anyone that saw my purposed wiring diagram yesterday could easily see).  Right or wrong?
Thanks-
Rick
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 26, 2005, 07:03:55 pm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That picture is not the exact same SCR that we need for our application. It's DC powered. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I know but you know how companies are... one general set of directions for everything today.  I did get the AC 110 model.

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 26, 2005, 10:23:23 pm
The black feed as to go only to the TS so that when the TS is switch off you don’t have live wire all over the place.  In real life the connection on the drawing is a wire join.  The power will be on both side of the SCR when the TS switch on. This way the SCR will switch on and the power will go trough the SCR switch and complete the circuit to feed the other side of the element.

Don’t forget that the SCR works like a relay.  I didn't want to confuse you by numbering the SCR on my drawing, because they are all different and the one you are showing is a DC.  One side is for the load and the other for the switch.  The order of the wire doesn't matter as long as you use the proper side to feed it and the other for the switch.  The little drawing I did on the SCR represents the switch.

I see that you’re having fun connecting all this together.  I recommend that you try the schematic with a 110ac light bulb in place of the element.  You will have to connect everything as per the drawing on your bench.  That way you will see how simple this is.  Also you could put the light in an enclose area with the probe.  That way when the light turns on it will heat the probe and switch the TS on and off.  Then you can program the TS anyway you want and see the result immediately.   Soon this will be all over and you won’t have any thing to do.  So take your time and enjoy it.      
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: rgardjr on October 26, 2005, 11:05:23 pm
Norbert-
Did you have a chance to see my question about the load crossing the TS relay?  I thought the purpose of the SCR was to keep the load off the TS relay?  Is it O.K. because the TS relay has already been closed by the time the load is needed because the SCR relay closes second?  Again, I'm just a little confused about what the SCR is for at this point.
Thanks-
Rick
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 27, 2005, 11:44:15 am
You’re right Rick sorry.  The modification you made to the drawing is the right way.  I’ve look at my BS and this is how I did it the first time the correct way.  I drew this diagram by memory.  I guess my memory is not that good.  Like I said earlier I’m more of a visual person.  

Norbert
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: rgardjr on October 27, 2005, 06:04:33 pm
Norbert-
No problem at all.  I just wanted to make sure that I understood the circuit and it looks like I do now.  Remember, I didn't have a clue how to wire this up before you posted your diagram so I'm very grateful that you did.
Thanks-
Rick
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: bubbagump on October 29, 2005, 04:32:21 pm
Hi Guys,

I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. While I am not yet an expert in the art of smoking and cannot provide much input in that arena, the electrical field is something I do specialize in and would like to offer some input to clarify a few things.

First, the 18/3 power cord that is on the <u>stock</u> Bradley smoker, as purchased, is sized adequately. The smoker does have the ETL label of approval on the back, which is similar to a UL listing. So I wouldn't be concerned about changing it. As long as you don't mess with the fuse size (10 amp.) the unit is safe as designed.

When sizing power cords for appliances you don't go by the standard rule for wiring sizing as in construction, i.e. 12 gauge - 20 amp., 14 gauge - 15 amp. ect. and so on. This is all part of the inspection and testing process that the product goes through before making it to the market. Take a look at your toaster or hair dryer (for those of you that still need a hair dryer) you'll see what I mean.

Second, the TS series switch is not a PID, as someone pointed out. It is really nothing more than a line voltage thermostat with a lot more bells and whistles.

Norbert keeps referring to using an SCR, which I'm sure he means an SSR, which is a solid state relay. An SCR is a component of an SSR. The use of an SSR (solid state relay) with the TS series switch is really unnecessary. The 16 amp. rated switch is sized more than adequate to give long, reliable service life when using it with the BS, even if you add an additional heating element. The amount of switching that occurs with the TS switch is nothing compared to what goes on when using a PID controller.

You really only need to use an SSR when using a PID controller. The PID will switch the load (heating element in our case) numerous times a minute and sometimes only for fractions of seconds as it gets closer to setpoint. A typical electro-mechanical relay will not last under this kind of work load, so this where the SSR comes into play. This type of rapid switching does not go on with a line voltage thermostat. The rapid switching of the SSR by the PID prevents overshooting your setpoint, which is what you will experience using the TS switch, or any line voltage thermostat, especially if you add additional heating elements, which will increase the amount of residual heat in the box. It really depends how close to setpoint you want the BS to stay at, as to whether you use a line voltage thermostat or a PID controller. But again, using an SSR with a line voltage thermostat is unnecessary. Just size the thermostat appropriately and you'll be fine. Also, when using an SSR <u>always</u> order one with normally open contacts. You can get them both ways normally open or normally closed. You <u>do not</u> want normally closed.

Now one final observation and comment. I've read a lot of posts since joining here about modifications being made to their smoker. For those of us that like to tinker with things that's half the fun of owning the BS. I'm actually in the process of adding a PID controller to mine.

But one word of caution. <u>Please</u> do not attempt any modifications to the electrical system of your BS unless you are absoulutely sure about what you are doing. At the risk of sounding dramatic, an improper modification can result in a death.

Think about it. The BS is a big metal box, used outside, and plugged into an electrical outlet. The testing and inspection process it went through to get it into the marketplace ensured that it was safe to use as designed. Once modifications are made to it you take on that responsibility.

Also, be sure that your BS is plugged into a GFCI protected circuit  and test it often.

Trust me, I'm not making these statements out of arrogance but more out of a concern for your safety and that of your family. I know of an incident where a person improperly wired something that resulted in the death of his young twin daugthers. Although the father thought he knew what he was doing, he in fact didn't and it ended in a horrible tragedy.

So have fun, but please be safe and get help if needed.

Thanks,


Bubbagump
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 29, 2005, 06:17:39 pm
Ummm so now I have a SSR coming I don't really need... Oh well such is life and if this is the biggest problem I've ever have then I don't have one.

I read one small review that said this unit would hold a + / - 1 degree... well that works for me if in fact it does. I will not be adding another element as my unit gets hot as it is.

So if I understand this correctly all I have to do is hook 6 wires to this TS. Two for the probe (#1 and #2.) Two for power in,(#10 and #11.) Two for power out to the element (#8 and #9.) If this is correct then this is a piece-o-cake. The only other item I will need to address is the mechanical grounding. If this is the case I will do much testing to see what + / - temp. swings I get.

Seeing how fast an element cools down helps lower temp. swings I got a feeling that my fan's air flow will come into play here. This ought to be interesting...as I have the older glass type element and not the newer metal style. In fact I have an extra glass element.

Yepper this ought to be cotton-pickin' interesting.

(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/16amp.jpg)

Thanks all for your input concerning this matter. Everyone who has posted concerning this matter has been of a great help and while some information is in error, it is the spirit of taking one's time to reach out and offer help/ advice that counts in my book. Again all much thanks... this is what makes this site so nice to be a member of... [^] Good Job All~~~! [:p]

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: bubbagump on October 29, 2005, 07:39:30 pm
Olds,

Your diagram is correct.

I do have one suggestion if you use the TS, or any line voltage thermostat to control the BS. That is, leave the slide reostat in place. Doing so will allow you to control the BS temp. with a little more precision.

You can slide the reostat to high when warming up the BS, and when first placing your meat into it to get it up to temp quicker. Once the BS is up to temp, you can experiment by sliding it down a bit. This will allow the BS to reach setpoint more gradually when cycling and help offset some of the overshoot by cutting down on the amount of residual heat that running the element on high would result in.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 29, 2005, 07:46:50 pm
Good point....I had already decided to do a box and have it as a plug and play. I think it was TomG that made the point about that if the controller dieing and if it was hard wired  that the smoker would be down.

Well I've got the TS and next week I think I will make a clear box for it with outlets. Between this unit and my fan my Bradley will purr like a soft woman... [^]

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: bubbagump on October 29, 2005, 09:03:17 pm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Oldman</i>
<br />Between this unit and my fan my Bradley will purr like a soft woman... [^]

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks Olds, I'm getting a nice visual on this one. [:D]

Bubbagump
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Norbert on October 30, 2005, 03:13:50 pm
Hi

Thanks Bubbagump for your ideas it’s appreciated except for the dying part, unless I bring my smoker in the Jacuzzi I don’t think it’s going to kill my daughters.  I’m not an engineer but I’ve worked as an electrician in the army many years ago and this project is not that complicated.   The members of this forum that have showed some interest in this modification I think are very intelligent even more then me so I don’t think we should worry.  You know I have a motorcycle and the only people who think that I might kill my self are my wife, my mother and mother in law.  If I listen to them I would close the shop, sell every thing and watch TV.  I think that’s why it’s so popular.    


To really know the facts on SSR and SCR please read this page from Branom instrument co.  It’s very enlightening.  
http://www.branom.com/literature/scr.html

To calculate the wire size, go to this page:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

I’m thankful I was able to share this modification with you all.  With your help I was able to fine tune my BS and got it to do what I wanted.  Thanks!  

Norbert    

Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: car54 on October 30, 2005, 04:39:06 pm
Norbert,

 I went to the site for wire sizes and the smallest guage that they list is 14. Even if you plug in 1 foot and 1 amp, it still comes up 14 guage. I believe bubbagump is correct.

Brad
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: bubbagump on October 30, 2005, 05:27:04 pm
Hi Norbert,

As I mentioned in my previous reply, my statements were made out of concern for safety, and not arrogance. I did not mean to imply, in any way, that your modification would kill you or your family, or anyone else for that matter. Nor did I suggest that no one should attempt modifications to their smoker. But making modifications to the electrical system of any appliance without a thorough understanding of what one is doing can possibly result in injury or death, regardless of whether you take it into your Jacuzzi, or not. I'm sorry, you may not like the way that sounds, but it's a fact that has unfortunately been proven too many times.

I do agree you that your project is not complicated. That is, for someone with a moderate amount of electrical knowledge, but not everyone has experience in that area. So what may seem straight forward and simple to one person, may be completely foreign to another. So the point was, and still is, a person should not attempt any modification to the electrical system of their BS unless they are absolutely sure of what they are doing. And if there not they should seek help (hands on) from someone that does.

As far as the SSR/SCR issue goes, An SSR (solid state relay) can be one of two output types, MOSFET or SCR. Your link describes an SCR Power Controller. Definitely not something you would be using to control your BS heating element.

The wire sizing chart your link points to is, again, based on the electrical construction industry. It has nothing to do with sizing appliance cords. The reason that Car54 kept coming up with #14 gauge wire is because that is the smallest allowable wire size used in electrical construction.

Like I said before, check your toaster or hair dryer. I have an 1150 watt (9.5 amp) toaster with a 2 wire 18 gauge cord. My wife's hair dryer is 1650 watts (13.75 amps) and is supplied by a 2 wire 16 gauge cord. Both of these appliances, as does the BS, have thermal overload protection built into them. And as I said before, the testing that appliances go through to get into the marketplace ensure they operate safely as designed and built.

I apologize for any misunderstanding there was from my previous post and I hope this clears things up.

Take care,

Bubbagump
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on October 30, 2005, 10:44:52 pm
Hey Guys you all really want to know what a problem is?????????


I just check my TS and it rattles when you shake it... I cannot seem to win on this one... [V]

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on October 31, 2005, 04:16:11 pm
Hi Bubbagump,  thanks for the informative perspective.  I started on this good to better effort because the slide on my stock BS rheostat had a 140-250 degree range in the last ¼” of its right sided excursion.  BS very kindly sent me a replacement, but before I had a chance to install it, I fell into the Accessory Forum’s fun filled technical can of worms.  The last time I heard PID was the acronym for pelvic inflammatory disease and SSR was Social Security Recipient. I had so much fun putting together the Pakstat P & P controller I’ve decided to do the same with a Coldfusion PID and a
SSR in the box.  About the BS slide, because of its nonlinear temperature scaling and not knowing whether or not it would hold a steady temp at its max setting, I was thinking about jumping the switching legs to the rheostat and completely eliminating the rheostat variability by taking it out of the loop. Shouldn’t using a PID give me all the control needed?  FYI there is a new PID being offered on eBay as Buy it Now for $32.99http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Digital-PID-Temperature-Control-Controller_W0QQitemZ7557779705QQcategoryZ50926QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem.  It doesn’t come with a sensor but it has many programmable options like being able to specify C/F, sensor type, etc., and it’s  $10-15 cheaper  than the Coldfusion controller.  Also, I think a hardware store purchased 9’ air conditioner extension cord, cut in half, makes an easy I/O cord set for a P&P box.
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: bubbagump on October 31, 2005, 10:19:37 pm
Hi TomG,

Yes, you could bypass the rheostat all together, but I like the idea Car54 had about leaving it in place just in case there is a problem with your PID sometime down the road. All he has to do is just unplug his PID box and connect his BS back the way it was originally. I would just slide the rheostat all the way to the right rather than bypass it, and your PID should control things just fine.

Your idea of using a pre-made cord set is a good one. It is much better to purchase a cord with factory molded ends like you are thinking of, than making your own cord.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: jb9 on November 01, 2005, 04:00:58 am
I'm thinking of joining the "build your own temp controller" club, and I'm wondering what SSR you guys are using. Any resources for cheap ones that can handle enough current? I'm thinking of making a programmable one (1 hr at 220, 3 hrs at 180, that kind of thing).

Also, do you guys know of any sources for thermistors/thermocouples that are good for use in the BS? I'd like something that's all put together already, much like the "smoker temp" one that goes with my digital thermometer (a Maverick). I found a spare probe for a polder on Amazon, but it's the kind made to go into meat, not be exposed to air.
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: bubbagump on November 02, 2005, 01:47:26 am
Hi jb9,

I purchased an SSR manufactured by Crydom - http://www.crydom.com. You can find links to their distributors on there site. If you're not sure what you need or want just call their tech. support department, they are very helpful.

My thermocouple I purchased from Omega - http://www.omega.com. Again, you can talk to tech. support and they are also very helpful. They will custom make any thermocouple to your specifications. I had them install a plug end on mine and I then purchased a thermocouple jack from them, which I installed in my smoker. That way I can just unplug the thermocouple from the jack when I'm done and store it away.



Bubbagump
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on November 02, 2005, 04:38:40 pm
Hi jb9,

I found everything I needed in one week on eBay.  3 new Crydom SSRs for $16.95, Coldfusions PID for $35 and various thermocouples for $4-7 each from Bill, kulastcp@aol.com.  He will apparently customize almost any thermocouple to your specs.  I didn’t ask about thermistors.

Bubbagump,  I did a test run with the PID and a 20 A SSR as a P&P.  It took almost an hour for the controller to find and maintain the set temp(150), once there it held at +- 2 degrees.  The system in its current configuration cycles an unbelievable 2-3/min.  The PID stayed cool but the SSR heated up a little(probably 115-120 degrees). Are you going to use a SSR heatsink?

Tom
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: TomG on November 02, 2005, 09:06:03 pm
On second thought jb9, if you haven't started the project yet, you might want to wait and see how Oldman does with his plug and play version of the TS Digital Controller.  For $50 you get the controller and a sensor. Since it is rated at 18 Amps you don't need an extra SSR. Hard to beat at that price. All you would have to do is wire it with I/O power cords and put it in a box.
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: Oldman on November 02, 2005, 09:43:47 pm
Read this first.....
http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2499

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker
Post by: car54 on November 05, 2005, 10:38:09 pm
Olds,
 I sent a email to you through the forum. I am wondering with all the filters and security on your side if you recieved it.

Brad