I ain't no doctor and I ain't making any claims but........
Ok, from my research I've found that nitrites and nitrates are "added" to commercial processes in smoked meet in order to help the preservation process. (Read long shelf life at the supermarkets)
Sodium Nitrite is added (6%) to a cure/brine prior to the smoking process. The smoking process actually starts converting the nitrite into nitrate – the bad stuff.....however, the amount equates to ¼ ounce per 100lbs of meat! In my opinion, really to low to cause any concerns unless you eat it non-stop/every day, but who buys that much smoked stuff at the store anyway?
So.........since I use sea salt (98% sodium chloride) and sea salt does not contain nitrites, I'm not getting nitrites in my smoking process.
The cancer stuff we've been reading about refers to commercially smoked and available meats/fish/sausages....
"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Fuzzy, actually I believe you have it backwards. Almost all cures now use only sodium nitrite. Sodium nitrate was used on meats that were cured over a very long period of time because: sodium nitrate gradually over time changes to nitrite thus it is like a timed release sodium nitrite over a long period of curing. If a piece of meat is cured over long enough time, no nitrate will remain. The meat will only contain nitrite. As far as sea salt goes, it won't prevent botulism in smoked sausage, so use at your own risk. Anyone looking for info on this subject should read Rytec Kutas's sausage making book. You would be suprised how much more nitrites are contained in vegetables you eat everyday than there is in summer sausage.[;)]
Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
What I want to know is: Why do they have to name the two substances so closely the same so that I have to really pay attention in any discussion about them?[:D][:D]
My head hurts![:D]
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Yep, Trout nails it.
I meant to reply to this sooner, but I was out trying to catch a rainbow yesterday. It rained all weekend except for yesterday.
The book you are referring to is a wonderful read. It is the one I was trying to refer to in the thread about Canadian vs Peameal Bacon.
Prague powder #1 contains only Sodium Nitrite, and Prague #2 contains 1 part nitrite with 0.64 part nitrate, and PP#2 is used in long curing times in what he refers to as "dry cured" products I think - can't remember the exact words, but it does not refer to what you are all doing with buckboard bacon, it's specific only to sausage making.
As far as why they are named so closely, it has do to the chemical composition of the two substances. Now 10 years ago I could tell you exactly what the difference is, but when you don't use your knowledge, you lose it[:(] I know where I can look this up, and I'll get back to you in a day or two.
Edit: percentage of nitrite/nitrate in prague #2 - formerly read half/half.
<b><font color="green">whitetailfan</font id="green"></b>
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB
Trout or White,
Have you seen that book anywhere lately?
SmokeOn,
mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie
If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know. But...
Good Afternoon,
The book "Great Sausage Recipes & Meat Curing" is available from www.sausagemaker.com for $29.99. I have the book because,not only is it a good recipe / referance book, but also because that is the other brand of smoker I have. The book talks extensively about curing, brining,cold smoking,etc. Its a good book....the smoker leaves a little to be desired.
The salmon goes on the smoker on Thursday....if its not raining.[:)]
Ya Brent, that is the book - Great Sausage Recipes & Meat Curing. My copy was borrowed from my Dad and I'm sure it's the first edition.
It was reading passages from that book, that spurred on my earlier questions in the curing topic. I knew that I needed info on properly curing meat, but since the book was boxed up in my move last fall, I did not have it to read until sometime this month when I found it again.
Also re: Sodium Nitrite vs Sodium Nitrate, they are NaNO2 and NaNO3 respectively. I used to know the rule for naming compunds "ate" versus "ite" but it still eludes me. (I said I get back about this one regarding why they are named so closely)
<b><font color="green">whitetailfan</font id="green"></b>
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB
Backwards huh? I am under the impression that using sodium nitrate will cause the problems....in my homemade cures, I don't use sodium nitrate - it's sodium chloride........did I miss something?
Thanks!
"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Sodium Chloride = common table salt. According to the book you need to have a sufficient brine concentration when using salt only to cure meat. The USDA has determined that when using salt you need 7 pounds of salt to 100 pounds of meat. I just use the Instacure #1. for brine cured stuff. It already has the proper amount of Sodium Nitrite on a salt carrier pre-packaged. I use about 1 tsp to 5 pounds of meat. I hope this was helpful.
Its sunny and 60....the salmon goes on in 2 hours.[8D][8D]
Have a GREAT day!
Fuzz,
You are not wrong about the nitrate, that is what causes the nitrosamines. Here is an article I have linked that is pretty good at describing this.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html
The only part that trout said was backward, was the conversion of nitrite to nitrate. It is nitrate NaNO3 that breaks down to nitrite NaNO2.
The main reason that nitrates are not allowed except in a few instances is that they are the principal cause of nitrosamines when you fry bacon at high temperatures, however I understand that nitrites can do the same. Commercially prepared meats also now must include ascorbic?? acid - vitamin C, which apparently helps to block the production of nitrosamines.
The combination of salt (sodium chloride) and prague powder (sodium nitrite) are the most effective team in inhibiting the growth of botulism. Salt alone will not do it. It is the nitrite that causes the pigment change in meat, not the chloride - if you cured a piece of pork with salt alone, it is my guess that you would have a salty piece of meat that would come out it's naturally cooked color. When you smoke something with nitrite in it, you obtain the pink/red color of ham or bacon.
I'm no scientist but my conclusion is that you do not have the risk of producing the carcinogenic agents, as you do not use any nitrites. Therefore you are correct in your comments.[:)]
The "but" I am going to add, is that you are probably only using your salt brines for fish. If you are going to achieve the desired coloring of bacon or ham, you have to use nitrite. If you are going to obtain the proper color of smoked (not fresh) sausage, you have to use nitrite. Also the use of the nitrite in the sausage is important for botulism food poisoning, so I would not make any myself without it.
Hope this helps everyone a little. As stated I'm no scientist, so don't take my comments for gospel, it's just a summary of all the sources I have read.
<b><font color="green">whitetailfan</font id="green"></b>
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB
WTF
So help me out here. Page 22 of the 3rd Edition in the book says "The Department is aware that some consumers have expressed a desire to purchase products cured <b></b>solely with salt(sodium chloride) be included in the list of approved curing agents. Such would be for salt-cured products with sufficient brine concentration, or a water level such that Clostridium Botulinun will not grow. Based upon current information, the Department believes the finished product should have a minimum brine concentration of 10%. This brine concentration can usually be attained by using 7 pounds salt per 100 pounds of meat."
Don't take me wrong here... I'm not trying to be argumentative...I'm just trying to learn. And the 3rd edition is from 1999 is it is nearly 5 years old. So...is salt brine "ok" for fish but not for meat[?]
Thanks for your time and one more clarification.
BrentK
Grand Forks, ND
Good God! My head hurts even more. Somebody please bring this discussion down to an Emeril level![:D][:D]
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Ok, Kirk...I'll do it!
How'd the salmon turn out? What type of cure?
"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Chez,
If you did'nt get up so early in the morning your head would'nt hurt so much[;)]
The salmon had to wait until today. Kummok's recipe.
Have a nice weekend.
BrentK
Grand Forks, ND
OK, I concede to Chez and BrentK[:I]
Chez - I was trying to get down to the chemistry of the curing process for learning sake, but it's getting over my head and I cannot make any statements as FACT, so I'll quit here. I'm only regergitating what I've read, and my chemistry education ceased in my first year of university, so I ain't the expert[:D] From now on I'm gonna stick to recipes, and whatever they call for as a cure will be quoted.
Brent - yes you are correct in your quote from GSR&MC apparently salt alone in the right quantity is sufficient in retarding the growth of botulism. I have no idea what salt's properties are like in dealing with rancidity ie to quote FuzzyBear "read long shelf life".
As you are aware I frequent the curing section, and have made two past threads dealing with cure and my lack of knowledge in this area, so I am glad this discussion came about! Hopefully it has helped some readers who are currently where I was 3 months ago.[;)]
In summary:
a)Salt does help to suppress botulism and makes me feel better about some of the recipes that are out there.
b)There are plenty of pre-made cures (tenderquik for example) that are pre-mixed with the appropriate levels of nitrites.
c)You can cure meat without it, but you will not achieve the color or flavour of bacon/ham etc without nitrites.
<b><font color="green">whitetailfan</font id="green"></b>
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB
Thanks for the info. Last day of school today....my daughter says the garage "smells good dad, just like the meat store" That sounds like a good sign to me.... the salmon is glazing in there.[:p]
BrentK
Grand Forks, ND
Any type of grilling other than indirect produces carcinogens when the fat burns on the coals (or vaporizer if you use a gas grill). And we all still love to grill steaks and what not. So basically, nitrite allows you to cure without making your food over-salty tasting, with no more risk to your health than grilling a burger. So cure on, grill on and don't worry. Most people will have health issues from hanging out on the couch long before they get cancer from eating too much sausage. Have fun[:D][:D]
Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Hi All,
Don't mean to necessarily revive an old topic, but I'm a brand neew member with some science background. More importantly, I have lots of friends who are science jockeys in diffrerent areas. I thought it might be useful to add the following to the topic, since it involves both short-term and long-term health risks.
As for botulism and other microbial pathogens, the "10% brine" recommendation translates into the following: For every quart of liquid brine you need to make sure there is at least 3.2 ounces of salt. Because some salt preparations (Kosher, for instance) have larger granules than others (table salt, for instance), measuring the salt by volume rather than weight can be a problem, as others in this forum have pointed out. Also, most recipes don't specify the salt preparation. I don't have a scale in my kitchen (it's a PITA--I get enough of the precise protocol stuff at work), so I just make sure I use at least a scant half cup of non-iodized table salt or a rounded half cup of Kosher salt per quart of brine.
The reason for the non-iodized salt was also discussed in the forum. I am told by my biochemistry brethren that iodine combines readily with trace metals in food and even the metal racks in the smoker to form rather bitter compounds, which is the reason I use wood spoons to stir my brine . . .
I also saw some inquiries about sugar. Sugar is not as good a curative agent as salt, but it is a surprisingly effective anti-microbial. At high concentrations, like in maple syrup and candy, it doesn't support the growth of bacteria which is why candy will last forever without spoiling (it will oxidize to an inedible form long before it spoils from bacteria). Again, my biochemist friends tell me the rule of thumb is that sugar is about 1/3 to 1/2 as good as salt as an anti-microbial, so you can figure out how to reach the 10% brine level with a combination of salt and sugar if you wish.
The final issue I wanted to mention was nitrite/nitrate stuff. The naming of compounds is standard but obscure unless you have to know it for a living (or a grade in a course). WTF is correct in that the lower oxygen level for a compound is called -ite (NaNO2, sodium nitrite), and the higher oxygen level is called -ate (NaNO3, sodium nitrate). There are even more obscure naming rules for oxygen containing compounds with 3 or more levels of oxygen, but that would give Chez a headache in a heartbeat. As for carcinogens, all the publicity about nitrates causing liver cancer because they could form carcinogens called nitrosoamines often failed to mention one important fact: nitrosoamines can only form if nitrates are combined with fats at high very temperatures--the kind of temps achieved when a drop of fat from a sizzling steak hits the burner on a BBG grill. This is hundreds of degrees high than the temps we use in smoking. Thus, the risk of generating significant carcinogens in a BS smoker, with its max temp of 325F, is extremely slight.
Hope this helps. If not, please let me know and I will try to clarify.
John
Newton MA
John,
No apology is necessary. Although you may consider yourself to be a newbie and are looking for lots of advice from others, you obviously have some pretty pertinent knowledge to add to this thread. Your post will only make it more complete when another newbie comes looking for info. (Or I finally decide to take the curing plunge & do a search.)
Everybody is an expert at something, sharing our knowledge makes us all better smokers. That's the beauty of this board.[8D]
Kirk
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Everybody is an expert at something,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That is what she said last night......right after I errrrr....finished the dishes [V]
http://rminor.com
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DoW-Oldman</i>
<br />
QuoteThat is what she said last night......<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I'm biting my tongue, I'm biting my tongue. Olds, please don't throw a fatty through the center of the plate,....please![:D][:D][8D][:)]
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?