BRADLEY SMOKER | "Taste the Great Outdoors"

Bradley Smokers => The Black Bradley Smoker (BTIS1) => Topic started by: SMOKEHOUSE ROB on January 31, 2006, 12:26:48 AM

Title: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: SMOKEHOUSE ROB on January 31, 2006, 12:26:48 AM
Here are some pictures of bubbagumps PID that he installed in his smoke genarotor, awesome job, and a cut and paste from an email he sent me, This will be my next project, THANK YOU BUBAGUMP  (John) [;)]
C/P The one I installed is a Red Lion. I've used their products before and they
have always worked well. Their tech support is also very good. Listed below
are the parts I used.

PID - Red Lion #T1620000
SSR - Crydom #D1210
Thermocouple - Omega #TJ72-CASS-316U-3-SB-SMPW-M
Mini Panel Jack - Omega #RMJ-K-R

I like this PID because it is very small and simple to program. For this
application I didn't need or want a lot of bells and whistles. The space
inside the smoke generator is limited, to say the least, and there is only
one place I found that this PID, or any PID for that matter, will fit. The
face of the PID is just shy of
2" square and requires an approx. 1-3/4" square opening, which I used my
Dremmel tool for.

Attached are a few pictures of what it looks installed.

The switch to the right of the PID is the on/off switch for it and the
switch between the pushbutton and the power switch is the on/off switch I
installed to shut off the bisquette advance motor.

In the back I installed a mini panel jack for my thermocouple so I can
unplug it when I am done with it and store it inside the smoker. The small
silver switch under the mini jack I installed to allow me to bypass the PID
and use the smoker as it was originally wired with the rheostat.

I was going to post these on the smoker forum for others that may interested
but wasn't sure how. Feel free to post them it you like.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30/smokehouserob/SSCN1781.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a30/smokehouserob/SSCN1783.jpg)

click on link to sign up for the 2006 free givaway. http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2809
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: dick621 on January 31, 2006, 02:30:46 AM
Bubba,  I really like the way you put yours togeather. I had made a box for mine which is about 5"x5"x10". Used a TET7100 PID, crydom SSR, had a thermocouple made by WATLOW, type t. think I will reinstall everything in the smoke generator as you did.  Much cleaner setup.  How and where did you mount your SSR? Did you use a heat sink. where did you get your panel jack and plug.

Thanks Rob for posting this.
         Dick in Emmett, Idaho
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: owrstrich on January 31, 2006, 02:34:11 AM
thanks rob...

gump... freaking awesome...

owrstrich
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Oldman on January 31, 2006, 05:34:40 AM
VERY NICE indeed~~!

Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 01, 2006, 02:43:23 AM
quote]<i>Originally posted by dick621</i>
<br />How and where did you mount your SSR? Did you use a heat sink. where did you get your panel jack and plug.
[/quote]

Sorry it took so long to reply, but for some reason I wasn't able to connect to the forum. I kept getting a time out.

Anyway, I mounted the SSR inside the generator directly behind the PID above the vents. I didn't use a heat sink. Instead I applied some heat sink compound on the back of the SSR and mounted it on the metal case of the smoke generator. The area on the outside of the generator where the SSR is mounted has only gotten slightly warm, even on warm days.

The panel jack and plug I purchased from Omega, the same place I got my thermocouple. Actually, I had the plug installed when they made my thermocouple, but since you already have your thermocouple you can just order the plug. http://www.omega.com/pptst/RMJ_RSJ.html

The switch in the back to bypass the PID is optional. I just installed it in case I need to run the BS with the rheostat, you never know. It's not necessary but it does provide a little flexibility. But I will admit I have gotten pretty spoiled since installing the PID and can't imagine operating the BS off the rheostat anymore.

I will admit it does involve more work, wiring, and expense to install the PID over the TS, but for me it was worth it. The PID is pinpoint accurate with no under or overshooting setpoint, even on windy and cold days. It is truly a set it and forget it smoker now. All I concern myself with now is changing the water and rotating the rack when needed.

Let me know if I can be of futher help.

Thanks for the kind words, guys. [:)]

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: IKnowWood on February 01, 2006, 04:24:44 PM
How did you setup and install the puck advance switch.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nsxbill on February 01, 2006, 08:38:08 PM
You deserve the credit for a job well done.  This really looks sweet.  I have a PID I bought for an espresso machine that I never used.  Might hook up something like this on my other BS just to watch the temps.

Thanks for posting up all the pics and instructions.

Bill

<i>There is room on earth for all God's creatures....on my plate next to the mashed potatoes.</i>
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 01, 2006, 10:59:07 PM
Thanks Bill [:)]

IKW - I just used a single pole switch and wired it in series with a wire lead going to the puck advance motor. With switch in the open position the motor will not operate when it gets its signal from the 20 min. timer or when you push the button.

I normally leave it off when warming up the BS. When I'm ready to smoke I just turn it back on, advance two pucks. and then turn it back off after the last puck is extinguished.



Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 05, 2006, 08:06:54 AM
Hey bubbagumps would you mind ball-parking us the cost of this nifty set-up or is this getting to personal.  I just got back to town and need to decide to tackle this or buy a TS.  

Thanks

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 05, 2006, 11:33:32 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />Hey bubbagumps would you mind ball-parking us the cost of this nifty set-up or is this getting to personal.  I just got back to town and need to decide to tackle this or buy a TS.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Nodak,

I payed a little more than you would probably have to for a couple reason's. The PID I got a great deal on through a local supplier but still payed more than some of the ones listed on ebay. I was familar with the brand, and supplier, and wanted one that size so I bought it. The thermocouple I had custom made, which you would not have to do either.

I saw a PID listed on ebay that looked to be the same size as mine. I not familar with the brand, though. I think TomG might be using it, if so, maybe he can chime in here and give us the dimensions.

All in all, you should be able to install it for $75 - $100 depending on what components you use.

It is more expensive and little more work to install, but like I said earlier, for me it was worth it.

Hope this helps.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 06, 2006, 03:46:58 AM
Hi Guys,

I have 2 PIDs.  The TCG-6131P from Coldfusion is 110mm long,48x48 front panel, and requires a 43x43mm cutout.  The other is a model TA4 from Sanyou is 80mm long, 48x48 and 45x45mm.  I got them both on eBay for between $38 and $32.  As far as I can they are equally accurate. Besides being slightly smaller, and less expensive, the Sanyou has the added advantage of being user programable for both F and C* and almost any type of thermocouple or thermister.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 06, 2006, 03:59:30 AM
BubbaG,
 <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">PID - Red Lion #T1620000
SSR - Crydom #D1210
Thermocouple - Omega #TJ72-CASS-316U-3-SB-SMPW-M
Mini Panel Jack - Omega #RMJ-K-<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Is that a typo on the SSR?  If not, where do you get the 3-32VDC control current?
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 06, 2006, 12:05:56 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TomG</i>
<br />BubbaG,
 
QuoteIs that a typo on the SSR?  If not, where do you get the 3-32VDC control current?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

TG,

It is not a typo. The voltage output is from the PID. You have to be sure to order your PID with an SSR output rather than the 3 amp. relay output. The relay output is nothing more than a mechanical contact and with rapid switching will have a limited life.

With an SSR output there are no moving parts. The voltage output from the PID controls the current through the SSR. If you are setting up a PID control for the BS I would strongly advise buying a PID with SSR output. Same price.




Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 06, 2006, 04:13:11 PM
bubbagump,
Now all you got to do is put your ingenuus wiring diagram on the forum. I've got a Red Lion distributor right around the corner from me. [:D] I guess it's time to get tight with city sale desk. What was the custom thermocouple specs and where did you decide to mount it in the smoker to acquire the most accurate reading?
 
I've been toying with the Idea of mounting a very slow speed circulating fan within the BS to guarantee a pretty equal temp thru out the smoker, just haven't found a slow spd. fan motor with a shaft long enough to go thru the smoker wall. A "Counter Top Convection Oven" fan might work if I can find one like I want.[?] Any ideas on this subject?

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 06, 2006, 04:22:12 PM
Hi BubbaG,

 <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">TG,

It is not a typo. The voltage output is from the PID. You have to be sure to order your PID with an SSR output rather than the 3 amp. relay output. The relay output is nothing more than a mechanical contact and with rapid switching will have a limited life.

With an SSR output there are no moving parts. The voltage output from the PID controls the current through the SSR. If you are setting up a PID control for the BS I would strongly advise buying a PID with SSR output. Same price.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I understand and agree with all of the above, neither of my PIDs, to the best of my knowledge, will generate a  vdc current to input to the SSR, they will only act as switches to activate the SSR.  A dedicated current has to be provided to the PID's relay, either dc or ac to activate the SSR. My PIDs are presently wired to transfer 120 vac to the input of the SSR. If I had a SSR that required a vdc input I would have to provide that to the PID with a transfomer/converter.  Your PID apparently is outputing a 3-30vdc current on it's own.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 06, 2006, 04:54:31 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If I had a SSR that required a vdc input I would have to provide that to the PID with a transfomer/converter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Tom,

I'm not sure if that's even possible, I wouldn't think it is. Unless you're talking about using your PID relay to switch a DC power supply to feed the SSR. Even if it would work, it would probably end up being cheaper and less complicated to just order a new PID with an SSR output.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 06, 2006, 07:04:29 PM
Hi John,
 <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unless you're talking about using your PID relay to switch a DC power supply to feed the SSR. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That is what I'm talking about.  Both the Sanyou TAD 4 and the Coldfusion will switch(relay) either a dc or ac current.  If dc is needed to activate a SSR a dc source must be provided to either PID.  Your Red Lion apparently comes with an analog dc output option which will control a dc input SSR without a transformer/converter. Usually any SSR which specifies a dc input has a D in its model #, ac controlled SSRs have an A.

Bottom line: Anyone going the PID route must use a SSR specified for the appropriate input(control current).  The Red Lion with the dc option has to be matched with a DC input SSR. The Coldfusion and Sanyou PID that I have, will require a dc converter to funtion with a dc SSR.  They can, however be wired directly to an AC controlled SSR.

Just make sure the SSR matches your PID before you buy it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 07, 2006, 04:50:50 AM
I think I might be getting in over my head here[?] But I'm looking at these do I need anything else?? I thought I would mount it in it's own box and just plug the BS into it?????

What do you think of this PID[?]
http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3


This SSR[?]
http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=9

This thermocoupler[?]
http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2

Do I need anything else[?]

Am I getting in over my head[?]








"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 07, 2006, 08:40:28 PM
I'd also be very interested in hearing opinions about Nodak's proposed setup. That looks like it's in my price range! I'm starting to get obsessed with trying to understand these things :)

At least this Auber Instruments place has a website and a way to email them. I sent a request for some on-line documentation on the controllers. It will be interesting to see when/if they respond.

Two things I wonder about in Nodak's idea is:
1) The quality of the TC. It looks like the same style as some others I've seen like the ColdFusion ones, and I've seen multiple comments about people trashing that style and using something different. But for only $5, I might be tempted to get one while I possibly wait for a custom-built one from someone else.
2) I wonder if that big of SSR is going to generate enough heat to require a heatsink? 480VAC output - shouldn't you use something for 110-120VAC? I wonder if that one has 120VAC in its operating range...


Looking forward to hearing opinions from people that understand this stuff.

Also should be interesting to see how many attempts it will take to get this posted, if at all [xx(]
<font color="red"><b>Edit:</b> I must have slipped through some seam in the universe cause it only took three tries to get this posted. It's been taking more tries than that just to read other's posts...</font id="red">
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 07, 2006, 10:31:55 PM
Sorry everyone for not responding sooner but I could not access the forum. Man, talk about frustrating.

<b>Nodak</b> - Right on. Everything you listed is correct. In fact, Auber Instruments is the place I recommended Smokehouse Rob get his from. I did happen to e-mail Aubers a couple of times with a few questions and they replied in within an hour both times. So that impressed me.

The only thing I would change if it were mine is the SSR. I installed a 10A and it is more than sufficient. Since I mounted it inside my smoke generator the the metal smoke generator acts like a giant heat sink. In addition, it is mounted directly above the ventilation slots on the side of the generator. My SSR barely gets warm. Even if you mount it in a separate box its doubtful it would get warm enough to warrant a heat sink

One other thing, you're not in over your head. There are plenty of people here willing to help you get yours set up. I'll be glad to help anyway I can. [:)]

<b>Gary_CO</b> - I can't speak about the reliability of their thermocouple, but you are right, for $5.00 it's worth a try.

The 480v rating on the SSR means it's capable of switching up to 480 volts.

<b>ChefBill</b> - I did not permanently mount my thermocouple inside my smoker, if I'm understanding your question correctly. I plug it in the back of my smoke generator and drop the probe down through the damper and hook it on one of my racks with the clip that came with my ET-73.
 
Also, since I don't have to babysit my smoker temp. anymore, I use two meat probes with my ET-73 and can monitor two cuts of meat at the same time.

One other thing Bill, unless you get a great deal on the Red Lion, which is the only reason I bought mine, you'll probably find it pretty expensive. If it is check out the one at Auber Instruments.

<b>TomG</b> - To clarify one thing, the DC SSR's will operate over a wide voltage range. Something like 4.5 - 32 volts DC. The Red Lion PID that I have puts out I think around 7 volts DC nominal and the Aubers I think is 12 volts DC.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 07, 2006, 11:16:05 PM
Nodak, if you're going to do a project box installation the only other things you will need are a box[:)], a small(4 lug)terminal bar, and a heavy duty extension cord(I used a cut in half, 10' air conditioner cord).
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid1.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/Openbox.jpg)

Also checkout Sam's earlier link. http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2552 You're wiring with the SSR drive PID will be slightly different but his diagram should give you a pretty good idea of what's going on.

Totally agree with BubbaG about the thermocouple, it's marginally adequate, but for $5 you can't go wrong.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 07, 2006, 11:22:27 PM
Cool! What a great thread. I'm going to order from these Auber guys.

Kinda off-topic - now the only thing I need to contemplate is upgrading to a higher amp SSR and upgrading to one of their controllers that has the ramp/soak feature. The reason for that is I have a glass fusing kiln that runs at 220VAC and the ability to ramp and soak is very important for those kilns. Retail kiln controllers cost $450! Of course, I'd have to mount everything in an external box for transportability and making it idiot proof for using at 2 different voltages on the output.

Thanks everyone for educating a "PID dummy".

Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 08, 2006, 12:08:13 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TomG</i>
<br />Nodak, if you're going to do a project box installation the only other things you will need are a box[:)], a small(4 lug)terminal bar, and a heavy duty extension cord(I used a cut in half, 10' air conditioner cord).
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid1.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/Openbox.jpg)

Also checkout Sam's earlier link. http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2552 You're wiring with the SSR drive PID will be slightly different but his diagram should give you a pretty good idea of what's going on.

Totally agree with BubbaG about the thermocouple, it's marginally adequate, but for $5 you can't go wrong.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Very nice set up TG. Well done! [:)]


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: iceman on February 08, 2006, 12:33:15 AM
Sweet job TG. One of these days I'll get around to it and will have to get a parts list from you.

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/killer2.jpg)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 08, 2006, 12:41:22 AM
Just thought I'd add that Auber Instruments already responded to my request for info. And I got a chance to peek at the users manual - it looks as thorough as any I've seen while researching these things...
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 08, 2006, 12:44:34 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gary_CO</i>
<br />Just thought I'd add that Auber Instruments already responded to my request for info. And I got a chance to peek at the users manual - it looks as thorough as any I've seen while researching these things...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

This PID also has auto tuning which makes programming a snap.[:D]

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 08, 2006, 05:13:42 AM
I went ahead and ordered from http://www.auberins.com tonight. Based upon Bubbagump's comments, plus the same opinion from the bunch at Auber, I ordered the 10amp SSR. Auber has been very helpful with my questions.

I'll post info as I gather it (promptness of delivery, etc.).

Thanks again for all the info.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 08, 2006, 05:17:33 AM
Great to hear, Gary. Good luck and have fun.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 08, 2006, 06:22:28 AM
I couldn't fall asleep, so I took the plung tonight too.  Good luck to us gary_co.

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 08, 2006, 12:33:15 PM
nodak, Gary CO,
Add me to the pot too. Decided to follow suit and order me a package too. Not bad for $74 w/shipping.

Had a real will wild hair while running thru all this. I love to cook and have a new convection oven for the kitchen.. Been thinking, Sure would be nice to incorporate one of these in the oven. Wouldn't be hard to do. All you'd have to do is bypass the regular oven thermostat control and let the PID control the temp; if the PID was off then the oven thermostat would be in control. [:)] You'd want to use a "Double Pole" 50amp SSR though to switch both legs of the 230 VAC to the bake element.[;)]

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 09, 2006, 12:25:01 AM
Made a stop by Radioshack Bought rest supplies for $10.00 I already have a AC extension cord.  I bought the 25A SSR so I could use the PID if I want to control a small elect heater in my camper/horse-trailer.  Should I just use the metal plate only on the bottom of my project box and mount my SSR to it for a heat sink?

Is a 30 amp terminal strip sufficient?

Bubbagump and tomg I see you have a vent in the side of the project box, should I cut some slots in mine for air???

gary_CO could you please e-mail me the user Manuel they sent you if you get a chance? Did you order the one with the ramp feature??  I looked at it but it only had one input from what I could tell.  I think we would need one with two programmable input (probes) one for smoker and one for meat(similar to raptor/competitor).  hmmmm or maybe a ts switch into the meat before the PID.

Now if I could remember where I ordered my Maverick from that hasn't showed up, I accidentally trashed the confirmation e-mail.  Guess I'll wait for credit card bill to come and make sure it's not on there before I order another one.

Can't wait for PID to arrive.  I will post before I plug it in after I wire than if y'all don't here from me again you'll know I didn't wire it right[8][:D]



"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."[?][?][?][?]
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 09, 2006, 03:55:53 AM
Hey nodak,

email message is on the way. I'd post a link to the manual, but who ever created it put a lot of effort into protecting the pdf file, so I guess I should not post it in public.

I decided against the ramping feature on my first one. Sure enough, it looks like all models available are one input and one output. Here's my drawing of the terminal connections:
(https://home.comcast.net/~garyco212/misc/Auber/Terminals.gif)

I just plan on using my old wireless thermometer as a meat probe.

I noticed in my Paypal account that it shows the money being cleared on 2/13/06. I guess Auber will wait until that happens before they ship my product. I hate Paypal and don't use it very often.

I'm drawing schematics of the Bradley electrical components and wiring, and then I'll add in how I plan to wire mine. I do intend on mounting mine inside the smoke generator and will likely copy Bubbagump's setup. One I get my schematics done, it should be very easy to modify it to illustrate one in a project box. It's taking me awhile to draw though, I've gotten very rusty at drawing, and it'll probably take me a day or two...

Let me know if you don't get my email message, I'll send another one. My address is mentioned in the email. There was not any way to send an attachment in it. I can email directly once I get a email reply from you.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 09, 2006, 04:00:06 AM
Nodak, re: slots, Hell man,I don't know, maybe I thought it would dissipate a little SSR generated heat, I didn't have anything better to do, or just thought it looked cool, but not necessarily in that order.[:)]  I really went whacko on the other box. Don't even ask![:o)]
 (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid2.jpg)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 09, 2006, 04:22:40 AM
I kinda like TomG's idea of putting on a heatsink. Why not, just a few more $'s and a tad bit more work; don't see how it'd hurt anything.

I tried looking around online for heatsink to match the SSR I'm getting from Auber. I can't find any products on the net from the stated manufacturer, which is "Lide". Hmmm?????

Which leads to couple of questions I'll have:

1)The cycling rate comes with the default set to 2 seconds. Does the PID logic need such a quick rate. Seems like if I slowed that down to say, 30 or 40 seconds the SSR would stay much cooler. Plus you'd think that'd reduce wear on the heating element in the smoker tower. I just don't know if the PID would have worse performance that way. Does that make any sense?
2) Since I plan to mount mine in the generator box and I have the black, powdercoated Bradly, it seems like a good idea to scruff off the powder coating inside the box where I plan to mount the SSR. Seems like that'd give better heat disipation for the compound and SSR. Make any sense?
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 09, 2006, 04:40:45 AM
Thanks gary,

Found what I was afraid of. Looks like I need to find a longer thermocoupler so I can leave the PID box in the house/garage as ambient operating temp is 32F-122F.
 
Any body using a PID in cold temps??

Can we ignore the minimum ambient operating temp?

Well I'm on the hunt for a 10-15ft therm coupler lead.  Any ideas for where to find the most economical and best type coupler?

Thinking about trying to get a plug of some-type for thermocoupler So I can have less cable in the summer by switching couplers.



"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 09, 2006, 05:14:22 AM
Check at the beginning of this thread. Bubbagump had his custom probe made at Omega.com and they also have the plug jacks. BubbaG' lists the product numbers he ordered.

Omega has an ordering tool called the "probe configurator" that lets you choose what you want, and then it creates the item number and tells you the price. I think it's a worthwile exercise to go thru. I guessed what I thought would be right, then compared to what bubbaG ordered. I learned a little about the thermocouplers this way.
The Omega Probe ordering tool can be reached here:
http://www.omega.com/config/probeconfig.html

P.S. If anyone wants a copy of the users manual for the Auber PID, send me an email and I'll send a link to where I have a copy online...

Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 09, 2006, 12:41:59 PM
For all us tinkers in electrical gadgets + other stuff, here's a source of odds & ends at bargain prices. I've been buying stuff from them for years and never had anything but great service. They buy factory over runs, old new stock, and reclaimed stuff. They got some real buys.
http://www.mpja.com/

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 09, 2006, 01:44:12 PM
Here's how I think I would wire the Auber PID into the generator box:

(http://home.comcast.net/~garyco212/misc/Auber/ver3_0-wiring.gif)



<font color="red"><b>EDIT NOTE:</b> Removed some irrelevant and incorrect info. Update the picture to represent comments as of 11 Feb 2006 -02:46:46 (Thanks Bubbagump!)

Updated on 2/24 to show inclusion of a DPDT toggle switch to allow switching between PID control and the original factory setup.</font id="red">
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bugboat on February 09, 2006, 11:51:15 PM
I did use a heat sink with my 15a SSR although I dont think I needed to. It seemed to generate very little heat. This was in cold temps around 35 degrees though. I mounted my  controll box on top of the smoker (think I'm going to move it though). The controll box does get a little warm with the heat coming out the vent, moisture too.
I'm going to mount my PID in the smoke generator like buggagump. The heat sink I stole out of an old computer prossesor.

common sense isnt common
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 10, 2006, 05:01:06 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gary_CO</i>
<br />

Bubbagump, what do I have wrong? I'm especially worried about the wires to the AC side of the SSR. Mine looks much different than KosherSmokin's in his "ColdFusion" thread
( http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2552 ).
I don't know how to wire a relay...
Anything else?

<font color="red"><b>EDIT NOTE:</b> updated the drawing to show a) reversing the wires on the AC side of the SSR, which looked more correct and b) put the PID fuse inline and downline of the PID switch, which just seemed more logical.</font id="red">

I will go back and update this picture when I figure out the correct wiring.

Thanks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Gary,

KosherSmokin's wiring was for a PID using a relay output not an SSR output like your drawing shows. So don't be confused by it. The wiring will be different. The way you show your SSR wired is correct.

As far as the fuse goes, you don't need a separate fuse for the PID. The fuse as you show it only protects the wiring and not the PID so there is no purpose for it. Just come off the load side of the existing fuse on the generator to feed the PID and use the same size wire as the smoke generator is wired with. Your fuse should be on the output side of the PID.

Also, the way you show the switch wired for the bisquette advance motor is incorrect. You just need to install the switch in series with a lead to the motor itself. Don't mess with any of the wiring going to the control module on the bottom of the smoke generator.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 11, 2006, 03:52:07 AM
Bubbagump, the grasshopper has a few more questions/seeks your input.

1. Should I just use the metal plate only on the bottom of my project box and mount my SSR to it for a heat sink?

2. Is a 30 amp terminal strip sufficient (opted for 25 amp SSR for other possible uses)?

3. Should I cut air vents in the side of the project box?

Thanks,
         mike

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 11, 2006, 01:35:16 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />
1. Should I just use the metal plate only on the bottom of my project box and mount my SSR to it for a heat sink?

2. Is a 30 amp terminal strip sufficient (opted for 25 amp SSR for other possible uses)?

3. Should I cut air vents in the side of the project box?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Nodak,

1. Yes, mounting the SSR to a metal plate will help heat transfer. You might want to spread a little heat sink compound (Radio Shack) on the back of the SSR before mounting it.

2. Yes

3. Yes, if the box is completely sealed off any ventilation you can provide would be helpful.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 11, 2006, 03:51:22 PM
bubbagump,
Just curious about something. What's the minimum working temp setting your PID has. I have some recipes that call for drying at 120ºF for a period of time. thanx

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 11, 2006, 08:58:49 PM
Not sure on Bubbagumps but for the Auber you will be fine.  It also depends on the type of thermocouple you use from what i can tell. All look -50 to 0C for lowest temp in user manual that Gary emailed me.  I can email it to you if you would like.  I have not yet received my PID hoping for Monday, not sure if Gary has yet???

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 11, 2006, 09:02:58 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ChefBill</i>
<br />bubbagump,
Just curious about something. What's the minimum working temp setting your PID has. I have some recipes that call for drying at 120ºF for a period of time. thanx
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The PID setpoint adjustment is from -999 to 9999. So I can set it anywhere in between. I do have an adjustable setting that will limit the min. and max setpoint. I currently have a min. setpoint of 100 and a max. of 250.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 11, 2006, 09:58:35 PM
Thanx guys, Sounds like it'll for everything from the freezer to the fireplace...  CB

<font color="red"><b>nodak, Gary_CO</b>,  I ordered mine the 8th and it came today.</font id="red">  [:D]

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 12, 2006, 01:56:26 AM
ChefBill, you had to tell us you already received your's didn't you.  Make me jealous, I also ordered my the 8th.  But mail is on The Pony Express up here. I just hope the horse doesn't die or they get attacked by bad guys or natives, than I may never receive it.  Mail has been terrible and getting lost, had one letter take 18+ days to go 25 miles, and 6+ days to get a postmark.

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 12, 2006, 02:24:16 AM
nodak.
I'm probably a lot closer to Sarasota,FL than you are too, only about 350-400 miles.
The more they charge for mail the slower it gets. I think they need to trade in the pony express for the rabbit express.[:)]

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 12, 2006, 07:22:35 AM
When I ordered my stuff, I inadvertently had the Paypal account to EFT instead of using the debit card. So, I slowed my order down... Grrr, I hate Paypal these days.

Not a big deal though, as I also ordered a probe like Bubbagump's and it'll take a while to get that.

Only question I have remaining, I think, is which post on Omega's plug will be the positive one. You still there BG? [8D]
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 12, 2006, 11:25:40 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gary_CO</i>
<br />Only question I have remaining, I think, is which post on Omega's plug will be the positive one. You still there BG? [8D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

When I ordered my TC I ordered one long enough so that I could use a small portion of the cable (8" or 9") to wire the PID to the receptacle jack. Do not regular wire to make this connection. I should have ordered it without the plug attached because I just had to take it off anyway to cut the wire. Minor detail. You'll find that the small post is the positive post. Yellow to + and red to -.

Did you also order the mini panel jack to go with it?

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 12, 2006, 11:46:18 AM
Yep, ordered the same round-faced jack. I should have extra length to use as you say. How come it needs to be the same wire? I'm guessing different wire would have different resistance and screw up its accuracy, or sumpin...
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Oldman on February 12, 2006, 01:54:30 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font size="2">I'm probably a lot closer to Sarasota,FL than you are too, only about 350-400 miles.</font id="size2"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Nope I'm closer. 45 Minute drive time.


Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 12, 2006, 02:07:06 PM
Raye, You don't play fair. [;)]

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 12, 2006, 02:19:44 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gary_CO</i>
<br />Yep, ordered the same round-faced jack. I should have extra length to use as you say. How come it needs to be the same wire? I'm guessing different wire would have different resistance and screw up its accuracy, or sumpin...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Gary,

Check out this site and scroll down toward the bottom. It will explain it more clearly.

http://www.pmcwire.com/ThermocoupleWire.htm

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 12, 2006, 10:46:52 PM
Yet once again, thanks much Bubbagump. I wouldn't have been successful at this without your help. Now, I'm confident I will be.

The next thing I'll contemplate is trying to find a way to semi-permanently mount the probe. I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to come in through the back somewhere and maybe try to mount the probe using something like screw-in cable clips (that could withstand the heat and the corrosive  smoke), maybe below one of the rack slides second from the top. Figure this might give best average temp. But that project will take more thought. I imagine it'll be one of those "think about, but never do..." projects.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 13, 2006, 03:56:59 AM
Can anyone tell me if the thermocouplers from the TS switches will work with PID.  Looking at costs seems like I can buy a 10ft for $7.50 that sounds a lot more economical than the $36.00+ from Omega.  But I don't want to be sorry either for going the cheap route.

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/temperature/SeriesTS2Price.cfm

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 13, 2006, 11:35:20 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />Can anyone tell me if the thermocouplers from the TS switches will work with PID.  Looking at costs seems like I can buy a 10ft for $7.50 that sounds a lot more economical than the $36.00+ from Omega.  But I don't want to be sorry either for going the cheap route.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Nodak - The probe on the TS is not a thermocouple it is a thermistor and I do not believe the PID's accept a thermistor input.

I just finished putting together a PID setup for a friend using the Auberin PID, SSR, and type K Termocouple. The thermocouple was $5.00 and pretty low end. It was no where near as accurate as the one I purchased from Omega. I did pay quite a bit more for it but it was definitely worth it.

Aside from the accuracy, the wiring for the thermocouple is very small gauge solid wire, which will not hold up to a lot of flexing and will eventually break. The Omega is stranded wire.

The plus side is that it was only 5 bucks. But as the old saying goes, "you get what you pay for".

Just remember, your PID, or any controller for that matter, is only as good as its input.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 13, 2006, 04:32:13 PM
Here's where I get my thermocouples. http://cgi.ebay.com/Thermocouple-2-J-3-16-x6-w-6ft-lead-cf_W0QQitemZ7589738335QQcategoryZ50926QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If you don't want to deal wtih eBay contact Bill directly [email protected]

I've purchased at least 10 TCs with armored leads from Bill with an average cost of about $7.00 ea.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 14, 2006, 05:24:47 AM
Tomg is there any reason in particular you chose the J type instead of the K type thermocoupler that everyone else seems to be using?


Thanks,
Mike

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 14, 2006, 10:56:41 PM
Just received My PID today. Couldn't keep my hands off of it and I quickly started looking at it and noticed they call for a fuse, is this necessary???   Sure I will have lots of other questions as I get time to work on it.

Thanks,
MIke

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 14, 2006, 11:34:11 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />Just received My PID today. Couldn't keep my hands off of it and I quickly started looking at it and noticed they call for a fuse, is this necessary???<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I emailed their tech support (Suyi) with the same question and included a drawing showing the location in the circuit of the existing fuse. He said the existing fuse was sufficient.

If there is ever a need to replace the fuse be sure to replace it with the same type and size.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 14, 2006, 11:51:04 PM
Thanks bubbagump.  I am going to put my PID in a project box and get a 10ft thermocoupler so I can leave my PID in the garage and BS outside when smoking in winter in ND.  So should I put a fuse in my project box??? If so, can I get it at radioshack and what kind?

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 15, 2006, 01:31:42 AM
The manual I have suggests a 250v, 1 amp, slow-blowing fuse. I have seen those at HomeDepot... Never looked at RadioShack, but they'll certainly have a fuse holder...

just thought I'd jump in :)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 15, 2006, 02:08:42 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />Thanks bubbagump.  I am going to put my PID in a project box and get a 10ft thermocoupler so I can leave my PID in the garage and BS outside when smoking in winter in ND.  So should I put a fuse in my project box??? If so, can I get it at radioshack and what kind?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
nodak - Are you plugging your box into the back of the smoke generator or a separate outlet?

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 15, 2006, 03:11:14 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Nodak asked: Tomg is there any reason in particular you chose the J type instead of the K type thermocoupler that everyone else seems to be using?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Nodak, the link was just the first eBay post I found. Bill can supply almost any TC type.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 15, 2006, 03:16:00 AM
Was thinking seperate outlet. Now that you mention it I guess I could go to the back of the generater, than I wouldn't need a fuse. Never even crossed my mind as an option.  

When I get time I'm going to put a switch in for my biscuit advance motor, to save a little wear.

I'm going to try to make time to work on a wiring diagram  for the PID.  But I'm going to run it by you just so my wife doesn't collect on my life insurance plan early.

Thanks,
MIKE  


"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 15, 2006, 01:24:24 PM
<b>THOUGHT:</b> As you know we almost always run the BS rheostat on high when using a Raptor/Guru or a PID. Looking at  gary_co's wiring diagram I just thought of something.
<b>WHAT IF:</b> You placed  a Single Pole Double Throw Switch between the fuse <font color="brown">(brown dashed line)</font id="brown"> and wired one side straight to the receptacle on the rear of the smoke generator, The other would feed the SSR.
This way, when it was in one position it would feed the tower just like the OEM wiring and still let you see the temp that the PID was seeing but without the PID being in control.
This would let you set the temperature you wanted on the PID <i>( for the first smoking step)</i> and still do a fast Pre-Heat to a higher temp than the PID is set for.
Then when you load the BS up and flip the switch to PID to control what you want your smoke temperature to be. As we all know, Once we open the door and load the BS, the Temperature is going to fall into the basement for a period of time. This would help overcome this problem.

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Roadkill on February 15, 2006, 04:28:38 PM
Okay guys,,as I stated the other day,I'm electrically challenged.I stumbled onto this hot topic,and from the first post,was lost as to what these add-ons are for.From what I gather,by adding these devices,the Bradley will better be able to be set at and maintain a constant temperature? Now for my questions,,,What does PID,SSR,heatsink,Raptor-Guru stand for? None of the posts on the past 5 pages explains this,to me,and I'm still in the dark,as to what this whole conglomoration will accomplish? Then there are updates,as to the wiring,and the right length of the Thermocoupler,,,so if someone out there,wishes to send me an e-mail,(as for non-embarrasment here)as to the correct purpose of this add-on,and further explanations,as to the correct equipment needed,,I would appreciate this.
  I am looking to buy my Bradley next month,but since have noticed a bigger model to be forthcoming in May,but I may not wait that long.If this added feature will make smoking easier,more care free,I will add it,if I have the proper guidance,,I just want to know the hows,and why's of this,in greater detail,thanks!!

"PINK"-the only way,to devour a steak!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: icerat4 on February 15, 2006, 07:39:32 PM
This seems like alot of time and money for all this stuff.I would think the best thing to do is buy one of the new smokers comming out soon with all these features.Thats just the way i see it.whats a few extra buck at that point and it dosent look like a wire nest.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 15, 2006, 07:56:16 PM
icerat4,
Probably would be better, <b>"IF"</b> most of us didn't already have well in excess of $300 <u>already</u> invested in the "Original Bradley Smoker"..  Why should I spend another $600+ and have to find someone to buy the first one, when I can have the same thing only 2 racks smaller for only $50 more.
If I didn't already have one, You're right. I'd probably pay the difference and go for the new one coming out.

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: icerat4 on February 15, 2006, 08:27:46 PM
I see your point .I just bought mine 1 week ago not knowing this new one was commimg out.But with all the people ive fed in the last week with this unit i could sell it for 250 and throw in a few more bucks for the up grade.But me being the nice guy i am i am going to give this one away to a friend who cant afford one.By then ill be a pro smoker.All the people i have fed so far with this bs only making chicken and ribs absolutly love the food.So chez put me on the preorder list for the 6 rack upgrade.Boy i love my new toy.ALL you guys here have been a great help to make great smoked food with ease.Chez i am positive you will have some of my other friends calling you on this new smoker soon.Thank you all once again.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: zhongyi on February 15, 2006, 09:00:58 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Roadkill</i>
<br />...Then there are updates,as to the wiring,and the right length of the Thermocoupler,,,so if someone out there,wishes to send me an e-mail,(as for non-embarrasment here)as to the correct purpose of this add-on,and further explanations,as to the correct equipment needed,,I would appreciate this...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I am basically in the same boat as Roadkill.  Maybe someone can post a parts list, basic wiring, etc. as a sticky
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Roadkill on February 15, 2006, 09:25:47 PM
Will the new Bradley 6 Rack smoker,have this upgrade installed on it when it becomes available in a few months?This automatic temperature control,of that's what all these parts are being used for and being talked about here now? If so,I know I will wait,but do want to get on a waiting list now,instead of possibly waiting until the end of this summer,to get one.Can you put down a deposit now,for a new 6 tack version? And will this temp control,be available as a factory add-on,or still need to be home-designed? If this is the case of the latter,I may just stick with the purchase of a 4 rack,stainless steel version.

"PINK"-the only way,to devour a steak!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 15, 2006, 09:50:35 PM
I'll take a stab at Roadkill's comments. Most importantly, I am nowhere near an expert at this stuff. I wouldn't even say "knowledgeable". But the exercise of writing this is good for me... I hope this is not patronizing and I'm posting here on the forum for others that might wonder what all the jargon is...

You're spot-on with what the controller accomplishes. As I started rambling about in another post on this forum, a limitation of the Bradley units is that the temperature controlling mechanism is a rheostat. Just like an adjustable light switch (dimmer) in your living room. You slide the temp control on the bottom of the main tower to adjust the amount of current that runs to the heating element. And then the heating element just runs at that rate, irregardless of the actual temperature inside the box. After some fiddling with the temp setting, you should be able to get near your desired temp.

But what if the ambient weather conditions change during your smoking session? Say the wind picks up, and/or the temperature drops a lot during the evening hours. You'll need to run outside and make adjustments to the temperature adjustment to compensate for the change in the ambient weather. This will likely take more than one adjustment to compensate for things like adjusting the temp slider too much and overshooting your desired temp, etc.

One solution is to use a standard temperature controller, like the TS units mentioned in other posts here. The raptor-guru device is another brand of standard controller. They are a retail product produced by the bunch at www.bbqguru.com and is a "turnkey" package. The standard controllers work just like the thermostat you have on your home heating system – if the measured temperature is below your target temp, then electricity is supplied to the heating element. This is in contrast to a rheostat which just applies an amount of current to the heating element irregardless of what the actual temp is.

A fancier type controller is a PID unit. PID stands for "proportional, integral, derivative". These units are different from the standard controllers in that they work like rheostats (dimmers) and thermostats at the same time. So while the controller is turning on/off the heating element, it is also adjusting the amount of current going to the heating element. Additionally, the PID controllers are fancy logical, electronic devices that use math (calculus) to "learn" and anticipate how your system performs. Then they adjust themselves to stay more accurate. The result – less overshooting your desired temp and most likely the ability to reach your target temp quicker. <font color="red">Edit note: The comment above about a PID also working as a rheostat is incorrect - see bubbagump's comment below (16 Feb 2006 :  00:21:46)!</font id="red">

An analogy between a standard controller and a PID version that comes to mind is a bicycle. Consider the standard controller as a simple one-gear bike. The PID controller would be more like a bike with a lot of different gears. They both produce the same thing, the latter is just fancier, more efficient, and probably more accurate in getting to the end result.

How either a standard controller, or a PID model, work is they measure the temperature and then put out some sort of electrical signal. This signal is directed to a relay switch. A relay is just an automatic, electrically triggered switch. So when the controller senses that a boost in temp is needed it sends out it's electrical signal to a relay. When the relay gets that signal, it switches on the current to another component (in this case, your heating element). So a relay is just an electrically triggered switch. One problem with regular relays is they take a lot of mechanical wear-and-tear with all the switching on and off. So they have a tendency to fail frequently. In the digital age, its become possible to make a relay that doesn't have any internal moving parts, everything inside one is electronic. These are known as SSRs, or solid state relays. Without the moving mechanical parts, they generally last longer.

One potential problem with relays is that they (either traditional ones or solid state ones) generate heat while they do all that switching on/off. Heat is one of the worst enemies of electronic parts. One way to reduce the heat generated by a device, such as the SSR, is to mount it on a heatsink. A heatsink is just a chunk of metal, usually with a lot of little metal fins like a radiator, which helps dissipate heat. They are common in many electronic gadgets. Your personal computer likely has more than one inside for helping to dissipate heat from some of its components. From others practical experience here, a heatsink isn't always required.

So, in summary, the temp controller measures the actual temperature, and then switches the heating element on/off to reach/maintain that temp. This is instead of just adjusting a dimmer to run at a certain rate. They will give you a more accurate temperature, with less human intervention.

Is it worth waiting to purchase one of the new Bradley models versus doing the modification yourself? That's a difficult question only you can answer. First of all, I don't think it's public knowledge (yet) what the "digital control" on the new models means. Will it be a standard controller, a PID version, simply fancier switches, etc.?

Second, you have to like tinkering with electronic stuff to "want" to do this mod yourself. It does take a few tools. For example you will most likely want to cut a square hole to mount a controller. A lot of people use a rotary tool, such as a Dremel or Foredom, to allow them to cut the square hole. And you'll probably have to drill other holes. Drilling large holes in metal is harder than most people think. I guess you could find a "sheet metal shop" that could do it for you, but they have to want such a small job and it'd cost you a few $'s. Or another alternative is to recruit a friend that has the proper tools and likes tinkering with this kind of stuff.

Another consideration in making your purchasing decision concerns the Bradley warranty on new products. From what I've gathered here, Bradley is very good about replacing defective components while the product is under warranty. If you go in and modify the parts, I'd be extremely surprised if Bradley would honor the warranty. Companies just can't take responsibility for user-altered products. It is possible to implement one of the controller mods without modifying any of the Bradley parts. Mounting all the controller gadgets inside a separate "project box" and plugging it in-between the smoke generator and the main tower would achieve that. But this thread started out illustrating how bubbagump had implemented a very functional, highly elegant installation. I'm trying to duplicate his setup, mostly anyway. I'm sure I'll be voiding the warranty on my smoke generator.

------------
My cost so far to modify mine:
* PID controller, 10amp SSR, thermocouple (temp probe), shipping      $68
   from www.auberins.com
* Another thermocouple, a quick-disconnect minijack, shipping         $62
   from www.omega.com  (Identical to bubbagump's)
- I wasted $5 getting two thermocouples...
* Two 10 amp AC switches, fuse holder from RadioShack            $8
- turns out I didn't need the fuse holder...
* Soldering iron, Dremel, Unibit drill bit, pieces of wire,            $0
   - Already had these items

Again, I have to stress that I'm not an expert in this stuff. Just some layperson who has read what others have done and tried to get an understanding of it. It's just a good writing exercise for me to ramble about it :) I'm sure others will point out inaccuracies in my rambling, and certainly have a much better understanding of it. My thanks to all those types that have helped me understand the little that I know.

[ramble off]
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: ChefBill on February 15, 2006, 10:31:14 PM
GO FOR IT gary_co You did good.[:D]

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Roadkill on February 16, 2006, 12:09:57 AM
Now that is what I call,as EXCELLENT EXPLANATION!Now gary_Co when yours is ready,please send me your wiring instructions,and the placement of your temp sending unit,length of thermocoupler,ect! I have a drill,dremel,and a huge Craftsman toolbox loaded with "goodies",(my way of getting even with the wife,she spends for shopping,I spend for the toolbox)and I welcome an afternoon of tinkering,as long as I have a diagram to see,and understand,,,,,thanks,and keep me updated as to your progress,and results please,,,

"PINK"-the only way,to devour a steak!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 16, 2006, 12:21:46 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ChefBill</i>
<br /><b>THOUGHT:</b>
<b>WHAT IF:</b> You placed  a Single Pole Double Throw Switch between the fuse <font color="brown">(brown dashed line)</font id="brown"> and wired one side straight to the receptacle on the rear of the smoke generator, The other would feed the SSR.
This way, when it was in one position it would feed the tower just like the OEM wiring and still let you see the temp that the PID was seeing but without the PID being in control.
This would let you set the temperature you wanted on the PID <i>( for the first smoking step)</i> and still do a fast Pre-Heat to a higher temp than the PID is set for.
Then when you load the BS up and flip the switch to PID to control what you want your smoke temperature to be. As we all know, Once we open the door and load the BS, the Temperature is going to fall into the basement for a period of time. This would help overcome this problem.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"><b>ChefBill</b> - This is exactly how I wired mine. Check the pics, it shows the switch on the back of the smoke generator.



<b>From Gary_CO:</b>  <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A fancier type controller is a PID unit. PID stands for "proportional, integral, derivative". These units are different from the standard controllers in that they work like rheostats (dimmers) and thermostats at the same time. So while the controller is turning on/off the heating element, it is also adjusting the amount of current going to the heating element. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Gary - Just to clarify one thing, the PID does not act like a rheostat as it does not vary the amout of current going to the heating element like a rheostat does. It cycles the heating element off and on repeatedly through a relay to maintain setpoint. The rate at which it cycles the heating element is dependent on mathematical calculations the PID performs, as you mention.




Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 16, 2006, 12:41:01 AM
Good Job gary_CO.
 
Last night I just had a conversation with olds about having two people post a review on his site with diagrams one for TS and one for PID.   This would be similar to nsxbill's on the Guru Raptor competitor and Procom4, http://susan.rminor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29&highlight=guru.
I know I had trouble trying to figure this all out and still am, I bought the raptor but had trouble so I was going to do the TS until I found the PID from Auberin and Bubbagumps guidance.  Will hopefully get my PID wired this weekend into a project box.  

Gary did you try the TC from Auberin's?  Bubbagump said he was having trouble and put his Omega on it.  I ordered one from Omega today, also a 10ft extension wire(cord) for $15,  so I can put it inside with warm enough ambient operating temps in winter.

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 16, 2006, 01:08:22 AM
Continued thanks, bubbagump. I wondered how the amount of current could be varied, but I know so little about all this. I think I'll modify my installation to include the double-throw switch you and Chefbill have mentioned. I simply didn't know how to wire one in.


Roadkill,
I've thought about taking pics and writing up a document on my adventure. I think it might be helpful to others. But I'd feel cheap doing so, cause none of this, repeat NONE, is based on my ideas or knowledge. I just took what others have said, especially bubbagump, and will use their knowledge to imitate their design.

If you'll go back and read this whole thread from the beginning, I think you'll see the steps involved. On page 3, I posted a wiring diagram that I believe is accurate. That's what I'll use when I hook mine up. Thanks to bubbegump's continued advice, I believe it is correct. His design is so elegant; I just have to duplicate it :)

I may go back and edit the wiring diagram to incorporate the additional switch bubbagump and Chefbill discussed. I know the drawing doesn't follow standard rules for schematics, but it's the best I can do with the software I have.

As bubbagump mentions early in this thread, if you plan on installing everything inside the smoke generator - space is tight, so plan ahead. Last thing you'd want to do is cut holes, install everything, and then find out parts won't fit back together. Not that I've ever done anything like that...

Since I've already drawn most of the parts, I'd be glad to make up another diagram that shows wiring for making the "separate project box" as opposed to installing in the smoke generator – if it would help some people. I like dinkin' around with the drawing software!


nodak,
No I haven' tried the Auber thermocouple. I just don't have much faith in it, based upon what others have said about similar ones. I figure I'll keep it as a spare.

----
A huge thanks to bubbagump for educating me on this stuff. It's his knowledge!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 16, 2006, 01:47:08 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Since I've already drawn most of the parts, I'd be glad to make up another diagram that shows wiring for making the "separate project box" as opposed to installing in the smoke generator – if it would help some people. I like dinkin' around with the drawing software!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Go for it! Sounds great, I was just doing square boxes in my diagram, I also included a fuse in my project box.

I might try the Aubrin TC this weekend if the weather stays above 0F and if my E-73 shows-up so I can comfortabley smoke overnight a brisket from when we butchered.

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 16, 2006, 03:00:12 AM
Gary,

What software are you using for your drawings.

Thanks,

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 16, 2006, 03:14:02 AM
It's Adobe Illustrator. Great for illustrations, but not so great for flowcharts and diagramming (i.e. if you move an electrical component around the wires won't "reshape" with your changes like Visio or OmniGraffle [my favorite, but it's macintosh only]).
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 16, 2006, 04:42:04 AM
Here's an attempt at a diagram for wiring the Auber components into a project box:

(http://home.comcast.net/~garyco212/misc/Auber/project_box-wiring_v1.gif)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 16, 2006, 05:48:01 AM
WOW, That was fast!!!!  Thanks for the fuse this way I only need one cord and TC out the garage door in winter and can use it for something else to.  HMMM maybe I need to start on an exhaust fan so I can just leave it the garage[:0][:D]

Now my next STUPID questions are what gauge wire should I use and should it be solid or stranded wire[?]

Thanks Everybody,
Mike H

PS

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Roadkill on February 16, 2006, 12:35:20 PM
gary_CO,
 Your very fast,becoming a Bradley Smoker Idol,an ICON,hero worship figure here!Hope your ready to accept this heavy burden the rest of your life!! Your The Man!! I think the cash will be departing from my wallet much sooner than expected now,as Easter is not that far away,and I will need practice before then,,,,thanks.

"PINK"-the only way,to devour a steak!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 16, 2006, 02:28:18 PM
Thanks for the compliment, Roadkill. All I did was draw a couple of pictures. Bubbagump is the guru on this stuff.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: lvigil on February 16, 2006, 08:30:00 PM
I have been amazed by the creativity on this forum!!!  I have been wanting to install a PID on my smoker and this is absolutely the best stuff..


Now...  I just want to buy a pre-packaged deal.  -- Plug and play-- essentialy one where it has already been put together.  all i have to do is plug it in.



Watch Out!! Hot and Spicy (&lt;:}
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Roadkill on February 16, 2006, 08:51:57 PM
gary_CO,Yes,a picture slide show,so to speak,would be excellent,along with the schematic drawing you produced. Actual visual pictures,possibly as each individual piece is installed and wired,for us electrically challenged guru's! Who do I make the check out to??

"PINK"-the only way,to devour a steak!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 17, 2006, 02:39:03 AM
Gary,

Excellent job on the drawings! Very clear and easy to interpret. I gotta get me that software.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 18, 2006, 05:27:27 AM
Illustrator is good software, but can be rather pricey. You might consider looking for a deal on "Corel Draw". It does just as much, Corel throws in a lot of handy extras, and you can usually find a really good deal on it - especially if you look for the previous version.

Hey Nodak,
I plan on using 14 gauge wire. At least that's what I think I have. Mine is stranded...

****
Dang it's cold here. 13 below. If I have to go back outside, I'm going to set myself on fire!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 18, 2006, 02:11:08 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
Now my next STUPID questions are what gauge wire should I use and should it be solid or stranded wire[?]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Sorry nodak - I missed this post. Definitely use stranded wire. 14 guage wire is <u>more</u> than sufficient for a 4 amp. load. but since you may use your PID for other things it may be wise to use larger wire. Just make sure your fuse is sized properly and I would use a fast-blow fuse not a slow-blow.

If you are installing the PID in you smoke generator you can match the wire size that it is wired with, which is 18 gauge.

Gary -  Thanks for the info on the software. I'm going to check it out.[:)]

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: headgames on February 19, 2006, 06:37:48 PM
now that I got my digital cam I can nor resist
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f51/headgames38/tempcontrol2.jpg)
 (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f51/headgames38/tempcontrol.jpg)
This is my TS series from dwyer instruments very happy with it . I personaly designed it as a plug and play for various reasons .

 #1 generator motors ... when it burns out during a smoke I just switch out the generator and continue (twice now) and I am able to still use my temp control.

#2  have a larger fridge type smoker ( my first project before bradley) figure I will convert it to a electric, slap on the smoke generator and use my temp controler box.

I used 12ga wire for the input into the box cause of my additional accessoriy outlet on the back

One last thing for newbies, thanks to Iceman's information  I go through less generator motors now . KEEP YOUR GENERATOR INDOORS AND WARM till use. Here in Wisconsin ( fridaynight -24 f at my house) the grease inside the motor gets stiff and will strip the gears when started .




If ya go home hungry.........You were at the WRONG HOUSE !
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 19, 2006, 07:08:48 PM
Headgames good advice on smoke generator, I also store mine inside in winter.  Also to help motor last longer I installed (bubbagumps idea) a toggle switch for the motor this weekend. That way I still get the extra heat from the briquette burner but motor doesn't keep cycling after I'm done smoking when I shut the toggle switch off.

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: owrstrich on February 19, 2006, 07:39:32 PM
looks good head...

i gotts the same unit and have it portable the same way...

looks like theres a minnetonka moccasins there on the ground... still trying to make out the other prints on the ground... im guessing chihuahua or the much revered leinenkugel...

anyway... when the pucks are spent... i unplug the power to smoke gen then plug it back in and the buner will remain hot and the puck motor wont run again until i hit the puck button...

you gotta eat...

owrstrich
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 19, 2006, 10:34:15 PM
Nice setup.

BTW, I've found the following to be very informative about building your own oven:

http://forum.caswellplating.com/forumdisplay.php?s=cb8a20f97364d99d61453884ff738470&f=18
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 20, 2006, 03:53:18 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by owrstrich</i>
<br />anyway... when the pucks are spent... i unplug the power to smoke gen then plug it back in and the buner will remain hot and the puck motor wont run again until i hit the puck button...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Owrstrich - Unless you have made a mod to yours this is not they way the puck advance works out of the box. Once the smoke gen. is plugged in and the power switch turned on the puck advance operates every 20 min. whether power is cycled or not.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: headgames on February 20, 2006, 04:21:14 AM
Thanks guys . will definatly do the toggle switch thing. especially with the motor problems we seem to expirence.
I think we should create a new topic on the forum of just helpful hints for new people . you know the basics that we all fumbled with before we got expirence by eating dried out extra salty foods and spent monies and wasted time we did not have to.

#1 generaly no reason to smoke more then 4 hours
#2 preheat  smoker for 1 hour pucks will advance by then
#3 keep generator out of the cold weather untill needed to save on motors
#4 install toggle switch to shut off puck advance after smoking to save on motor wear
#5 replacment motor available at http://www.partstore.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductSKU=7706476&ProductType=PART
#6 buy bubba pucks to save 2 pucks and $ on every smoke

just a sample what do you think ?

also I will take pics this week and get them posted of my puck making operation. currently enjoy a hicory/apple combo. later

If ya go home hungry.........You were at the WRONG HOUSE !
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: owrstrich on February 20, 2006, 04:59:17 AM
gump...

i can plug in the smoke gen and the puck pusher will not come on until
the switch is on and i push the puck button...

if i turn the switch off and back on and the pusher keeps running...

if i unplug the smoke gen the puck pusher will not run again until i push the puck button...

i have made no mods to the puck pusher...

thats jose cuervo and mes story...

owrstrich

Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 20, 2006, 06:14:14 AM
Sooo here's another option[}:)]  When you're finshed smoking, either manually or with a timer, turn the generator off and use a secondary heater for extra heat.
 (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/Strip.jpg)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: headgames on February 20, 2006, 01:39:08 PM
I,ll be damned looking at that pic your bowl touches your bisquette  burner too !
 <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font color="blue">One thing I noticed that causes some problems is the water basin. It touches the bisquette pad on the smoke generator and heats the water in turn heating the whole unit. (Not good for cold smoking)</font id="blue">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

If ya go home hungry.........You were at the WRONG HOUSE !
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 20, 2006, 02:34:58 PM
Owrstrich - I tested two different smoke generators and neither one of them operate like yours......strange, but interesting. Another thing that's odd is the way the two smoke generators are wired that I looked at, using the on/off switch would do the same thing as unplugging it.

TomG - Where did you route the wiring for the additional heating element? Also, are the exposed terminals on the right side of the element where the wires hook up live?

Gary - Your link did not work for me

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 20, 2006, 03:07:16 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Gary - Your link did not work for me<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oops, how 'bout:
http://forum.caswellplating.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 20, 2006, 05:09:50 PM
BubbaG, It's currently in prototype testing config. I'm planing on rewiring through the bottom of the cabinet putting the rheostat in series with the heat strip and the BS tube wired directly to the controller without a rheostat.  I'm using high temp 14g wire and have covers for the exposed terminals.(Good eye BTW)[:)]. I'll cut a piece from the pan's lip to get clearance if the pan touching the generator heater becomes a problem.  Because more than half of my smoking is cold, I'm currently building a remote box for this salmon season.  Any suggestions?
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/box.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/box1.jpg)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 20, 2006, 06:02:22 PM
Hi TG,

What's interesting to me is why the need for additional heat. I've never had a problem with my BS getting to temp. or maintaining temp in cold weather.

I have used my BS when outside temps. were in single digits and teens with it loaded pretty full with no heat problems and it has never taken an extended period of time to regain temp. after opening the door to rotate racks or change water.

If others are experiencing this problem I would suspect one of two things. Either there is a problem with the rheostat not providing full output to the heating element, or possibly that the racks are loaded too full, which will affect how the heat migrates through the box.

I almost forgot to mention, ChefBill had a similar problem with his water bowl touching his heating element and was able to tweak the position of his element without cutting his water bowl.
http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3057

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TomG on February 20, 2006, 07:17:26 PM
BG, Initially I needed the extra element because I was turning the generator off after smoking and the BS element by itself didn't provide enough heat. FYI see thread, http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2610 It's amazing how things can change in two months.

In any case, I will now be doing most of my smoking with the remote box and rather than reconnecting the generator to the cabinet when I'm finished smoking, all I have to do is switch on the heat strip.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 20, 2006, 07:45:14 PM
Thanks TG, I see the reason now. That is why I installed the switch on the puck advance motor. This way I can turn it off and leave the puck heater on. The puck heater, at 125 watts, will add an additional 25% more heat to the box.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 22, 2006, 10:56:22 PM
Houston I have a problem.

I hooked up the the PID as in the PID project box diagram,  But when I went to test this and plugged in my burner I blew the 1 amp slow blow fuse as soon as I plug in the burner.  Should the fuse be on the line going to the PID only and the wire to SSR come in direct off the hot wire before the fuse?  Do I really need this fuse??

Thanks

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 22, 2006, 11:26:32 PM
Where did the 1 amp fuse come from? I know the Auberin manual suggests that for the PID, but that would be for the PID only. What does the main heating element pull, like 400 watts. So that's over 3.5 amps.

Based on what (http://home.comcast.net/~garyco212/smileys/borank.gif)Bubbagump and Auberin said, I'd put the factory issued fuse back in and ditch the 1 amp one...
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 22, 2006, 11:32:17 PM
Gary my PID didn't come with a factory supplied fuse, Our you talking about the one in the smoke generator?  I put my PID in a project box.  I'm putting this 1 amp 250v slow blow fuse where you drew it in. I think the wire to the SSR shouldn't be on the fuse side just the wire to the PID should be fused??? Maybe I was supposed to put some other fuse in where you drew it?

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 22, 2006, 11:42:56 PM
Oh, sorry about the confusion. I'd replace the 1 amp with the same size fuse that is in the smoke generator. I can't remember what size it is but my fading memory recalls it is a 10 amp fast-blow fuse. I would think any place that sells fuses  (convenience store?) would stock that size.

If you're running the project box straight from an AC outlet, I'd sure want it fused. If you have it plugged into the smoke generator, then the generators fuse should suffice...
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 22, 2006, 11:55:12 PM
I would say I'm the confused one.  As soon as it blew and I looked at how the wires ran I knew why it blew, amps to high.  Will just use the one amp for PID meanings I have it and use back of generator til I get a higher amp one.  I messed this one up.

Thanks for the help

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 23, 2006, 01:00:05 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />I think the wire to the SSR shouldn't be on the fuse side just the wire to the PID should be fused??? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

NO. You need to put the fuse in series with the heating element on the load side of the SSR. In the event of a short this will protect your SSR as well as the wiring. <u>Do not</u> use a slo-blow fuse. The fuse in the project box can be slightly smaller than the one in the smoke generator since it won't be carrying the load from the puck heater.


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on February 23, 2006, 01:14:35 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You need to put the fuse in series with the heating element on the <b>load side</b> of the SSR.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

So what I gather from your comment means the drawings I put on page 3 & 6 are incorrect as far as the fuse and the heating element. I'm having a tough time trying to visualize how to only use one fuse to protect both the PID and the SSR...

...or maybe I'm being too literal, thinking you mean "fuse the AC line coming from the post labeled 'Load' on the SSR.

I'm having a tough time explaining myself here...
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 23, 2006, 02:18:30 PM
Gary I'm alittle confused too. I know nothing about electronics but household wiring I am more familiar at.

Here is what I'm going to do:

Using the 1 amp slow blow fuse for my PID.  I will wire a 20amp fuse on load side of my 25 amp SSR to protect it when I get time to pick one up. I put my PID in a project box to set inside for below ambient operating temperatures and  as I may use my pid for other things.  But if your putting yours inside the Generator and using their current fuse on load side you should be protected. You may want to add the 1 amp slow blow fuse for wire to PID if your worried about protecting it as I did.  Guess for as cheap as PID is if it shorted out it wouldn't be the end of the world, But could be inconvenient.  

Bubbagump how does this sound???

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 25, 2006, 11:40:03 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />You may want to add the 1 amp slow blow fuse for wire to PID if your worried about protecting it as I did.  
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

As I mentioned in another post putting a 1 amp slo-blow fuse ahead of the PID does not provide any protection for it. Just make sure you have the appropriate size fuse for your load in series with the output of your SSR. This will protect your SSR and wiring from short circuits or overloads. Also, make sure you use a <u>fast-blow</u> fuse.



Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on February 25, 2006, 01:53:02 PM
A word of advice for anyone building a PID that smokes in cold weather.  Don't use an AC cord as they get stiff in cold weather, find one of those heavy extension cords that stay flexible in subzero temperatures.  I had to wrestle mine this morning and if you touch the cord My pid would get knocked off the stand and crash to the floor(luckily it has survived, I think).

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on February 25, 2006, 02:50:07 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />A word of advice for anyone building a PID that smokes in cold weather.  Don't use an AC cord as they get stiff in cold weather, find one of those heavy extension cords that stay flexible in subzero temperatures.  I had to wrestle mine this morning and if you touch the cord My pid would get knocked off the stand and crash to the floor(luckily it has survived, I think).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Good advice nodak. Hope everything is O.K. with yours.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: begolf25 on March 06, 2006, 12:47:19 PM
Tom,
Could you drop me an email if you have the time?  I really like your set up and would like to put something together like this for my Bradley.  The email system on this forum is working right now but you can email me @ [email protected].

Thanks in advance.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TomG</i>
<br />Nodak, if you're going to do a project box installation the only other things you will need are a box[:)], a small(4 lug)terminal bar, and a heavy duty extension cord(I used a cut in half, 10' air conditioner cord).
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid1.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/Openbox.jpg)

Also checkout Sam's earlier link. http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2552 You're wiring with the SSR drive PID will be slightly different but his diagram should give you a pretty good idea of what's going on.

Totally agree with BubbaG about the thermocouple, it's marginally adequate, but for $5 you can't go wrong.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: MRH on March 06, 2006, 06:08:53 PM
The wife is gonna kill me!!![:D]  After reading this thread I can see I will have to build one of these too. She is gonna say you have only used it once, and now it will cost more!!!!

This forum is great!!
Mark
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: car54 on March 06, 2006, 08:27:09 PM
MRH,

For the price of a PID it will make your Bradley a joy to use. I basically get no temperature deviation with mine. Also, I can start a long smoke at night and go to sleep without checking on it. I can go somewhere for hours with no problem. The PID is such a good add on and that is why Bradley is offering it on the new smokers. I believe it is because of this forum that they are doing it.

Brad
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: gary_CO on March 06, 2006, 10:42:01 PM
"Yea" on what car54 said! I like dinking with stuff, but it's nice to know my newly PID controlled BS will take care of everything excellently, and I can go to bed when I want to. I feel like a broken record, but I have to once again thank bubbagump (and others) for sharing his knowledge and encouragment on the subject. Without that, I wouldn't have considered it.

I made an earlier promise to share how installing a PID like bubbagump's setup went for me and I still plan to do so. It will just take a little time to put together. Gotta say that I think it would be much simpler to build a separate "project box" for the controller, but man - does installing in the generator box make for a professional installation. Glad I struggled through it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: MRH on March 07, 2006, 12:45:38 AM
I know it will make things much better, I see posts here where guys are doing 20 hour plus smokes, man you would sure benefit from a PID on that.  I plan on doing it in a separate box since mine is brand new.  I told my wife that my 13 year old needed another 4-H project, she just laughed and said she is on to that trick!!![B)] But that would serve 2 purposes then.  Yes Bubbagumps is sure a sweet looking set up, but I will try a box for now, just have to get on the ball and order the stuff.

MRH[;)]
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on March 07, 2006, 04:38:57 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by car54</i>
<br />The PID is such a good add on and that is why Bradley is offering it on the new smokers.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I've haven't seen any description of the new Bradley digital control. The control may just be a digital thermostat similar to how the Love TS works rather than a PID. It will be interesting to see them when they are out in May.

Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: MRH on March 07, 2006, 11:57:39 AM
One question for you guys.  How much of a difference is there in the TC from Omega versus the one for 5.00 from Auberin?  Is it really worth spending the extra money if it only makes a few degrees difference in temperature swings, or is  there a lot more to it then that?  I am new to all this and learning as I go maybe trying to go too fast even.

Thanks again,
Mark
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: nodak on March 10, 2006, 01:03:03 AM
I hooked up the Aubrin TC while waiting for my Omega to arrive and it jumped around on current temp. My Omega doesn't jump around and therefore holds temp with less variance. Buy the Omega it's worth the money and yes it is much more heavyduty in it's construction. I also questioned spending the money, but I am glad I took Bubbagumps advice and ordered rightaway. Junk in Junk out. Also if you are in cold temps smoking consider buying the extension cord for the TC so you can sit your PID inside as it's minimum operating temp of 32F.  

Goodluck and if you have any questions I'm sure somebody here can help you.




"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: lvigil on April 05, 2006, 02:26:58 PM
Just got my order in from Omega and Auber.  I copied "gary_CO" and "bubbagump" on their PID setup.  I will test it over the weekend.  Thanks to all!! ;D  Gary_CO and Bubbagump ---- You RULE.........
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: green1320 on July 18, 2006, 07:21:00 PM
Can some one please give me a very detailed message on step by step on how to do this procedure. Also what exactly all does this help to do. Thanks
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: mattmilw on July 21, 2006, 02:20:24 PM
A PID precisely controls the internal temperature of your smoker. It consists of the PID itself, a solid state relay, and a thermocouple. The thermocouple is placed inside the smoker, and is connected to the pid. It monitors the temperature. The power for the heating element of the smoker is controlled by the PID, based on the feedback provided by the thermocouple. You set your desired temp on the PID, and it controls the heating element to maintain that temp. You basically set it and forget it.

It's not as big a deal as it may first seem. There are only a few parts to buy, and only a few connections to make. Read through this thread and you'll find the specifics. The cost to build mine was roughly $80 or so.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: smkdbrd on August 09, 2006, 02:17:19 PM
bubbagumps, gary, novak,   just got done putting everything together and am in the process of auto tune. Thanks a bunch for a great thread!!!!.  Question for the people that went before me...How long does it take to Auto-tune?  Is that what the "AT" is flashing on the PID(auto tune)?  Do I need to tune it everytime I run it?  After it is tuned is the only thing I have to do is hit the set button and change the setting on the lower screen?  And last but not least..is there any special settings to get the most out the pid?   Thanks a bunch to everyone!!
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: bubbagump on August 15, 2006, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: smkdbrd on August 09, 2006, 02:17:19 PM
bubbagumps, gary, novak,   just got done putting everything together and am in the process of auto tune. Thanks a bunch for a great thread!!!!.  Question for the people that went before me...How long does it take to Auto-tune?  Is that what the "AT" is flashing on the PID(auto tune)?  Do I need to tune it everytime I run it?  After it is tuned is the only thing I have to do is hit the set button and change the setting on the lower screen?  And last but not least..is there any special settings to get the most out the pid?   Thanks a bunch to everyone!!

smkdbrd,

If you're using the Auberin PID read through this thread. If not, let me know which one you are.

http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=2829.0


Bubbagump
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: robs on August 15, 2006, 03:38:32 PM
Quote from: smkdbrd on August 09, 2006, 02:17:19 PM
bubbagumps, gary, novak,   just got done putting everything together and am in the process of auto tune. Thanks a bunch for a great thread!!!!.  Question for the people that went before me...How long does it take to Auto-tune?  Is that what the "AT" is flashing on the PID(auto tune)?  Do I need to tune it everytime I run it?  After it is tuned is the only thing I have to do is hit the set button and change the setting on the lower screen?  And last but not least..is there any special settings to get the most out the pid?   Thanks a bunch to everyone!!

In AT mode it will overshoot and undershoot the set temp 3 times, then it is done. AT will quit flashing.

I beleive you only use AT when extreme variables change, such as adding a different TC or ambient switching from 0 to 90.

The set temp will last from one session to the next. If you set it at 225, it will be set at 225 the next time you plug it in.

If you have trouble with AT, send me a PM. I have emails from Auber that may help the situation. I am also in the process of putting together a new thread on how to wire the whole thing together and set it up. I had ALOT of help from one of the members here, who had alot of help from another member, who...

I would be curious to know if you experience temp swings like I was. http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=3681.0

rob
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: smkdbrd on September 16, 2006, 07:01:38 PM
robs, sorry for late reply(way late!!)  smoked brisket and pork butt on 1st trial.  Smoked a 13lb CAB that was "wet aged" for 30 days and the butt was about 4.5 pounds(halfer).  cooked thru the night and only got up once to change the pucks and water,  held temp within 2 degrees using a maverick and the pid reading.  Brisket was great!!!!! Pork Butt I believe was too done at about 185 degrees.  this is the only way to go.  Made the pid with 25 amp ssr and did the bypass switch thing so that it heats up the bradley  to a higher temp.  Plan on using this in my old electric brinkmans that has a 1800 watt element.   The box is protected with a fast blow fuse on the load side of 20 amps.  I'll post when I try this out but am waiting for a little cooler weather.  Thanks for everything  this site is the best.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: robs on September 16, 2006, 07:06:52 PM
Quote from: smkdbrd on September 16, 2006, 07:01:38 PM
robs, sorry for late reply(way late!!)  smoked brisket and pork butt on 1st trial.  Smoked a 13lb CAB that was "wet aged" for 30 days and the butt was about 4.5 pounds(halfer).  cooked thru the night and only got up once to change the pucks and water,  held temp within 2 degrees using a maverick and the pid reading.  Brisket was great!!!!! Pork Butt I believe was too done at about 185 degrees.  this is the only way to go.  Made the pid with 25 amp ssr and did the bypass switch thing so that it heats up the bradley  to a higher temp.  Plan on using this in my old electric brinkmans that has a 1800 watt element.   The box is protected with a fast blow fuse on the load side of 20 amps.  I'll post when I try this out but am waiting for a little cooler weather.  Thanks for everything  this site is the best.


Awesome! I love it when a plan comes together.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: mhoy on February 05, 2011, 08:39:10 AM
Quote from: MRH on March 06, 2006, 06:08:53 PM
The wife is gonna kill me!!![:D]  After reading this thread I can see I will have to build one of these too. She is gonna say you have only used it once, and now it will cost more!!!!

This forum is great!!
Mark

Wow, I think I'm going to have to do this at some point and I've only started my 2nd smoke today!  ;D

Mark
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Habanero Smoker on February 05, 2011, 01:23:38 PM
Mark;

The following link may be of further assistance:
PID Controller (http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?315-PID-Controller)
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: smoker pete on February 05, 2011, 02:19:35 PM
Or you could just buy one that's already built and programmed for a Bradley.  They have a single and/or dual probe model.  Check out the Auber Instruments PID at http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=72 (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=72)  I have the single probe model and love it.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: TedEbear on February 06, 2011, 07:31:16 AM
Quote from: mhoy on February 05, 2011, 08:39:10 AMWow, I think I'm going to have to do this at some point and I've only started my 2nd smoke today!  ;D

Mark

I recently did this to mine and it turned out great.  Less than $45 for the Auber PID controller, $15 for a 25A relay, $15 for an Auber clip-on TC and a free heatsink I salvaged from some scrap computer stuff at work.  I mounted it all inside the smoke generator box, like I saw some others do on here.  The final result looks like it came that way from the factory.

I also added a second heating element while I had everything apart.  Preheat times are now less than 15 minutes, even when the outdoor temp is below freezing. 
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: mhoy on February 06, 2011, 09:39:08 AM
It's funny, the other thread is what eventually led me to this one.

I happen to have a PID laying around from a project I never got around to using (putting a PID in my restored Elektra T1 espresso machine).   It's not the same size as many of you have used so it may not fit inside the smoke unit. I'll have to check it out when I'm not smoking something.  :D   I really like the clean look of having it inside the smoke box so I may be ordering from Auber or Ebay. 

Mark
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: West TN Smoker on February 06, 2011, 10:37:21 AM

I did exactly what TedEBear did, it really kicks butt.

Thanks for all the info and pics, bubba and the others.
Title: Re: bubbagumps custom PID
Post by: Habanero Smoker on February 07, 2011, 01:26:47 AM
A couple of things about putting the PID in the smoke generator you may want to give some thought to. Though it is convenient, if the generator breaks down and needs to be replaced, you will have to reinstall the PID in the new generator. Also it may limit it's use to only the Bradley Smoker while a stand-alone can be easily used to control other devices.