I have sent the following email to Brian at Bradley. Lets hope he can give us a definitive answer.
Dear Brian
I am an owner of a Bradley Digital 4 rack smoker for about three months now and I am also a frequent visitor/participator in your Bradley Smoker forums. These forums have provided me with a wealth of knowledge about the use of the Bradley smoker as well as many recipes and tricks of the smoking trade.
Recently there has been discussion about the ability of the smokers to recover their heat after the door has been opened for one reason or another. Especially in the colder climates like we have here in Alberta now. It seems that many Bradley owners have modified their smokers by either adding a second element or replacing the existing element with one of larger capacity (750-900 watts). This practice has been going on for years and there doesn't seem to be any serious incidents reported by doing this modification however along with the larger or second element it seems that you have to add a P.I.D. to control the higher wattage and bypass the Bradley electronics altogether. Although I am sure Bradley does not condone this practice it seems to be working very well for the people that have modified their smokers.
This brings me to my questions. Just what is it in the Bradley Digital Smoker that cannot handle the extra wattage and why doesn't Bradley offer a smoker with a higher watt element? Is there something in the electronics or is it the actual heating of the cabinet that is at issue here. Are the people who are doing this modification risking fire by adding the extra watts? I do not in any way expect you to condone this practice but there are many topics on this issue on the Bradley forums and inquiring minds would like to know exactly why or if Bradley suggests not doing this modification and what exactly would happen to the smoker if one were to add the additional watts to the existing Bradley electronics.
I would like to thank you in advance for helping out with this issue. It will put a lot of discussion to rest if we can get a good clear answer from you.
Respectfully
D. Andrews
Well written and respectful.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Good e-mail, but you need to remember that Bradley's are sold in a lot of countries and making a unit to fit all of these is a trick in it's self.
Just because the USA and I guess Canada use a certain power grid does not mean other countries do or could handle the power needs of higher wattage elements. I know a few that have bumped theirs up but would it work in another country?
Just a note, I work on Honda and Acura cars and there are many things over seas they won't bring here because of laws or regulations.
So thinking this way is the reason why I posted this
A fair question though!
This is the best site EVER! Here's looking forwad to some great information! (OK?) :)
Got my reply but unfortunately you guys are going to have to take my word it for once I speak to Brian Nelson.
Hi Doug
I would be happy to discuss these issues with you send me your phone number or feel free to call me @ 604-946-3848
Thank You
Brian Nelson
Production Manager
Bradley Smokers
8380 River Road
Delta BC. V4G-1B5
Ph 604-946-3848
Fx 604-946-3839
1-866-508-7514
[email protected]
I'll call him---I am really good at interacting with people. :)
I just called him. He was not in but I left my number with the girl on the phone.
Yeah, I got the same story...not in. But, I distinctly heard a, "Hell no!" after the assistant said to hold for a second. She then came back on and said he wasn't in. Perhaps word of my stellar interpersonal skills have made their way to British Columbia. :)
Well I just had a 15 minute chat with Brian Nelson from Bradley and I must say he is a very pleasant guy. Apparently they have been monitoring this topic over the last few days and actually had a meeting this morning to discuss how they would handle my email. That is why he did not reply by email however he did say that he would send me an email that I could put on the forum to address this issue. Basically the reason Bradley does not support the addition of larger or more elements is because they simply are not certified for that and they have to be certified in so many different countries that it is not cost efficient to do so. I personally got the answer that I was looking for but in respect for Brian I will keep it off the record as he requested at this time. I will post the emailed response as soon as I get it.
What'd he say about me (dcw1)? All good I suppose. :)
The reply
Hello Doug
It was a pleasure to speak directly with you today.
The current models of smokers go through electrical certification to operate with a 500W element. We cannot and will not condone the use of anything other than the current element for the current models.
Thank You
Brian Nelson
Production Manager
Bradley Smokers
8380 River Road
Delta BC. V4G-1B5
Ph 604-946-3848
Fx 604-946-3839
1-866-508-7514
[email protected]
Renoman, thank you for your efforts. Given the number of views here (which continue to climb), you have a captive audience.
Unfortunately, even the manufacturer, the one entity that would specifically know the answer, did not give a detailed factual answer (along the lines of Beefmann's answer). Obviously, that is the prudent course for Bradley and I don't blame them for such a vanilla answer.
But the fact that they didn't write how dangerous such modifications are.... well maybe, just maybe... they know the smoker will be ok with the upgraded 900-watt element and the original controls. But, they just don't want to say so for liability purposes.
More research is needed because we still don't know the answer. I will post something after I speak to an electrical engineer or an electrician.
Good grief, who knew the search for the truth could be so bloody exhausting.
Quote from: dcw1 on January 02, 2014, 02:55:00 PM
Renoman, thank you for your efforts. Given the number of views here (which continue to climb), you have a captive audience.
Unfortunately, even the manufacturer, the one entity that would specifically know the answer, did not give a detailed factual answer (along the lines of Beefmann's answer). Obviously, that is the prudent course for Bradley and I don't blame them for such a vanilla answer.
But the fact that they didn't write how dangerous such modifications are.... well maybe, just maybe... they know the smoker will be ok with the upgraded 900-watt element and the original controls. But, they just don't want to say so for liability purposes.
More research is needed because we still don't know the answer. I will post something after I speak to an electrical engineer or an electrician.
Good grief, who knew the search for the truth could be so bloody exhausting.
dcw1, if you consider the variety of Bradley smokers that are in use, you can see why your simple question is so hard to answer. Over the years, a variety of different components may have been used in a variety of different models of smokers. Some components might be rated for more than 500 watts, while another component used for the same purpose at a differ point in time may not be. To give a credible recommendation, a person would have to know exactly what components have been used over the years, and in which configurations. And then, assuming that you were qualified, you'd have to do a system analysis of each possible configuration to determine the maximum capacity of that particular configuration. So, the safe approach for Bradley is to say "Bradley does not recommend modifying your Bradley smoker" and for those who have made mods, unless you are an electrical engineer or someone else who is qualified to analyze the recommended capacity of each and every component of the heating system, to say use an after market controller that is rated for the wattage that you are installing.
Now, if you know a qualified person who owns you big time, you might be able to get them to disassemble your smoker and maybe the smoke generator to see what parts it contains, who made each part, and look up the specs on each of the parts to determine the rated capacity of each part. (Note that this could be a challenge since, as far as I know, the smokers are assembled in China and may contain components which are not included in reference material commonly used in the US or Canada.) If you'd have to pay someone to do this type of reverse engineering of your smoker's heating system, it would probably be way cheaper and easier to drop a couple of hundred dollars on an after market plug and play temp controller that you know will work with the heater configuration you want. Maybe that's why the accepted wisdom is "The heating system, as designed, is not rated for more than 500 watts. If you want more heat generating capacity, we suggest you use an after market controller rated for the appropriate wattage.".
I agree totally with you tskeeter. There is no simple answer to this question but I do believe there is a "right" answer to the question regarding the 4-rack digital smoker. No doubt the conventional wisdom is to use a PID. There are a few reasons I don't want to do that though:
1. the cost of the PID. Whether a cheap $50 PID or a decent $150 PID, it may be wasted $$. Throw in the new element (about $50), and you are looking at 25% to 50% of the cost of the smoker. Is this going to break the bank? Not for 99% of the members here---on a good weekend, you all spend that on ribs.
2. with a PID, you now have an extra box with extra wires that you have to deal with. Aesthetically and convenience-wise, the original control box is better.
3. it just may not be necessary.
Now, I did speak to an electrician. He echoed Beefmann. The fact that the fuse is rated for 10 amps means the controls should not be damaged unless that is exceeded and the fuse doesn't do its job. Fuses are the weak link in any system. Exceeding the fuse rating will cause the fuse to blow thus protecting the controls. Now the electrician did say that if you have something else plugged into the same wall socket as the smoker, you risk blowing the fuse in the house control panel.
More expert information is needed in my mind before I slap a 900-watt element in there without a PID. But things seem to be pointing in that direction as opposed to a PID.
WHO KNOWS, THIS COULD CHANGE THE WORLD IN WHICH YOU SMOKE! And you could then dump your PID on Craigslist and buy more ribs! :)
Quote from: dcw1 on January 02, 2014, 05:09:41 PM
2. with a PID, you now have an extra box with extra wires that you have to deal with.
Not necessarily. Here's my "cheap" $45 Auber PID mounted in my SG box:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b355/roadijeff/Food/IMG_0594_zpsfd6577ea.jpg)
Quote from: TedEbear on January 02, 2014, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: dcw1 on January 02, 2014, 05:09:41 PM
2. with a PID, you now have an extra box with extra wires that you have to deal with.
Not necessarily. Here's my "cheap" $45 Auber PID mounted in my SG box:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b355/roadijeff/Food/IMG_0594_zpsfd6577ea.jpg)
TedEbear, I love your PID. I should have gone that route but I just received my plug and play a few days ago. I agree with dcw1 that the mess of wires is an inconvenience especially if you are exposed to the elements.
In the picture, what is the actual PID?
See the details in this thread
http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=22065.0 (http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=22065.0)
This is what one looks like before getting installed in the smoke generator.
(http://www.auberins.com/images/SYL1.jpg)
As far as your statement about how it might change my way of smoking and I would sell my pid on creigs list, not going to happen. The bradley controller will never give me the tight temp control (even if it can handle the modded element that my PID gives me. I do a lot of sausage and I need that tight control.
Ok, Very nice--I will say the picture is aesthetically pleasing for that model. However, the face of the Bradley model in the picture does not look anything like my model. Mine is a BTDS76P and I don't see how that PID could attach to the face without messing up the digital display that is there.
I hope to hear today from some more electricians about the use of the 900-watt element with the original controls. The 8.4 amps that the 900-watt element may draw --is that getting to close to the 10 amp fuse rating for comfort or is that a big enough cushion? And two 500-watt elements would make that cushion even smaller.
Is there a middle ground? The 900-watt element gives you 80% more heat. Is there a 750-watt element---that would give you 50% more heat and then just leave the controls as is? I am not cooking in the Great White North (previously livid in Ottawa for 4 years—awesome city!) so frigid outdoor temperatures are not an issue right now. In fact, since getting this tin can, I just cook in my garage and I just open the garage door when firing up the smoke feature.
I am not concerned about tight temperature control. I want this thing to reach 320 (maximum setting on original controls) in 20 minutes as opposed to taking an hour to reach 280 without opening the door once. I want fast recovery when basting/checking meat and quick pre-heating---that's it.
To be honest, I want to bake a cake in it. So there you have it.
Had another person with some electrical know-who share the following:
500 watts/120 volts = 4.1 amps
900 watts/120 volts = 7.5 amps
This does not take into account the puck burner but does conform and echo Beefmann's analysis.
Cake baking here we come!
Quote from: dcw1 on January 03, 2014, 03:56:31 AMI want this thing to reach 320 (maximum setting on original controls) in 20 minutes as opposed to taking an hour to reach 280 without opening the door once. I want fast recovery when basting/checking meat and quick pre-heating---that's it.
Seriously? The high temp sensor would shut off the Bradley before it ever got that high. I believe the sensor trips at 275*F.
Also, if you want to know the amps for a specific load here's the formula:
watts = volts x amps
amps = watts / volts
volts = watts / amps
The digital control maximum setting is 320. I have run it sans food, door closed, and the temperature reading on the digital display got up to 293. At that point I just turned it off. I will do this again with a probe or an oven thermometer because I don't know if it actually got up to 293. But that is what the "oven temp" on the control panel said.
Regardless of that, it took quite some time to reach 293. And that was without opening the door once.
The higher element wattage should allow for quicker ramp up time and quicker recovery---and I assume may get it to the max temperature (whatever that is---320 or something lower). I assume that since the original Bradley controls allow a setting of 320, the high temperature sensor would at least let the unit approach 320. 275 seems really low given the unit itself said the oven temperature was at 293.
When using PID, does the PID have an upper limit control/sensor or do you still just rely on the Bradley's original upper limit sensor?
Interesting thread. Kind of like reading a forum dedicated to car racing. Some of you seem to want a high performance grill that can infuse some smoke. Nothing wrong with playing around with it like you guys are doing so long as you keep safety as a priority. I enjoy reading how you guys tinker with these things but everyone should keep in mind that doing so could be dangerous to the everyday John or Jane Doe, and one should not blame the manufacturer for following the safety rules and regulations. You guys should also warn the average non-electrician folks of the potential dangers when you make these kinds of posts.
I personally like the low and slow characteristics of the Bradley. Granted I added a PID so that it will maintain a more constant temperature, especially during the last part of the cook, but in my humble opinion the Bradley produces the best smoked meat right out of the box that I have ever tasted. If you think about it, there must be some reason why smoking competitions do not allow the use of the Bradley.
For the bulk of Bradley users out there - If you do a modification to enhance the cooking temp please be safe. You may want to make sure it is away from the house so that if it catches on fire your house does not go up in smoke with it. Also, some of the posts harp on temperature recovery being an issue. It is true that sometimes it can take a little time to recover if you open the door but I have never had this situation change the overall quality of the finished product, only extend the time it takes to finish the cook. A good remedy for this is don't open the door so much or add something like a couple of bricks to help heat it back up. If you are in a hurry you may want to use a hard wood smoker or simply transfer to your house oven or grill after the smoke period is over.
dcw1
I was the one who originally did the dual element mod. In doing so I wanted accomplish a few things I felt it had problems with. Namely temperature recovery and tighter temperature tolerances.
First off, I'm not an electrician nor an engineer. The dilemma of what the original controls are capable of handling has always been hard to pin down and short of testing it I don't think you will figure it out. As has been said, usually... the fuse is the weak link. Also having said that, it is my understanding for safety sakes you don't want to exceed 80% of the circuits capacity. Taking this into account you would want to keep your draw at 8 amps or less. You also want to make sure you are taking everything that consumes power into account such as the element, puck burner, puck pusher and any other electronics. Based on this just the 900 watt element and the 125 watt puck burner will be drawing between 8.6 and 9.3 amps which is beginning to crowd the capacity of the fuse and possibly the other electronics and it's certainly encroaching well into the 80% rule.
If you are "not" concerned with the temperature swings that are common with the factory controls a simpler solution is to switch the larger drawing elements using a SSR which is controlled by the existing controls. The trigger voltage of the SSR would have to handle 120v though. This way there would actually be less load on the existing factory controls.
As far as the insulation area directly behind the elements goes I scrapped the foam out of mine and used Mineral wool insulation. Mineral wool is rated around 2000 degrees so there is no problem with it.
There is no question with a 900 or 1000 watts of elements the cabinet will be capable of reaching 320 degrees. Not that I would recommend running it there as in my opinion the cabinet was not really designed for higher temperatures such as this. There is also a thermal fuse in the back of the cabinet that you will have trouble with when you start crowding 300 degrees.
... Not too sure about your "bake" idea! ;D
... just my 2 cents on the subject, ;)
Mike
Personally I would not hesitate to put a 750 watt replacement element in my Bradley digital and that may just be the answer to the heat recovery problems. However it will not solve the case of the wild temp swings. I was doing some testing in my shop yesterday with my new PID and put the probes from the PID, the Maverick 732 and my Thermopen all in the same close area in the cabinet. Set the PID for 175 degrees. The three of them stayed within 3 degrees of each other but the readout on the Bradley was all over the map. I would not trust it for a minute. I believe the Thermopen is the most accurate of them all.
Renoman
Your right. You want to measure the temperature just below the meat so you can tell what the meat is being exposed to. The BDS temp probe is in the back of the cabinet. Sometimes your meat is below it or right near to it and therefore influences it. Also, there can be a lot heat run up the back of the cabinet which can influence it as well. Another thing is by having the temp probe mounted in the back of the cabinet the cabinet itself will influence the readings.
Ultimately, you want to control the temp the meat is being exposed to and the best way to do that is with the temp probe below the meat. Of course not directly below it so it's not dripping on it.
Mike
This is a 750w element. Non production Bradley
(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab242/nepas1/2014%20sausage/750w.jpg)
Quote from: NePaSmoKer on January 03, 2014, 07:16:35 AM
This is a 750w element. Non production Bradley
(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab242/nepas1/2014%20sausage/750w.jpg)
NePa, do you run that element without a PID?
It seems that the scales are tipping to larger elements not necessarily burning out the original controls. There still is need for some caution but it does not appear that a blanket prohibition is in order. Especially if you look at a 750-watt element.
Now, the real answer here is for someone to do what has been recommended by many to me---slap her in there and tell us what happens. But, I am not such a fool that would try that on a brand new X-Mas gift. I still want my original controls.
So, the real heroes here could be those that have a PID! You aren't using your original controls! So you TEST IT with your old controls that are essentially worthless to you anyway. Who cares if the old controls zap out? You aren't using them anyway. So, what's the harm? I say this with all sincerity and I certainly don't want anything to catch on fire. I suspect the first thing that would happen is a blown fuse.
So, be a hero. If you aren't using the original controls, unhook your PID and re-hook the originals. And bake a cake!
To echo Renoman, if NePaSmoKer is not using a PID, we may have our answer!
Quote from: dcw1 on January 03, 2014, 07:55:28 AM
It seems that the scales are tipping to larger elements not necessarily burning out the original controls. There still is need for some caution but it does not appear that a blanket prohibition is in order. Especially if you look at a 750-watt element.
Now, the real answer here is for someone to do what has been recommended by many to me---slap her in there and tell us what happens. But, I am not such a fool that would try that on a brand new X-Mas gift. I still want my original controls.
So, the real heroes here could be those that have a PID! You aren't using your original controls! So you TEST IT with your old controls that are essentially worthless to you anyway. Who cares if the old controls zap out? You aren't using them anyway. So, what's the harm? I say this with all sincerity and I certainly don't want anything to catch on fire. I suspect the first thing that would happen is a blown fuse.
So, be a hero. If you aren't using the original controls, unhook your PID and re-hook the originals. And bake a cake!
But the puck advance is part of the controls.
Right on the puck advance. My brother-in-law said the same thing and he has a digital model with larger element and a PID. I guess you risk frying everything and so re-hooking a PID won't fix a burned out puck advance control (or whatever it is called).
And to be accurate, testing this on a non-digital smoker really doesn't answer the question.
OK, who wants to risk their puck advance controls? :)
How much does a replacement control box (the thing with the pucks stacked) on a digital smoker cost? There are a bunch of views on this thread. I am sure there are some duplicates. But let's say there are 100 people watching this. If everyone kicked in $2-$3 into a Paypal account, someone with a higher wattage element already installed could buy a replacement box and test this out, and post a report with pictures.
750w
2 Years
0 issues
I traded my 1000w 6 rack to 10.5. Again 0 issues
(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab242/nepas1/2014%20sausage/4750w.jpg)
Now to bake a cake and drink more nepas coolaid
I misread NePaSmoKer. So it can be done using a 750-watt element without a PID and without problems to the controls. That is using a digital control box, correct?
Wow, I expect to see a bunch of used PIDs on ebay and Craigslist shortly. :)
You can see Nepas Auber in the pic if I'm not mistaken... Looks like PID is in use.
NePaSmoKer---clarification please???
STLstyle is questioning whether you are using a PID because of your picture.
Personally, I think it is a weather radio but I may be wrong.
Re-read the posts. When asked "Do you run that element without a PID", NePas said, "No'.
OK. What gives?? The issue is can you replace the original 500-watt element with a 750-watt element and still use the digital controls.
NePaSmoKer please clarify your post. If you are using a PID, what does the "0 issues" mean? I believe it has been established that one can change to 900-watt (or 2 500-watt) element without problems when using a PID.
Again, the question is can the original digital controls, including the puck handler, handle the higher wattage element without a PID?
Quote from: dcw1 on January 03, 2014, 08:41:06 AM
Right on the puck advance. My brother-in-law said the same thing and he has a digital model with larger element and a PID. I guess you risk frying everything and so re-hooking a PID won't fix a burned out puck advance control (or whatever it is called).
And to be accurate, testing this on a non-digital smoker really doesn't answer the question.
OK, who wants to risk their puck advance controls? :)
How much does a replacement control box (the thing with the pucks stacked) on a digital smoker cost? There are a bunch of views on this thread. I am sure there are some duplicates. But let's say there are 100 people watching this. If everyone kicked in $2-$3 into a Paypal account, someone with a higher wattage element already installed could buy a replacement box and test this out, and post a report with pictures.
The non digital replacement smoke generator is about $170 at Cabela's and I don't know how much more the digital is to replace, that being said, you seem to be the one most interested in attempting this so in all sincerity I would suggest you look for a used smoke generator on Craigslist or somewhere and test it out and satisfy your own curiosity. I'm not so sure that the number of views is indicative of a large number of people wanting to know the answer or if they are just curious to see how this thread plays out.
Nicely put Saber 4.
He does seem to be the one with the most interest. I am just watching to see how it plays out myself.
Right, the number of views in NOT indicative of interest----- it is indicative of non-interest. Thank you for pointing out I am the only one interested in this. Once again, postings that have nothing to do with the topic but attack me, my motives, or point out what you don't care about.
Please keep your comments to yourself if you have to say something about me.
Saber 4, keep reading, maybe you'll learn something.
NePaSmoKer, thank you for your clouding the waters and failing to clarify. Perhaps this thread should be shut down rather than you clarifying your posts. Good grief!
dcw1,
I did my best to try to get my point across to you without being insulting or rude, I don't understand your apparent need to take things out of context and reply in the negative, I did not, I repeat did not say that the number of views did not indicate non interest (your words) I simply stated that it may not indicate that all views were interested in your scheme and that some may just be interested in seeing if you replied as you just did. The number of views is simply a recording of how many times someone has looked not how many people have looked, there may only be 10-15 people of thousands on the forum looking and re-looking at this post.
If you are going to post suggestions, then you should be open to any dialogue offered to your positions as you stated previously when complaining about "censorship"
As for NePa's failure to clarify in your opinion, I will grant you that his reply got buried in the middle of a quote making it a little difficult to spot at first but it is a clear "no" to your question of whether he used a PID or not with his 750 watt digital smoker.
dcw1, Calm down or you will get this thread shut down as well. If some can find me a source for a 750 watt element I will put it in as soon as I can get my hands on it. The source has to ship to Canada without a charge that is more than a new generator.
I do not think anyone is attacking you. Simply agreeing with Saber in pointing out that you seem to have the most interest at this point in time and seem to want everyone to do the testing for you. We would all love for you to take the bull by the horns and post your results. I am always fascinated with experiments but have neither the knowledge nor desire to actually conduct experiments in areas involving electronics. Please continue but lets get away from the attitude that everyone is picking on you. I harbor no ill feelings towards you and am interested in seeing the results.
I really dont see what you don't understand about Nepas setup.
You asked:
NePa, do you run that element without a PID?
He answered:
No
You said:
Personally, I think it is a weather radio but I may be wrong.
My answer to you is yes you are wrong. The upside down bradley rack cut out to slide down and fit between his smoke generator and smoker holds his PID. He has many posts with his setup if you care to look.
Why is the post count so high on this thread and why do I keep coming back to read it.
I really have no fricken idea as it has nothing to offer other than entertainment at this point.
Any modification Bradley would acknowledge and/or approve would require them to submit everything to UL,NFS,CA EU and who knows how many other agencies for approval. A very time consuming and costly process (from experience) Their equipment as sold is approved by necessary agencies. Any modifications would be solely the Responsibility of the person making the changes. I have chosen not to modify mine but will not rule it out. I have a PID and use it to control water temps and on a home made smoker cabinet for temp control only.
I've been trying very hard to restrain myself and refrain from posting but it's no use. Guys, think about this like you would a nasty itch . As hard as it may be at the time, if you ignore it long enough it will eventually cease to be a source of irritation. If you get my drift.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
I keep checking back on it solely for the entertainment value.
I just get a kick out of how some people beat a dead horse.
I'll look for a 750-watt element for Renoman.
Over 500 visits. Probably only about 20 of us interested folks watching this :)
I still think it is a weather radio. :)
I am going to beat this dead horse until we get a definitive answer. :) :)
Just got off the phone with an electrical engineer. He confirmed that the calculations and posts on this site about the amps are spot on. He did say (as someone else said) to be completely accurate and safe all components need to be added to calculate the total amps. That would include the puck heater, the motor that moves the pucks, the lights on the digital controls, and anything else I am not thinking of. I have no idea what the puck motor or lights would draw in terms of amps.
More proof digital controls on a 750-watt element should fine without a PID.
Stay the course citizens, stay the course! Do not be discouraged by nay-sayers!
Do not let me be put to shame, for I take refuge in you. Psalm 25:20
Hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us. Romans 5:5
Blessed Savior, you continually pour your limitless love into us. Let us open our hearts and touch those in our communities who have strayed from your tender embrace, especially those who are without hope. We ask this in your precious name. Amen.
Devo, please stay on topic. If you don't like the topic, please simply peruse other sites or threads.
Mr. Moderator, I have been adhering to all the policies and making zero personal attacks. Please examine the previous posts and take appropriate action against devo and the others here who are simply being negative. He doesn't like the topic so he attacks me personally. Please put a stop to those who keep attacking me or encouraging others to ignore this thread or not comment on it. There is nothing in this thread that violates the site's policies except those that keep posting about me---as opposed to the actual topic (use of a digital smoker without a PID).
Mr. Moderator, think about this. The worst thing you can do is lock or shut down this thread. Then those, like devo, that want to quell discussion have won. Don't let that happen. Discussion and banter hurts no one.
Quote from: dcw1 on January 03, 2014, 05:07:46 AMI assume that since the original Bradley controls allow a setting of 320, the high temperature sensor would at least let the unit approach 320.
I think the speedometer on my Sebring has a max reading of 150 mph. That doesn't mean the car can actually go that fast or that it was engineered to do so. I seriously doubt that the thermal overload in your digital Bradley would allow a 320*F temp before it shuts everything down. 290-whatever degrees you posted was probably right on the edge of tripping it.
I have a PID controller on my OBS and dual 500W elements. I probably do not need either one for the things I smoke. I just like tinkering with things, I read about various mods for the Bradley, I've used PID controllers in my job in the past and it seemed like a couple of fun projects. I did replace the stock 10A fuse with a 15A.
No need to verify with any electrical engineers on the current draw. I gave you the formulas, all you need are the total watts to calculate it yourself.
TedEbear:
As stated I know nothing about electricity except enough to know not to stick my finger in a socket. However, I am very comfortable wiring lights, switches, repairing appliances. But, when doing so, my ability is strictly taking out an old worn out part (for example a motor on dryer), and putting in the new part. A to A, B to B. Black to black, white to white. So pardon what might seem like stupid questions.
That said, I am surprised you would up your fuse up to a 15 amp fuse. If the combination of all the electrical components (main element, puck heater, puck motor, display lights) exceeded 10 amps and I had a 15 amp fuse in there, would that risk burning out some of the electrical/digital controls?
As far as the high limit, when using a PID, is the smoker's original high limit bypassed/not used. With a PID, what, if any, is the high limit safety feature?
Quote from: dcw1 on January 04, 2014, 05:28:37 AM
Devo, please stay on topic. If you don't like the topic, please simply peruse other sites or threads.
Mr. Moderator, I have been adhering to all the policies and making zero personal attacks. Please examine the previous posts and take appropriate action against devo and the others here who are simply being negative. He doesn't like the topic so he attacks me personally. Please put a stop to those who keep attacking me or encouraging others to ignore this thread or not comment on it. There is nothing in this thread that violates the site's policies except those that keep posting about me---as opposed to the actual topic (use of a digital smoker without a PID).
Mr. Moderator, think about this. The worst thing you can do is lock or shut down this thread. Then those, like devo, that want to quell discussion have won. Don't let that happen. Discussion and banter hurts no one.
I do not want to attack you but I would like to get you to reexamine this thread and take a closer look at how you are coming across. Your second post you came across as a little cocky. This normally would not be taken offensively. Your third post started hinting that people do not like you. This too could be taken lightly, but you eventually get to where you imply that everyone is attacking you. Also, as I pointed out before you want certain experiments done but apparently want others to do it for you. It was suggested that since you want it you should do it yourself. You seemed to view this suggestion as an attack. Also, you implied that NEPAS would not answer your question when he obviously did. I am not trying to be an accuser here but wanted to help you get along with folks on this wonderful forum and have you reexamine yourself. You should also consider that this was not your thread. The folks on here are like family and being considerate is a big factor in why.
Now as far as your research, I have an interest in how it turns out. I am happy with my set up and would never supercharge mine, but I enjoy seeing what can be done.
Quote from: dcw1 on January 04, 2014, 05:47:48 AMAs far as the high limit, when using a PID, is the smoker's original high limit bypassed/not used. With a PID, what, if any, is the high limit safety feature?
The thermal overload is inside the tower. You can see it as a little button on the back wall of the smoking chamber. The PID controller just feeds power to the tower (hey, that rhymes :) ) and thus it would not bypass the overload.
(http://www.yardandpool.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/190x190/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/e/tempsensor-2.jpg)
On the fuse rating, when you add up every single electrical component in a modified Bradley it can approach the 10A original fuse rating, especially if someone adds in a circulation fan. I was planning on adding one but for now I'm happy with what I've done to it so far. Individual components, such as the puck heater, only draw around 1A ( 125W / 120v = 1.04A ) and a 15A or even a 10A fuse is way over the 20% safety margin. A 15A fuse is still going to blow in the event of a catastrophic failure.
I did add a secondary 5A fuse strictly to protect the PID controller. It draws such a miniscule amount of power and it is a critical electrical component that I wanted a smaller rated fuse to protect it. The power for the 500W elements goes through a 25A rated SSR. The PID just switches the relay on and off, as needed.
Quote from: TedEbear on January 04, 2014, 06:49:54 AM
The power for the 500W elements goes through a 25A rated SSR.
If this is in fact the case then there should be no reason 1000 watts would do any harm to the smoker because all that power is just going through the SSR, the power cord, the wires to the element and the element(s) themselves. The power on the switching side of the relay would be involved with the digital controls but have nothing to do with the heating side of the relay.
dcw1
I am not attacking you at all sir. I am praying for you. My prayers for you might be for you to succeed in your venture, but that is between myself and the big guy upstairs.
TedEbear: I always wondered about the round thing in the back of the smoker. Thx.
Renoman and TedEbear: What the heck is a 25A SSR?
750 watts/120 volts = 6.25 amps (main upgraded element)
125 watts/120 volts = 1.04 amps (puck heater)
So that is about 7.29 amps for the upgraded main and puck heaters.
But how much juice (for lack of a better term) do you think the puck feeder motor and the digital lights would use? I can't imagine that the puck feeder motor and the digital display would account for an additional 2.71 amps and push this over the 10 amp fuse level. But I really don't know.
Wildcat, I only suggested others try the "experiment" because they were already not using their digital controls. So, if their digital controls go south with the experiment, why would they care. They already decided they were useless (subject to burn up or not tight enough temp control) and got a PID). The suggestions to me of "you try it and see what happens" were really helpful. Thank you all for the same. But to state the obvious, I want to keep and use my digital controls. If the experiment goes south, then I lose a piece of equipment I want to keep and that I value. Also, when Renoman pointed out the puck motor and lights are relevant, I then see no reason for someone to experiment with their digital controls if they are still using the puck advance motor. Ergo my shift in topic to figuring out what the puck motor and lights use in terms of electricity.
Please stay on topic and leave my personality out of this thread.
We are on the cusp of a great discovery here--- the truth will be told. One day we will all say, "One does not need a PID when upgrading a digital model smoker to keep the unit from failing. But a PID is necessary to smoke properly with tight temperature control."
For those truly interested in this issue, stay focused. Ignore the comments about my personality. Although probably true, they are off topic and irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Quote from: dcw1 on January 04, 2014, 07:42:21 AM
TedEbear: I always wondered about the round thing in the back of the smoker. Thx.
Renoman and TedEbear: What the heck is a 25A SSR?
750 watts/120 volts = 6.25 amps (main upgraded element)
125 watts/120 volts = 1.04 amps (puck heater)
So that is about 7.29 amps for the upgraded main and puck heaters.
But how much juice (for lack of a better term) do you think the puck feeder motor and the digital lights would use? I can't imagine that the puck feeder motor and the digital display would account for an additional 2.71 amps and push this over the 10 amp fuse level. But I really don't know.
I will have these answers for you later this morning. Doing some testing in my shop. SSR = solid state relay
Dcw do you have an amp meter? You could crank your temp as high as it will go turn on the sg and cycle the puck advance while monitoring with an amprobe to get an idea what those parts pull amp wise and give you an idea what kind of current it is using in a normal smoke. I wont be home today but I can check it out tommorow if I get my generator put back together (PID project in the works).
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 2
From Smoking Meat Forum post of dcw1 that a lot of us are members of as well as Bradley forums:
There is nothing "dead" about this horse. If so, what's the answer to: can you install a 750-watt element in a digital smoker and still use the digital controls without using a PID? Why or why not.
As stated in the other threads, the idea a digital smoker "is only designed for 500-watts" is a useless answer and more than likely just plain wrong. People smarter than me have calculated the amps of a higher wattage element and because the digital smoker has a 10-amp fuse, It should be ok. But, as my last post said, one needs to also make sure all components are calculated.
Honestly, that other thread shows there are a bunch of loudmouth know-it-alls who will swear you need a PID but can't tell you why. They just don't want to admit they bought a PID needlessly. Does a PID help with temperature control? Sure it does. Is it actually NEEDED because your original digital controls will burn up? Highly doubtful. But it is easy to say, "those controls are designed for 500 watts and if you use a lager element, you'll burn your house down."
If you don't like the topic, stop reading.
Here are the readings of the Bradley digital taken with my Kill A Watt meter. Sorry about the sideways pics but Photobucket is a pain sometimes.
Parasitic draw with everything turned off and The Bradley plugged in. 0.03amps
(http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/renoman69/Parasitic_zps563bc922.jpg) (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/renoman69/media/Parasitic_zps563bc922.jpg.html)
Auber PID single probe turned on by itself not hooked up to the Bradley 0.01 amps
(http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/renoman69/Auber_zpsa72427a7.jpg) (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/renoman69/media/Auber_zpsa72427a7.jpg.html)
Smoke generator only 1.05 amps
(http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/renoman69/SGonly_zps466b9016.jpg) (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/renoman69/media/SGonly_zps466b9016.jpg.html)
Smoke generator with puck advancing 1.08 amps
(http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/renoman69/SGandpuckadvance_zps4cadee32.jpg) (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/renoman69/media/SGandpuckadvance_zps4cadee32.jpg.html)
Oven only 3.98 amps
(http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/renoman69/Ovenonly_zpsb667a573.jpg) (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/renoman69/media/Ovenonly_zpsb667a573.jpg.html)
Smoke generator and oven on 4.92 amps
(http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss74/renoman69/SGandOven_zpse622559a.jpg) (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/renoman69/media/SGandOven_zpse622559a.jpg.html)
......so with an additional 500 watt element you would be drawing almost exactly 9 AMPS.
Settled! Thanks for all the great advice and not so great comments about my personality. :)
This was a very technical question and those much smarter than me have provided a factual answer. Bravo. Took a while with all the clutter about my personality but an answer was found.
Some of you will surely be smoking some crow today. Me, I have some ribs on right now. :)
I am glad you finally got the answer you were looking for. I am sorry that you must endure people that are put off by your personality. I will pray that you find a way of improving your personality. It really is easy when you are considerate of others.
Deep breath time. Happy smoking all.
Quote from: dcw1 on January 04, 2014, 07:42:21 AMRenoman and TedEbear: What the heck is a 25A SSR?
This:
(http://www.auberins.com/images/RS1A40.jpg)
The high amp current for the heating elements goes through this instead of the PID controller or the stock Bradley electronics. The PID just toggles the SSR on and off to maintain the temp setpoint. That's not necessarily how everyone else has theirs wired, just the way it is on mine.
Well now there you go, I guess my prayers for you have been answered. Now go out there and get yourself that extra element and show us all just how that sucker works. I am guessing you would be doing more testing on this project of yours and posting the results? Knowing that you only have a 1% doorway before it blows the fuse has me wondering if thats enough to keep you smoking.
Quote from: devo on January 04, 2014, 11:04:06 AM
Well now there you go, I guess my prayers for you have been answered. Now go out there and get yourself that extra element and show us all just how that sucker works. I am guessing you would be doing more testing on this project of yours and posting the results? Knowing that you only have a 1% doorway before it blows the fuse has me wondering if thats enough to keep you smoking.
It's actually a 10% doorway on 1000 watts. That's why I think 750 watts would work just fine.
Well like I said go out and buy that element and put your new found knowledge to good use. Test it and prove it. Testing is the only way you can be sure it will do what you want. I thought it was brought up that the standard is 80% doorway to be safe?
To everyone reading this thread, I think you must take what I post with a grain of salt. Yes, I am to the point and I can be abrasive and sarcastic. But, the banter and occasional good-natured insult make for interesting reading.
So, I will see about getting the new element in. My brother-in-law will likely assist as he has made many modifications to his unit. So it may be a while. Maybe someone will do it as well and post results.
Now, I have to think about my next thread and start another firestorm. I've heard those that smoke beef have lower IQs. Thoughts? ;D
Don't forget I am looking for a 750 watt element.
10-4.
Quote from: dcw1 on January 04, 2014, 12:10:01 PM
I've heard those that smoke beef have lower IQs. Thoughts? ;D
;D Now that is what I call good natured insult! ;)
You know it could have some merit - there are some on here that might claim it does not take a high IQ to smoke beef. ;D
So this thread is finished? We can draw it to a close?
Please, please please let it be over.