BRADLEY SMOKER | "Taste the Great Outdoors"

Consumables and Accessories => Accessories => Topic started by: Mr Walleye on January 15, 2007, 02:13:23 PM

Title: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on January 15, 2007, 02:13:23 PM
I'm finally getting things together to build a PID. I will be putting it in a project box because I have a DBS. This way I can use the current display strictly for the smoke generator. It also frees me up to cold smoke using a separate box for the generator (next project).

Ok, here is what I ordered from Auber
1/16 DIN PID (for SSR Output) Model SYL-2352
25A SSR Model RS1A40D25

Here is what I ordered from Omega
Round face Mini Panel Jack Model RMJ-K-R
T/C Assembly W/Trans Joint Model TJ96-CASS-316U-3-SB-SMPW-M

I ordered the TC wire a little long so I can steal a little to wire the panel Jack. I plan on wiring it exactly as the write up by Rob on Olds recipe site here:
http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315

I plan on using 14 ga stranded wire for the project.

Because I'm putting it in a project box and supplying separate AC to it I want to fuse it. I've done allot of reading and I'm having trouble figuring out where the fuse should go. Here is the link to the wiring diagram I am going to follow.
http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/pid/diagram.jpg

Should the fuse be in the wire between the SSR terminal labelled T1 and the power cord going to the box element?

I assume an 8 amp fuse would be good?

Is a heat sink necessary?

Do you see any other errors in my plan?

I still haven't came up with a project box but I will find something.

Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on January 15, 2007, 05:20:58 PM
Mr. Walleye,

Best practice is to take the hot immediately to a fuse, then off the fuse to your terminal strip.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on January 15, 2007, 05:47:03 PM
Thanks for the response A&S

So, (help me here I'm electrically challenged) based on the wiring diagram above, the power is coming in from the the right side labelled "Power Cord Male End to Generator". Because I'm supplying separate AC this is where my power comes in. Of these wires am I correct that the black wire is the "hot" wire?

Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on January 15, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
Black is hot.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on January 15, 2007, 06:04:17 PM
A&S

Do you feel an 8 amp fuse would be good/bad?

do you feel a heat sink on the SSR is necessary?

Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on January 15, 2007, 06:23:36 PM
8 amp sounds right (assuming the DBS has the same element as the Original). My OBS has a 10 amp fuse, so you figure some juice for the generator element, and the balance for the big guy.

I have no experience with the SSR mentioned and that setup. I've built my own PID from "scratch" using a triac for power control with a very modest heat sink and modest temperature rise. If you are putting all this in a metal box, I would imagine screwing the SSR to the box would be adequate. Rule of thumb for electronics is that if you cannot keep your thumb on it, it is too hot.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on January 15, 2007, 06:45:32 PM
I'm sure the element would be the same in both the DBS & OBS. The fuse in the generator on the DBS is a 10 amp so without the generator running through it the 8 amp should be good. Thanks for the tip on determining how much is too much heat buildup.

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: owrstrich on January 20, 2007, 02:31:11 PM
10amp... humm... i cant read the fuse... my fuse just blew... man was it hot... i could have lit off a spleef... now onto puke boys... manny... moe... and jack...

you gotta eat...

owrstrich
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 11:47:41 AM
I finally got all the parts for this project and tackled it last night. I will eventually post some pics of it but right now I first need to get it running.

The problem - I wired everything as indicated in the wiring diagram listed in my first post with the exception of adding a fuse in the hot wire (black) coming in from the AC outlet as per Arcs recomendation. I plugged the unit in and it displayed the actual temp on the top display and the target temp on the bottom display. I held the TC in my fingers and could see the top display increase so everything appeared to be working. I unplugged the PID. Next, I plugged the output power cord from the PID into the element in the tower, then plugged the PID back into the AC. Next I waited..... and waited    and waited but still no heat from the element. I unplugged everything, took it all apart and rechecked my wiring and it all is correct. Put it all back togetther and nothing. I also checked all the factory settings to make sure they were the same as the PID manual and they are.

Am I missing something here?

Are there any initial setting required to make it run that I'm not aware of?

Any help would be greatly apreciated.

Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: smokerman on February 01, 2007, 01:35:43 PM
You also have to have the little cable from the  smoke gen. to the back of the unit pluged in. I think that is the temp sensor.  Mine had to be plugged in for the element to start heating when using the PID.

Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 04:16:17 PM
Hi Smokerman

I have the temp sensor plugged in. I am supplying power straight from AC to the PID, then directly to the heating element in the tower. I know you can plug the heating unit directly into an AC outlet (with the proper cord) and the heating element will be running wide open. So based on this my plan was to run separate power to the smoke generator and a separate power to the main heating element.

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: dick621 on February 01, 2007, 05:04:00 PM
Mr Walleye,  If Im reading right it sounds like you have the smoke generator plugged into the PID.   I think the main heater in the smoker is the one to plug into the PID>.  I may have misread tho.
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: dick621 on February 01, 2007, 05:06:40 PM
going back and re reading I was right.  By that I mean I had missread. sorry.
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 01, 2007, 06:00:22 PM
Mr. Walleye,

Debugging at a distance is a bit tough, but my train of thought...

1. Sounds like power and TC connections to PID are okay, so that leaves the following questions:
a. setpoint is higher than current temp, thus calling for power?
b. the connection between the PID and SSR has the correct polarity?
c. if the PID is energizing the SSR, the LED on the SSR should be on?
d. I am out of ideas, so I'm getting a drink.....   :D

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 06:27:21 PM
Hi Arcs

"1. Sounds like power and TC connections to PID are okay, so that leaves the following questions:"
I agree

"a. setpoint is higher than current temp, thus calling for power?"
Yes, I have the setpoint at 200 and the TC reads room temp.

"b. the connection between the PID and SSR has the correct polarity?"
I've checked the wiring several times and it is wired exactly as the diagram indicates.

"c. if the PID is energizing the SSR, the LED on the SSR should be on?"
Yup, the LED on the SSR is on.

"d. I am out of ideas, so I'm getting a drink..."
I couldn't agree more with you Arcs!  ;D

Mike

Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 01, 2007, 06:42:20 PM
Mr. Walleye,

Ah, sounds like you are very close! If the SSR is energized (assuming it is good), then power should be flowing to the outlet and your heating element.

So, the problem could be:
1. neutral not carried through (unlikely)
2. hot and load connection on the SSR interchanged (should not matter, but what the heck).
3. some aspect of the DBS power connection that is making life hard (don't have a DBS, so don't know)
4. having another drink.......   8)

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 07:12:46 PM
Arcs

1. neutral not carried through (unlikely)
Checked and double checked, definitely carried through.

2. hot and load connection on the SSR interchanged (should not matter, but what the heck).
Not sure about this except they are wired as in the diagram.

3. some aspect of the DBS power connection that is making life hard (don't have a DBS, so don't know)
Ther is nothing on the DBS to stop you from sending AC directly to the box. When I had the fuse holder burn up, I had a load of jerky in. What I did was take the main power cord out of the generaor and plug directly into the tower. This gave me full power and no control but allowwed me to finish of the jerky by plugging and unplugging it.

4. having another drink.......
Me Too!  ;D

I wonder if it would have anything to do with any of the settings? I don't know enough about them. I realize that in addition to turning the power on and of they also decide how much power to apply.

Mike   
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 01, 2007, 07:26:07 PM
Mr. Walleye,

You have been very helpful tonight; all this thinking and replying has gotten me three drinks...   :o

Kind of troubles me that the SSR light is on, but no power to the heater. Possible to plug a lamp into your setup and "see" if juice is being switched by the SSR? Assuming no juice to your light, either the SSR is bad, there is a bad connection in terms of getting 120 volts to the SSR, or a bad connection getting it from the SSR to your outlet. I like to use light bulbs if one does not have a voltmeter handy.

Wish I was closer, and I'd bring some Jack with me to help the debugging. Since I am not closer, the Jack is staying with me and I am having number four.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 07:42:12 PM
Arcs

Glad to help ya out!  ;D  ;D  ;D

I do have a multi gauge and I did check voltage at the L1 connector on the SSR has 120 volts. What I didn't check was the T1 connector. If I'm correct the T1 connector should also have 120 volts providing the PID is requesting more heat. Does this sound correct if so I'll run out to the garage and check it? Again (I'm electrically challenged) The way I've been using the volt meter is touching the red lead to L1 or T1 connector on the SSR while touching the black lead to the neutral, is this correct?

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 08:02:34 PM
I ran out and checked L1 has 120 on it and T1 varies between .0 to .4 volts. Clearly that is the reason it's not getting the element hot. But what would the problem be? Bad SSR or PID?

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 01, 2007, 08:06:14 PM
Mr. Walleye,

Correct. If the SSR is closing in, you should have 120 volts on the output side of the relay (T1). If so, then you should be able to "follow" the 120 volts to your output connector. Black to neutral (or ground) is correct, using your red lead to measure voltage.

Since you have 120 volts at L1, a quick check would be to short out the SSR (jumper from L1 to T1). That will take the relay out of the equation, and verify the balance of the wiring. That will not harm the relay in any way.

Since you should not drink and measure voltage at the same time, I will have that drink for you, and will look forward to your posts in the morning.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 08:09:19 PM
Thanks Arcs.... Make sure you enjoy that drink too!  ;D

I will try jumping it accross and see what happens.

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 01, 2007, 08:17:23 PM
Mr. Walleye,

Sorry, typing & drinking during your reply.

1. The SSR spec is that to turn on, you should have a minimum of 4.2 volts across A1 and A2. (this would be a D.C. voltage)
2. The off voltage is < 1.5 volts.
3. Setting the setpoint to less than the current temp should drive the LED off; that would verify the PID is okay.

Sounds like a SSR problem at this point.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 08:30:24 PM
Thanks Arcs

I just got back in from jumping across T1 and L1 and the element gets red hot.

I will check the A1/A2 DC volts when the PID is calling for heat and when it's not. I will also see if the LED on the SSR goes out when the PID isn't calling for heat.

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 01, 2007, 08:44:15 PM
I just checked and the DC volts across A1/A2 when the PID is calling for heat is 13.25 volts and the SSR LED is on.

When the PID is not calling for heat the DC voltage is 0 and the SSR LED is out.

So... does this mean the SSR is faulty?

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 02, 2007, 10:22:15 AM
Just for the heck of it I sent Suyi from Auber Instruments an email this morning with a link to this thread to see what his thoughts were. Wow! He phoned me in a couple of minutes of the email, went through the tests that I've done and felt it is a faulty SSR and is shipping a new one out today.

Holy Crap... You gotta love excellent, prompt customer service! I would highly recommend Auber Instruments to anybody contemplating this project in a heartbeat.

Arcs & Sparks - I also want to thank you for taking the time to assist me with this. It's people like you that make this forum the wealth of information and assistance that everyone enjoys.

I will keep you posted with how I make out once I've received the new SSR. I will also post a picture of the finished product and my "unique & creative" project box.

Thanks again
Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Wildcat on February 02, 2007, 02:05:44 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 02, 2007, 05:32:52 PM
Mr. Walleye,

Looking forward to your report when the new SSR gets installed.

Glad to help; just trying to contribute a fraction back of what I have learned from others here. Have a long way to go.....

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: West Coast Kansan on February 02, 2007, 07:54:46 PM
Looking forward to these results Mr. Walleye. Will soon know how a PID works on a DBS. Will be interesting also to track temps with display and independent. Sure glad you post.
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: nodak on February 04, 2007, 07:36:26 AM
Back to your fuse question, I not only fused my power coming in right away, but also put a 1 amp slow blow fuse to protect the PID as the directions recommend w/ the PID.  Not sure if anyone else has done this.
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 04, 2007, 12:19:33 PM
Hi Nodak

No I didn't do that. I thought from the other threads I read on it that the fused power source coming in would protect the PID. I did read the recommendation in the instructons with the PID though.

Anybody else? Is the second fuse required strictly to protect the PID?

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 04, 2007, 01:41:46 PM
Fusing is all about avoiding flames and other bad things.

A fuse will go when there is a fault, so already something not right has happened. A question of Mr. Walleye's setup would be along the lines of: if the PID fails and is not separately fused, will it do really bad things because the up-stream fuse will not protect the entire system? Since the apparent delta is from 1 amp (PID alone) to 10 amps (whole system), one can ask the odds the PID faults, draws five amps or so, doesn't challenge the fuse, and spends enough time sucking 600 watts to catch fire? This is why your vehicle has so many fuses (plus makes it easier to isolate power among devices).

Certainly you can put another black antenna on that nice white tube...   :D

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 04, 2007, 01:49:08 PM
Certainly you can put another black antenna on the that nice white tube...   :D

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Hi Arcs
So, if for an example I was going to add an in-line 1 amp fuse (inside the nice white tube) what wire would I put it in based on the wiring diagram?

Would it the wire comming off of #10 on the PID?

Just a guess....
Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 04, 2007, 05:11:14 PM
It would be in the hot feed to the PID, which according to your diagram I believe is #9. #10 looks like the neutral.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 04, 2007, 05:19:32 PM
Yup, you're right the #10 is the neutral

Thanks Arcs

I notice that not many, if any, actually fuse the ID in this fashion.
Any idea why? Is it that low of risk that it really doesn't need protection?

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on February 04, 2007, 06:10:51 PM
The PID itself in this case is not really managing much power (in the sense of power flowing through it). The power control features are the SSR, heating element, and associated wiring. Those you worry about. Also, if the PID is UL approved, there are a number of standards it must adhere to that minimze the possibility of it burning up.

My home grown PID is UL rated; I used Unlimited Liquor in it's construction.  :D :D :D

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 04, 2007, 06:17:24 PM
My home grown PID is UL rated; I used Unlimited Liquor in it's construction.  :D :D :D

Priceless!
 ;D  ;D  ;D

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: OriginalBitman on February 17, 2013, 09:30:42 PM
I know this is an old thread but I loved the discussion and the info was so helpful I just had to register and post a than you!
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: SmokinSignals on February 17, 2013, 10:04:32 PM
Mr. Walleye, Did this help with the DBS holding temps?  I saw a thread about doing this sort of thing to the OBS but not the DBS until now.  I would like to do this also if it worked, thanks for a reply.
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 18, 2013, 08:09:28 AM
I know this is an old thread but I loved the discussion and the info was so helpful I just had to register and post a than you!

Hi OriginalBitman and welcome to the forum.

That's what makes this place so great. All the information that is freely shared is priceless.  ;)

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 18, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Mr. Walleye, Did this help with the DBS holding temps?  I saw a thread about doing this sort of thing to the OBS but not the DBS until now.  I would like to do this also if it worked, thanks for a reply.

Hi SmokinSignals

There's no question a PID will hold temps much more accurate, usually within a degree or two on either side on your target. You can get plug & play PIDs from Auber now but at the time of this thread they weren't available.

There are some advantages to building your own such as it being less expensive and technically it can handle more wattage depending on the SSR you choose. Either way, build your own or buying a plug & play, it's certainly not a problem controlling a DBS with a PID.

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: SmokinSignals on February 18, 2013, 05:11:58 PM
Thanks Mike,
Did you happen to place a toggle switch to bypass the OEM setup so you could swap back if needed?  I ordered all the listed stuff today from auber and picked up the extras from radioshack to build my own.  I was going to look for an area to pull a leg off to bypass the system and place the PID in the loop.  Also, I noticed you had alot of input on the fan mod, if you don`t mind me inquiring, where did you pull the power for the fan from?  Thanks again.
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 18, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
Thanks Mike,
Did you happen to place a toggle switch to bypass the OEM setup so you could swap back if needed?  I ordered all the listed stuff today from auber and picked up the extras from radioshack to build my own.  I was going to look for an area to pull a leg off to bypass the system and place the PID in the loop.  Also, I noticed you had alot of input on the fan mod, if you don`t mind me inquiring, where did you pull the power for the fan from?  Thanks again.

SmokinSignals

If you are referring to the toggle switch for the second element, no, I didn't put the toggle switch in but I would probably do it. The switch itself isn't worth much and it does give the option of being operational if you ever have a problem with the PID or if you simply want to use just one element. If you are referring to a toggle switch to switch between the PID controller and the DBS controller it really isn't needed. You would simply re-plug everything back in as you do now. The PID is really a stand along device plugged directly into a power outlet and the tower heating element is plugged into the PID instead of the smoke generator.

Basically what I did was run both the PID and the circulation fan off a heavy duty power bar. That way all I had to do was flip the switch on the power bar and everything was running.

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: SmokinSignals on February 18, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Thanks for the heads up.  So I am assuming that the "Oven" part of the DBS is not turned on from the DBS faceplate with the PID in place.  The Oven is powered on and controlled by the PID solely.  Then you can swap everything back to original and use the DBS interface if you desire.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: Mr Walleye on February 19, 2013, 12:00:53 PM
Thanks for the heads up.  So I am assuming that the "Oven" part of the DBS is not turned on from the DBS faceplate with the PID in place.  The Oven is powered on and controlled by the PID solely.  Then you can swap everything back to original and use the DBS interface if you desire.  Is that correct?

Your right on the money SmokinSignals!  ;)

You will still have to have the small sensor wire plugged into the cabinet to make the Smoke Generator function.

Mike
Title: Re: PID Question
Post by: SmokinSignals on February 19, 2013, 12:54:14 PM
Thanks brother,
Keep your line tight!