BRADLEY SMOKER | "Taste the Great Outdoors"

Smoking Techniques => Hot Smoking and Barbecuing => Topic started by: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 01:13:11 PM

Title: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 01:13:11 PM
Hi, I just got my Bradley smoker yesterday and tried it out twice. So far, I have been disappointed with the results. It seems there is a lot of moisture inside the cabient. I have been smoking venison sausage which had been dried before putting into the smoker, then I allowed the smoker to come to 150 degrees for 45 minutes then applied smoke. I opened the door after two hours smoking to rearrange the trays for a more even smoking and water puddled up coming out the door. Is this from the water bowl that catches the burned bisquettes? Do you have to put water in the bowl? I have had much better luck with my old homemade smoker than this expensive one. I hope I can resolve what I am doing wrong. If anyone has any ideas I would really appreciate it. When I made my first test run yesterday, I did not rearrange the sausages during the run. The bottom rack turned brown only on the bottom of the sausage, the top rack did not even turn color after 3-1/2 hours in the smoke. Yesterday I opened the damper 1/2 way, today it's open the whole way. It's about 25 degrees outside, the smoker is on a deck with one side closed in so the wind will not blow on the smoker. I'm open for any tips, I plan to smoke sausages, cheeses, pepperoni sticks poultry and salmon. Many of the recipies look tasty and I'm sue I'll be trying some of them also. Thanks in advance, Greg.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: acords on December 02, 2007, 01:19:36 PM
you need to have water in the bowl to extinguish the pucks.  Make sure you have a positive flow out the vent on top, and that should help vent moisture.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 01:21:22 PM
The first run yesterday, it was 1/2 open, today it was fully open.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: acords on December 02, 2007, 01:29:19 PM
How is it for you today?
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 01:37:59 PM
Still a lot of moisture and the bottom sausages seem to get most of the smoke, thats why I opened the door after two hours to rearrange the meat. Water still puddled out the door and the sausages were visably wet.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 02, 2007, 01:42:09 PM
I don't have any ideas as to what can be causing that much moisture, when you only have sausage. You had your vent open far enough. The water bowl will not produce that much. Do you happen to know the relative humidity or the dew point when you were smoking? If the relative humidity was high and the dew point close to the ambient temperature that may prevent the moisture from escaping the cabinet on cold days, but that is a guess. A good indication of high relative humidity or dew point is a lot of moisture build up on top of the smoker by the vent. If you have the original raise the front end up about 1/4", if water does build up that will prevent the moisture from possibly seeping into the area where the electrical circuit is locates.

With sausage you don't have to use water in the water bowl, but you may get a bitter tastes on your sausage, because the water is to extinguish the pucks preventing the bisquettes from burning too long an producing resins. For long smoke, especially meat that contain a fair amount of fat, you need to keep water in the bowl.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Wildcat on December 02, 2007, 01:42:56 PM
This is a little confusing to me.  I do not even have a problem with chicken.  Is your V pan put in properly?  It should be V and not ^.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 01:53:44 PM
Yes the V pan in  installed correctly. I did not see much, if any moisture around the vent. I just now went out and removed the sausages and there was water pooled at the door again. I did notice that all the water was gone from the pan. I ran the smoker for four hours today. I was not real pleased with the way the sausage looks either, some are very dark while others are very very light in color.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Wildcat on December 02, 2007, 01:58:03 PM
Other than what HS mentioned I have no further guesses.  I know with some things you want to be sure the meat does not touch the sides of the cabinet or you will have a puddle.  I have not done sausage, but have never had the type problem you are describing with anything else.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 02, 2007, 02:05:50 PM
When I smoke sausage I start with a bowl around 3/4 full. I use about the same temperatures you do and I have plenty of water in the bowl after 4 hours. I generally don't have to add or change the water during the entire smoking/cooking times.

What are you using to monitor the cabinet temperature. Are you using a thermometer probe, to check the accuracy of the interior temperature. The door thermometer is not that accurate, mainly because of it's location. Even if you have the digital, you may still want to use a probe.

Other then that, it's a mystery to me as to why there is such a moisture build up.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on December 02, 2007, 02:10:17 PM
pensrock,

This does not sound right. I have done sausages in the BS without any moisture issues, and it would be surprising that you would have water puddling unless you have a cold surface that is condensing out moisture. 150 sounds a bit low for sausage (Rytek recommends 160-165 to an internal temp of 152). I lay the sausages flat on the racks, and rotate top to bottom & front to back after about half way.

Also, why is the pan running out of water? I've never had it go dry over four hours.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Mr Walleye on December 02, 2007, 02:11:34 PM
I can't understand it either Greg.

I have never done sausage but plan too in the future. I do jerky on a regular basis, including ground jerky. I usually do 10 lbs at a time and I mix in a cup or two of water to make the meat run through the jerky gun better. I will then use 12 racks in my DBS and although there is a lot of jerky in there I don't get any pooling of water.

How big of a load are you doing?

Hopefully StickBowCrafter see this and comment. He does a fair bit of sausage and may have some thoughts.

I'm sure you will get things fine tuned with everybody's help.

Mike
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
I though it was odd that all the water was gone from the bowl. I only filled it halfway. There is no door thermometer, I have a digital unit. I wonder if the heating element is causing the water to boil and cause steam? How would I put another thermometer inside the unit? I had about twenty pounds of meat in the smoker.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Mr Walleye on December 02, 2007, 02:23:56 PM
Most around here us a Maverick ET73. It is a dual probe thermometer that monitors your tower temp and the internal meat temp. It also has a remote that you can use to monitor the temp from a distance. It also has alarms. It really is a must have.

Mike
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 02:30:38 PM
I just looked at the temp probe you suggested on EBAY. It is about $45.00 plus shipping. How do you run the wires inside the smoker? I guess you could just let the door close on them. Also assuming you are using all four racks where would you suggest putting the probe?
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 02, 2007, 02:36:37 PM
Water will evaporate at all temperatures, so it doesn't have to get to the boiling point. Even half full, after four hours there should have been plenty of water in the bowl. When I am smoking/cooking 200°F - 210°F, my bowl is still at least 1/4 full after four hours, and I don't have the water build up in the cabinet you are describing. There are plenty of experienced members on the board, so I'm sure after some trouble shooting you will get this resolved.

Most use the Maverick ET-73 which will monitor the food and cabinet temperature, and when necessary you can adjust your temperature. I don't know what probe you are looking at, if you do a search you can find a better price. Overstock.com has a good deal on the Maverick ET-7, and the ET-73 is often sold for less then $45. I just stick my probes through the top vent and then position the probes. You can also run the wires through the door
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on December 02, 2007, 02:36:49 PM
Quote from: pensrock on December 02, 2007, 02:16:08 PM
I though it was odd that all the water was gone from the bowl. I only filled it halfway.

That has to be the source of your water puddle. Hard to believe with the bowl centered in the smoker that you could put enough heat into to dry it out over a few hours.

Regarding the ET-73, many run the wires through the vent.

Arcs_n_Sparks
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Tiny Tim on December 02, 2007, 02:40:03 PM
Gotta be something spilling that water.  When you're done using the BS for the day, take your bowl inside and do a leak test on it to see if your bowl may have a leak in the bottom.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Smoking Duck on December 02, 2007, 05:39:03 PM
Quote from: Tiny Tim on December 02, 2007, 02:40:03 PM
Gotta be something spilling that water.  When you're done using the BS for the day, take your bowl inside and do a leak test on it to see if your bowl may have a leak in the bottom.

My thoughts exactly.  There may be a leak in the bowl. 
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Gizmo on December 02, 2007, 08:41:20 PM
I have yet to do sausage and also not in excessive cold temperature so these are just a few guesses from the posts I have read here. 

You mentioned the temperature outside is 25 deg.  I would believe that to maintain the temperature of the box at the desired temperature (I think you listed 150 deg) you are trying to achieve, your heating element is running higher than what it normaly would just to keep up the internal temperature.  This would account for the browning at the bottom and lack of color at the top as is the evaporation of the water in the bowl (providing it is not leaking).  The large temperature difference between the inside and outside of the box could be causing the excessive condensation .

Would definatly like to hear what your final analysis is.  Please keep us posted.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: West Coast Kansan on December 02, 2007, 08:43:19 PM
This is wild. I am with TT, Something is spilling the water.  or the bowl has a whole in it... if he lived next door to car 54 and those mexican dog and cat acts maybe.   :-\

No clue   ??? Not condensation if the water is leaving the bowl too.

Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Stickbowcrafter on December 02, 2007, 10:55:47 PM
This is very interesting to say the least. I don't mean to sound condescending but your comment about having water in the bowl and no mention of seasoning the unit first makes me wonder if you read the instructions throughly and followed them. I know, we all hate instructions but there are some pretty specific things you have to do with these smokers. Not syaing a lack of them has caused your problem, but I'd go back and start from the beginning, reading the instructions and seasoning the unit properly.

I've run a few hundred pounds of sausage through my Bradley this year and I have had no problems whatsoever. The only factor I can see causing this, besides a leaky bowl, is the outside weather like mentioned before. I smoked some kielbasa over night the other day, night temp was around 30 degrees, and I had a few small puddles of water on top of my unit on the exterior around the vent from the steam condensing. I've noticed this to be normal in colder temperatures but have never had any puddling inside the cabinet.

I've read over your post a few times and I'm going to read it again to see if I missed some other clue. Very strange.

-Brian
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Stickbowcrafter on December 02, 2007, 11:00:42 PM
Forgot to mention you can get the Maverick ET-7 for $36.99 at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Remote-check-7-Wireless-Thermometer-probes/dp/B00004SZ10/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1196664503&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Remote-check-7-Wireless-Thermometer-probes/dp/B00004SZ10/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1196664503&sr=8-1)

-Brian
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 03, 2007, 02:23:35 AM
The colder weather alone would not cause this problem. I have smoke poultry with skin in temperatures in the low 20's and never had this problem Like Brian states, moisture will pool on the top of the smoker around the vent, occasionally dripping back down, but not in the amount that is being described. Just enough to discolor the food below.

If there was a leak in the pan, then the water would flow into the bottom tray, so there should be some signs.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: kiyotei on December 03, 2007, 07:56:16 AM
I had a similar problem and the cause for me was really weird.  Ok one, do you have the metal pan under the bowl?  Ok so my water problem came about because I had wrapped the pan (not bowl) in foil.  Normally I use extra large foil sheets so I would only need one piece and no liquid would leak through the foil into the metal pan.  I was covering it in foil so I wouldn't have to clean it.  anyhow I ran out of the extra large foil and had to use normal foil.  I used two pieces of foil to wrap the pan.  This allowed the water that I spilled into the pan while filling the bowl to get under the foil.  I have no idea why but while smoking the water would flow up under the foil and out of the pan.  I know this sounds bizzare but this happened several times.  I would open the door while smoking and water would run out.  When I got rid of the foil everything was fine.  Also when I used one large piece of foil I never had leaking.  I stopped using foil on the pan and have not had any problems since.  One other thought, do you place the bowl directly under the middle round hole in the V drip pan to catch fat and moisture that comes out of the meat and drips into the V pan.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 03, 2007, 12:59:37 PM
I just got home from work and am happy to see so many trying to help me solve this problem, Thanks to all. I did read my manual very closely and did season the unit per the instructions. Actually I did the seasoning twice to make sure no odd smells from the construction of the unit would ruin any product I put inside. The bowl is not leaking, it would be caught in the tray if it had, I also checked it in the sink to make double sure. There is never any water in the tray under the bowl. I really am thinking its evaporating and condensing on the door and also on my sausages. I have seen moisture on the top of the sausages when I opened the door to rearange the trays. I'll try to take a few pictures to show how the unit is assembled and where I have been finding water pooling. I did not put any foil on the drip tray, the manual said not to use foil inside the smoker. Although I do not see what it would hurt. I'll go get my digital camera and try to get a few pics, I'm not sure how to post them though.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 03, 2007, 01:25:55 PM
Quote from: kiyotei on December 03, 2007, 07:56:16 AM
I had a similar problem and the cause for me was really weird.  Ok one, do you have the metal pan under the bowl?  Ok so my water problem came about because I had wrapped the pan (not bowl) in foil.  Normally I use extra large foil sheets so I would only need one piece and no liquid would leak through the foil into the metal pan.  I was covering it in foil so I wouldn't have to clean it.  anyhow I ran out of the extra large foil and had to use normal foil.  I used two pieces of foil to wrap the pan.  This allowed the water that I spilled into the pan while filling the bowl to get under the foil.  I have no idea why but while smoking the water would flow up under the foil and out of the pan.  I know this sounds bizzare but this happened several times.  ......

Water expands as it heats up. With such a limited area to expand in, the water probably expanded up the sides between the bowl and foil and flowed out over the top of the bowl.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 03, 2007, 01:43:25 PM
Does anyone know/where how to post images? I took a few pics and marked them up to show what I have been seeing. But do not know how to post them. I can email them if somebodys is interested in seeing them. When I click on the 'insert image' button nothing seems to happen. I'll try to find somewhere on the net to post the pics then post the link if possible.

Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 03, 2007, 01:56:57 PM
Pics located on flickr.com the links are below.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/15057053@N05/2085100596/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/15057053@N05/2085100380/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/15057053@N05/2084316265/

You may need to select 'all sizes' the large or origional size to read the comments I made on each pic.
Hope this is useful.
Thanks again, Greg.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: West Coast Kansan on December 03, 2007, 07:45:27 PM
hummm,  without re reading this thread i think you said the vent was full open.  seeing the condensation in the photo showing the top of the unit some more droplets are visible right at the vent opening.

The only other thing I can think of that would stop the air flow through the unit is if you are hanging your cover on the generator in such a way that it is blocking the louvers in the smoke generator.  the passage of air through the generator needs to be present as well as the vent on the top of the unit open.

have you ever noticed any smoke leaking out around the seam between the smoke generator and the side of your tower?

Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: kiyotei on December 03, 2007, 09:02:51 PM
how about posting a pic of what is above the smoker showing the outside area of the vent.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Gizmo on December 03, 2007, 10:11:20 PM
Noticed you have the digital.  What was your oven temp setting?
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 04, 2007, 01:29:53 AM
I'll take a pic of the vent when I get home from work tonight. It was wide open during this last run and the temp was set to 150 degrees F. Yes I had seen smoke coming out of the area between the generator and the smoker, only briefly, I seen it then it was gone. I thought it was odd that there was smoke coming out there, it happened after rearranging the product and closing the door. I even thought that maybe there should have some kind of gasket there to prevent the smoke from coming out, but it stopped coming out after a few seconds so I never thought anymore about it. The cover is not on the unit, I have not even opened the cover yet. There is at least four feet of clear space the whole way around the unit.
Thanks, Greg.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 04, 2007, 01:41:55 AM
When you said there was moisture build up on your sausage, was it just on the side you see the pooling, or is the moisture build up on all the sausage?

Looking at the pictures that does look like condensation. If the vent is not blocked my thought is your seal on the top may not be tight enough or you door may be not aligned properly. Have you notice any smoke escaping from the door seal in that area? If heat is escaping from the door seal, when it comes in contact with the cold air (24°F ambient temperature) condensation will build where there is not a proper seal and drip down the inside of the door and pool at the bottom. Or the condensation could be from frequently opening the door and checking on the sausage.

Just one other thought. There are vents on the side of the generator that helps provide a draft. Make sure that those vents are not blocked.

I'm still at a lost for why your bowl is drying out so fast.

I noticed you posted while I was writing this. It may be your camera angle, but is your smoker level? From the pictures it seem the right half is lower then the left. That seems to be the area of the pooling. If it is not level, you should level it.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Smoking Duck on December 04, 2007, 06:24:28 AM
Pen,
I noticed that when I opened my door during the smoke that the smoke would come out between the unit and the generator as well.  As soon as I closed the door, that stopped.  Habs might be on to something.  I am certainly no expert....could it be that there is way too much moisture in your sausage when put into the smoker?  Not sure if that could be a cause or not to be honest with you but just trying to help you figure it out.  I really doubt that would be a problem as I've never done sausage.  Hope you find an answer to your dilemna.

Marc
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 04, 2007, 12:15:46 PM
I posted more pics today, I think you can see them using the links in my earlier posting, if not please let me know and I'll post more links. One of the new pics shows the vents on the side of the generator, they look clear to me unless they are blocked from the inside somehow. Another pic shows the damper vent on top of the unit, there is no blockage there and it was wide open during the run. I have not seen smoke or heat escaping from around the door. The moisture on the sausage was everywhere in the top three racks of sausage (on top of the sausages only). The bottom rack was only slightly wet. Also note I dried the sausages with paper towels and in front of a fan before putting into the smoker and allowed to sit in the smoker @ 150 degrees for 45 minutes before turning on the generator. Just a little history about me.... I may be a newbe to Bradley smoking but I have been smoking cheeses and sausages and a few other meats for about ten years now. I have always had great success. The smoker I did my sausages/turkeys in looks like an outhouse and works very well. I just do not like to have to tend the wood chips to keep the smoke going, reason one I wanted a Bradley. The smoker I do cheese in is an old gas grill converted into a small cold smoker, I have a hotplate under the grill and stove pipe to run the smoke into the grill area. This also works very well but I am limited to 15 pounds of cheese at a time and it takes about five hours depending on the type of cheese I'm smoking. The wood chips here also need to be tended every 1/2 to 3/4 hour, reason two for the Bradley, reason three... I hope to be able to do larger quanities in the Bradley and not have to worry about the abient temperature as much. Cheese has to be kept under 100 degrees. I was disappointed when I unpacked the Bradley, I never seen one in person and was expecting the trays to be larger. I was hoping to be able to do 40 pounds of cheese at a time but now it looks like that will drop to 20 or so pounds. But I hope it does it faster. All my prevoius smoking has been cold smoking (under 165 degrees) reason four for the Bradley, hot smoking. I'm really looking forward to finding and correcting this problem. From looking through the forums I can see many things I want to try and hope I'll be able to come up with a few of my own to post for everyone else to try.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: smokin stu on December 04, 2007, 01:13:30 PM
I use the ET-73 and just run the wire through the vent on top.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: West Coast Kansan on December 04, 2007, 09:16:31 PM
I am stumped. Condensation when cold meets warm. All that should happen outside the tower.

Generator louvers are clear
Vent is open
Puff at generator when shutting door is normal
How do you use a lot of water in a short time at a low temperature and the water forms droplets inside the tower.  ???

I think we need a contest to figure out this one...  ::)  :-\
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: West Coast Kansan on December 04, 2007, 09:27:34 PM
a lot of streaks down the door. Door seal at the top ok? Door insulation? Making me crazy  :'(
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Stickbowcrafter on December 05, 2007, 01:09:43 AM
I'm wondering if this is an insulation, or lack there of, problem. I had my Original apart when I installed a digital temperature switch and it was filled with foam insulation. I'm wondering if there is a problem with your unit not being properly insulated. Say for instance your door or top of the cabinet got cheated on insulation at the factory, it would cause the kind of condensation you are seeing. Maybe take the door panel off or the back panel and see if the foam insulation is there and in good condition...

Maybe I'm reaching here...trying to brainstorm and help you get this fixed...

-Brian
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 05, 2007, 01:31:07 AM
That is what is driving me crazy, Bradley has such a good reputation I would hope they have good quality for the price they charge. I hate to have to pay to send the unit back to get looked at by the factory. Shipping is quite expensive for something this size. Do any factory people visit this site? Maybe they can do some brainstorming as well? The other factor is: Why is the water drying up in the bowl? If the water turns to steam it could collect on the walls of the unit as well as the sausage? Does the heating element look like it is positioned properly? The guard/deflector is located above the heating element, should it be on top or bottom? Like Stickbow said, I may be reaching but thats how you come up with ideas. Well it 4:30am, time to go to work. I'll check back in when I get home. Thanks again.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 05, 2007, 01:54:57 AM
EDITED:

I thought your reflector was installed wrong, but I can't get a good view of it. Can you remove the drip pan ("V" pan) and show us how the reflector is insalled. You may have a picture of that already on Flickr but I'm not finding it. If you can post a seperate link in your reply.

PS
Photobucket is what I use, and it is easy to post pictures on the forum using Photobucket.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Wildcat on December 05, 2007, 04:28:32 AM
I think the problem may have been found.  That is the only thing that would explain the water bowl evaporating.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: kiyotei on December 05, 2007, 08:15:05 AM
I noticed the V pan is not resting on the back mounts.  I doubt that is your problem but you probably ought to correct it.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: kiyotei on December 05, 2007, 08:18:11 AM
I assume you mean the reflector that is attached to the heating element.  It looks fine to me.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Tiny Tim on December 05, 2007, 10:02:03 AM
Quote from: kiyotei on December 05, 2007, 08:15:05 AM
I noticed the V pan is not resting on the back mounts.  I doubt that is your problem but you probably ought to correct it.

Those pegs are above the level of the "V-Pan" holders, and centered front to back.  I don't know what they do, but they're in the digital only, not the OBS or Stainless.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Mr Walleye on December 05, 2007, 12:06:52 PM
Those pegs are used as a guide when sliding the V-pan into place. I'm not sure I can describe this but I will try. You set the rear of the V-pan on the front pegs and begin to slide it back, making sure the V-pan goes under the centre pegs, continue to push the V-pan into place and keeping it up against the centre guide pegs. I wasn't aware they are not on the OBS. I know for sure they are on my DBS.

I looked at the photos and it appears the reflector around the heater is in the correct place, although I agree with Habs, it's had to see in the photo.

I wonder if it was a number of things, that together caused it.

For an example, would the combination of...
- The size of load and how it was arranged. Some of the things I noticed in the photos was the additional inverted racks. If the sausage was laid on the 8 racks, in tightly formed coils, would it affect the air flow in the tower? Not only air flow but would it restrict the heat from getting to the temp sender at the back of the cabinet. This could cause the temp sender to continue to ask for full power on the heat element. Also the restricted air flow would cause the bottom of the cabinet to be much hotter and possibly cause the evaporation of the water.

- The moisture content of the sausage. Again, I'm not experienced at making sausage so I may be off base here especially when you do have experience but I know you add a certain amount of water to your sausage mixture to make it easier to stuff. I wonder if this contributed to the moisture issue.

- The outside air and humidity level. This in combination with the above may have contributed to the problem as well.

If I followed along the thread correctly, you put your pre-dried sausage into the smoker at 150 degrees for 45 minutes followed by 2 hours of smoke before opening the door to rotate racks. Did the smoker remain set at 150 degrees? Could a piece of the sausage have been in contact with the temp sensor inside the tower?

The other thing that would be good to help trouble shoot this is if you did have a Maverick ET73 or any other thermometer with at least two temp probes to monitor the different levels of the cabinet in this situation. This might help to confirm or deny some of these theories.

These were just thoughts racing through my little brain.... just sorta thinking out loud. Next to this the only thing I can think of is the comment about the insulation. Could it be possible the door is missing the insulation? Who knows?
I certainly hope you get this sorted out and I would be interested in what you figure out is the culprit.

Mike
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 05, 2007, 12:43:50 PM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/15057053@N05/2089024883/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/15057053@N05/2089024503/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/15057053@N05/2089813282/

   Above are three pics showing the heat shield and 'V' tray. The shield and tray look OK but what could be causing the evaporation of the water so quickly? If that is the problem and not condensation from another source.
   I think the V tray is installed correctly. I can not see any other way to install it. It is resting on the front and back pegs. I do not know why there are center pegs, maybe so you cannot install it wrong?
Could the heat be getting trapped under the V tray somehow? There are louvers in the V tray and they are open. During the operation I did see both heat and smoke exiting the smoker through the vent.
   I did have eight layers of sausage in the smoker during the second run and only four layers during the first run. Both times I found water coming out the door when opened. I do see your reasoning of obstructing the air flow. How much sausage should one put in these smokers? I figure I had about 20 pounds, thats less than half that I put in my old homemade smoker but it is a lot bigger than this one. When I opened the door to rearrange the meat, the temperature did drop from 150 to about 100 or so before I got the door closed again. I did order a Maverick from Amazon, per Habs suggestion, but it is on backorder and will not get here till after Xmas. When I mix the sausage I only used 2 cups of water for thirty pounds of meat. Thats about half of what is suggested but it works fine for me.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Mr Walleye on December 05, 2007, 01:08:21 PM
I agree with you the V-pan is installed correctly and the centre pegs definitely prevent you from installing the V-pan upsidedown. By the looks of your V-pan the louvers are well opened up and should not trap the hot air in the bottom of the cabinet.

From your new pictures your heat shield on your heater looks fine as well.

Do you think the sausage was arranged in such a fashion that it could have been touching the temp sensor in the back of the cabinet? Even if it wasn't touching, just really close. This could cause a false reading and allow the heating element to stay red hot, causing the water to evaporate.

Has anybody else ran 20 lbs of sausage through? Any problems with moisture?

This just puzzles the he11 out of me!  ???

Mike

Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 05, 2007, 01:25:12 PM
I'll have to take a look at the sensor placement. I cannot say for sure it was not interfered with but I would hope Bradley would have it placed in such a way that it would be nearly impossible to interfere with it.

I hope someone who has run sausage will give me an idea of how much to run. Although the first run I only had 10 pounds in and only in four racks. I did not even have the extra racks in the smoker. I had the same problem with water in this run also.

I just sent Bradley an email and asked that they have someone from customer service look this discussion over. Maybe they can do some brainstorming as well. I know everyone here wants to know what the problem is as well as I do.

Thanks for the ideas!
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Mr Walleye on December 05, 2007, 01:41:13 PM
The sensor is located inbetween the 2nd and 3rd rack from the bottom. In your picture 100_0643 You can see it just peeking over the 2nd set of rack from the bottom. When you use the inverted racks it lifts your meat, in this case sausage, to nearly being level with the sensor so care must be taken not to let it touch. For that matter anything on your racks should not touch the walls of the smoker either because this will allow grease, etc. to run down the walls, possibly into the heater.

Just more thinkin' out loud.

Mike
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 05, 2007, 02:16:21 PM
I have done 15 pounds of sausage at one time, and I never has a moisture problem, but that was during a time when the ambient temperature was in the 50's. I don't think it has anything to do with the sausage or the size of the load. Twenty pounds should not be any problem, as long as you rotate top to bottom, and front to back. With the water pan emptying that fast, that has to be the cause of the moisture. Just have to figure out what is causing the water to evaporate that fast.

I do think that Mike may be on to something with the meat being too close to the sensor or maybe touching it.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 05, 2007, 02:37:12 PM
The meat touching the thermocouple would make sense but how would that explain the first run when I only loaded four racks with ten pounds of meat and had the same problem with the water? I'm wondering if the wrong heating element may have been installed causing it to heat much faster than designed? But once it got hot the temperature controller would back the heat off because it would be at the desired temp. Also I do not see any signs of overheating, such as large areas of discolored metal, burn marks.

The company I work for designs and builds industrial furnaces for heat treating and sintering, normally these operate anywhere from 1000 to 2600 degrees F. I have serviced these furnaces for 15 years so I do understand PID control and the way temperature controllers work. A thermocouple being insulated from the area it is to monitor will defiantly cause overheating inside the cabinet. But I just cannot get it through my thick head how this could have happened during the first run. Maybe I have a defective thermocouple?
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 06, 2007, 12:51:41 PM
Well nothing new from Bradley yet. I was told they discussed this with one to their techs and he said:

'yes you have a moisture problem whether it is too much moisture in the meat, too
much water in the bowl or damper not open enough'

Well duh? We know I have a moisture problem and we discussed all three items he mentioned here in the forums and pretty much ruled out all three. 1) The damper was wide open. 2) The bowl was only half full and dry after four hours. (I still think this is the problem but do not know why.) 3) Too much water in the sausage. I only use 2 cups for a 30 pound batch. The recipie calls for one quart, I have no problems with 2 cups, it has always worked well for me. Most recipies I have seen always call for more water than I use. Can anyone here suggest how much they use?

She suggested I call him to discuss it, so I tried as soon as I got home from work but they are on the west coast and he was gone for the day. I'll try to phone him in the morning, and update you after I talk with him and get home from work. Hopefully after talking it over on the phone we can come up with a few ideas.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Habanero Smoker on December 06, 2007, 01:32:11 PM
I've done several sausage recipes and the amount of liquid varies depending on the meat, other ingredients, and the style of sausage you are making. If you are using less then the original recipe is calling for, then I doubt the sausage is causing the moisture problem. The water in the bowl should not cause the problem under normal use. When the water evaporates as quick as you say it does, when the sensor is showing temperatures of 150°F, that is a problem.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: West Coast Kansan on December 07, 2007, 07:27:27 PM
Not saying this is right but....

Thermosensor is bad or as discusses above product touching the thermocouple protecting it from the heat coming up the back. This allows you to empty the water bowl.

plus

Arrangement of the sausage on the racks adaquately blocks the flow of air through the unit.  Lets you have condensation- Yea i know it happened with 10 lbs as well as 20 but 10 could do it if you pack it tight on a rack - Yea, OK

I quit, only coming back to this thread when someone PMs me it is solved.  Making me crazy.  ???
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 08, 2007, 08:18:16 AM
A quick update. I talked with a tech from Bradley on the phone on Friday. He does not feel there is a problem with the sensor or the temperature controller but does think the moisture is coming from the water in the bowl. He asked how far open the louvers in the V tray were. Since I was at work I could not measure them but told him they looked like they were open and not squeezed shut or anything like that. I also suggested he look this discussion over so he could check out the pictures and get up to speed on everything we have been discussing. He told me to take some pliers and open the louvers in the V tray even more than they are; he believes the heat is being trapped between the V tray and the water bowl causing it to overheat. He said, like you also told me, that the water in the bowl should last much longer than it had for me. By opening the louvers it should allow a better flow of heat to the smoker area instead of trapping it below.
I asked about how the units were insulated and if it were possible that they forgot to insulate the door of other area of the unit. He said it would be very easy to check since the whole thing is injected with high temp foam, there should be no voids. He said to just press on the inside of the door it should feel solid and not give. After he said it was foam injected I really do not think insulation is the problem.
I have not opened the louvers yet because at the moment I have nothing to smoke, but I will most defiantly give it a try as soon as I come up with something to smoke. I'm open for suggestions, anyone have any ideas for something quick and easy to try? I do want to make kielbasa but that takes a while and I would like to try something ASAP so I determine if the more open louver idea works.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Smoking Duck on December 08, 2007, 08:21:29 AM
Yardbirds are pretty quick and easy.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Wildcat on December 08, 2007, 09:15:05 AM
Meatloaf and the chicken wrap are quick and easy.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Mr Walleye on December 08, 2007, 09:33:46 AM
Try some Chicken Thighs with your favorite rub. Mmmmmm they're tasty too!  ;)

Mike
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: rhiskett on December 08, 2007, 12:00:45 PM
Try putting some cooking oil on top of the water in the pan.  I should reduce the amount of evaporation as long as the water pan doesn't boil, while still allowing the pucks to be extinguished.  I also have a moisture problem in my original smoker. i have never done sausage so it hasn't really bothered me, however i do have a stain on the old kitchen table i keep it on in the garage.  I had moisture on the first try like you and thought that was normal.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 09, 2007, 10:00:16 AM
Tyring a yard bird today. I opened up the louvers per Bradleys suggestion, preheated the smoker to 220 degrees, also put a firebrick from work in the lower chamber to help hold the heat while opening the door during the cooking. I soaked the bird in lemon juice and pepper for a couple hours, dried and coated with EVOO, S&P then put into the middle of smoker. Smoked for two hours fourty minutes using hickory, then raised the temp to 230 for another 1-1/2 hours. I have another hour to go before checking the internal temp. I did not get my maverick yet so I have to check manually. I did notice though after the two hours of smoking the water bowl was getting low on water again. I did not notice the water running out the door as I had when doing the two sausage runs. I'm not sure if the louver mod helped yet or not but it looks better, I just cannot explain why I keep running out of water after four hours and no one else is. The bowl was half full of cold water at the start and it is thirty degrees outside, damper is wide open, hoping to prevent rubbery skin on the bird. I'll let you know how it comes out.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Gizmo on December 09, 2007, 10:57:59 AM
The bradley won't get hot enough in my opinion to prevent the rubbery skin and you will need higher than 230 deg to even come close.  You will need to finish on a grill or house oven (broiler would be the best) to get a crisp skin.
Let us know how it turns out.
On your water bowl going dry, try using 3/4 full instead of just 1/2.  I don't recall from this thread if you were monitoring the temperature at the meat with a remote thermometer.  Since you are operating in cold temperatures, I would be currious to know what the temp is at the water bowl and the meat.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 09, 2007, 11:34:17 AM
Gizmo, thanks for the tip. I thought by keeping the damper wide open was enough to prevent the rubbery skin. After reading your post I went out to the smoker and checked the internal temp of the bird, it was 160. So I pulled it out and put it under the broiler for a few minutes. Its resting now but looks great. It looked really good out of the smoker but was not the skin was not crispy. Damm it smells good!
Thanks. Greg
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Gizmo on December 09, 2007, 11:38:06 AM
Fortunatly the rubbery skin doesn't affect the awesome taste inside.   ;)
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 09, 2007, 12:56:13 PM
Well it came out really good. I know I can do better though. Next time I'll brine the bird instead of just marinating it for a couple hours. I can call this one a success, had enough smoke flavor and tasted great. The breast meat was a little dry, not bad though. The brine next time will take care of that. I did not see any water running out the door or droplets at the top of the smoker. It was hotter than the run with the sausage but opening up the louvers may have helped. I'll know for sure when I get the kielbasa made and smoked. Hopefully that will happen before XMAS but I cannot guarantee that.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: kiyotei on December 09, 2007, 04:13:10 PM
dude where do you live that you eat kielbasa ???  I grew up in Pittsburgh, PA and we lived on it there, stuff is awesome when you find a good brand to buy.  I keep thinking about making my own as well.  Its almost impossible to find good quality stuff in stores.  We had a family friend who made it twice a year, Xmas and Easter.  His kielbasa was fantastic.  Alsa he retired from making it and I don't live there any more.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Gizmo on December 09, 2007, 04:20:11 PM
Kiyotei,
Sounds like a road trip for a recipe.  Maybe swap him some brisket and pulled pork for a few ingredients.   ::)
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 09, 2007, 04:23:56 PM
kiyotei, I live about a 100 miles or so NE of Pittsburgh, near the small city of DuBois if you are familiar with that area. I live very close to interstate 80. When I get a chance I'll copy my kielbasa recipe for you. I have never had a single complaint! The nice thing about making your own is you control what goes in it. No need to swap me for my recipe, everyone here has been very helpful and I do not mind sharing.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Smoking Duck on December 09, 2007, 04:25:43 PM
Kiyotei,
Where in the Burgh did you grow up?  I grew up there myself (Bethel Park).  About the only thing I miss more than the kielbasa are the pierogies.  Can't find those anywhere.  Whenever I get home, I make my Mom cook me up a big plate smothered in onions.

Pensrock,

Spent some time in Punxy before I went through the big D.  I'm very familiar with DuBois.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 09, 2007, 04:29:33 PM
I used to work in Punsxy right out of school. I now work in St. Marys and live near the DuBois Airport right outside Falls Creek. Small world isn't it? Nice to meet a couple guys from PA. Too bad the Steelers got thier butts kicked, I thought the way they played in the first half they might have a chance.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Smoking Duck on December 09, 2007, 04:48:23 PM
No kidding....I had to turn the game off before I threw something through the 60" tv.  The wife would not have been happy if I'd done that!
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 09, 2007, 04:54:50 PM
I posted my recipe in the meat section of Recipe Discussions. I hope everyone enjoys it.

Smoking Duck, I know how you feel. The Steelers just did not make the halftime adjustments and NE did. I blame that as well as some of the other losses on having a new coach. It will probably take a little time for him to learn how to make game time adjustments. He has had it pretty easy so far, he has a really good team to start out with. I do not think Cower would have lost to the Jets or Cardnials.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: SKSmoker on December 09, 2007, 09:02:52 PM
I fill my water bowl completely full with water as hot as I can get from the tap. This will also help you with your temp recovery. Putting in cold water will just bring your temp down as the unit has to heat that much water up. Let your hotwater tap run for a few mins until it gets as hot as it can. Fill up the bowl _full_ and put in your smoker. I do this and I don't run out of water at 250F for 8hrs.

In colder weather, preheat your bradley @ 320F. It takes less time, it has more heat in the cabinet when you go to load your meat and will take less time to recover. That with a full pot of hot water, and you should be set. I tried the cold water once, and it didn't work well at all.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: pensrock on December 10, 2007, 01:31:27 PM
SKSmoker, I'll try that next time I'm hot smoking. Thanks for the tips.
Title: Re: moisture in smoker
Post by: Stickbowcrafter on December 14, 2007, 03:43:25 AM
Wow, great to see so many PA folks here. Bethel Park is real close, I'm in Collier Township near Bridgeville.

Pensrock, I've made  lot of sausage in my original Bradley and never had a problem. The overcrowding theory seemed to make sense but it still doesn't explain the water evaporating so quickly. For what it's worth, I use hickory dowel rods to hang my sausage. Speaking of kielbasa...just did some a week or so ago.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/halbleib/polish5.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/halbleib/polish6.jpg)

Here's a link to the thread with the recipe and method I followed:

http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=6290.0 (http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=6290.0)

-Brian