Author Topic: Celery Juice powder  (Read 5495 times)

Offline rkp

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Celery Juice powder
« on: February 11, 2011, 01:05:36 pm »
Anybody ever used this in place of a nitrate? I like the thought of making sausage without the nitrates.
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Offline Habanero Smoker

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 01:18:10 pm »
Celery juice powder does seem to be gaining interest. According to the description; by using celery juice powder you do not get that characteristic taste that you get from using either sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate. I've never used it, and thought about using it for smoked sausage, but the price it too high for me. My overall view is that nitrates are nitrates. There may be some benefits from using natural nitrates that come from celery, but on the other hand saltpeter (potassium nitrate) is natural.


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Offline Father Tom

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 01:21:55 pm »
Yes I have but only one time.  The Sausagemaker.com has Celery Juice Powder listed.  They say it is a natural cure substitute to Sodium or Potassium Nitrite and that it has the same capabilities and curing properties. They sell 1.25 Ounces and say it makes 25 lbs.  They also say that this ingredient does the job of basic salt/nitrite cure???????????????????

Let us know how it turns out........

Tom

Offline rkp

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 01:23:37 pm »
Good point, I'll let you know how my kielbasa turns out this weekend with it.
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Offline BuyLowSellHigh

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 03:12:19 pm »
The reason celery products work is because celery is very high in nitrate.  A highly regarded survey published in 2009 found an average nitrate concentration of 1495 ppm nitrate in conventionally grown celery.  Of the veggies analyzed, (broccoli, cabbage, celery, lettuce and spinach), only spinach was higher (2797).  Other studies have established that ~ 80% of the nitrates in the human diet come from vegetables.  Cured meats are the primary source of nitrites in the human diet.

Because of the USDA's labelling regulations, meats cured with celery can be labeled organic, natural and nitrate free, if they meet the other necessary criteria, which is very misleading.  As a chemist, nitrate is nitrate.  If you want to use nitrate as your curing agent and you prefer it from a vegetable source, then it's a good product.
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Offline rkp

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 11:39:59 am »
So do all nitrates in any form cause cancer?  My taster from the kielbasa batch with celery powder was good. Had no chemical taste like cure #1 adds. I'm waiting on the sausage to finish. Had to put it back in today to try and reach IT 152 . It ran for 8hrs ( 1hr@100,1hr@125,1hr@145,5hrs@165,  IT only 143) last night on only a 5lb batch. I was trying to finish it today @165 cab temp. I noticed today my auber meat probe could not read boiling water (90) and if u touch the wire it jumps all over the place. before I had the pid I got the IT of 152 on sausage faster, probably due to the inconsistent heat control of the obs. What would be a normal time @165 on a 5lb batch to reach IT of 152??
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Offline NePaSmoKer

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 11:51:17 am »
I have never had any chemical taste from any of the cure in any of my sausage. If you have a chemical taste your using way to much cure.


Offline rkp

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 12:19:09 pm »
1 tsp per 5lbs.
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Offline Habanero Smoker

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 12:53:36 pm »
To me that is not a chemical taste. That is the flavoring that sodium nitrites provides. I love that flavor in hams, bacon and other cured whole muscle meats, but not in my sausages.


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Offline rkp

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 01:07:27 pm »
yeah, its a distinctive taste for sure. To me its an after taste. For the celery powder I used 2tsp for 5lbs. no instructions on the packet, only lists the package weight and that it does 25lbs. 
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Offline BuyLowSellHigh

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 01:13:14 pm »
So do all nitrates in any form cause cancer?  My taster from the kielbasa batch with celery powder was good. Had no chemical taste like cure #1 adds.  ...

First, I have no idea what you mean by "chemical taste", but I will agree with NePaS. Any direct taste contributed by cure #1 in appropriate amount should be sensed basically as salty.  The flavor of sodium nitrite is generally likened to salt.  Nitrites do contribute to a different flavor development over time that is characteristic of cured meats (some describe it as the ham taste), but by itself it should basically taste like salt.

Second,  I know of no definitive, well conducted study either toxicological or epidemiological,and there have been many, that has found that nitrate is cancer causing.  This remains the position of the National Academy of Sciences and the FDA who have studied the question at length for more than 30 years.

Please understand that when you use celery products you are most likely using predominantly nitrate unless a suitable bacteria that effects the reduction of nitrate to nitrite has been included.  Nitrate and nitrite are a "couple", in that they can be interconverted.  In curing meat nitrite is the working agent and nitrate serves as a reservoir of reserve capacity.  Normally nitrate is included for long-term cures, such as with hams and other dry aged meats, and not for short term curing applications.  The use of celery products as nitrite source requires either pretreatment or the inclusion of a culture to reduce the nitrate to nitrite.  Without adequate controls this can lead to higher levels of nitrite than would normally be had with the use of a nitrite curing agent directly.

Nitrite either in its sodium or potassium salt form poses an acute health risk due to its ability to bind with hemoglobin.  The levels required for that to be a serious concern would require eating a vast amount of a properly cured meat product in on sitting, enough so that the normal salt levels would probably present a greater immediate health risk.

There have been suggestions and hypotheses that nitrites in the diet present a health risk due to the potential of reacting with amines to produce nitrosamines, some of which are known to be potent carcinogens.  However, numerous toxicological studies have not been able to find a link between dietary intake of nitrites and cancer.  It remains a concern that has not been substantiated after significant effort to confirm a cause and effect relationship.

In spite of the lack of any credible supporting scientific evidence, the concern over adverse health effects of nitrate and nitrite in the human diet can and does lead to fear of both.  The web is full of non-credible information suggesting serious adverse health effects from both nitrates and nitrites.  In the interest of neutrality let me suggest two easily obtained references, both of which strike me as unbiased and neutral without any benefit of position either pro or con:

1.  From The New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services   

2.  From The University of Minnesota Extension Service

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Offline rkp

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 01:47:09 pm »
Thanks,  I'm new to smoking and this is all great info. I am definitely learning about this as I go with lots of help from you guys. I know that all you hear about is nitrates and cancer, limit the amount of preserved meats you eat and all that. Of course I like meat/food too much to change my diet. But if any of it is true and a product like celery powder is healthier or if it tastes better than cure, then I would use it. There is some kind of taste that my wife and I have noticed in the sausages I have made with cure #1 and I would say it is not a salty taste, maybe a biting after taste or maybe its the smoke, but this batch of Kielbasa so far does not have that taste. Sausagemaker says that the celery powder is processed to be used as a natural nitrate that breaks down to a nitrite to cure the sausage. Man, maybe too much info. If it tastes good eat it!
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Offline BuyLowSellHigh

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 02:31:16 pm »
I too am largely in the "if it taste good eat it camp".

A couple of added thoughts about your experience of cure #1 vs celery juice powder and the taste differences.

Nitrate and nitrite are anions and come as salts.  As far as source goes nitrate is nitrate and nitrite is nitrite, organic or otherwise.  But different sources can lead to different taste.  First in the case of Cure #1,  93.75% of what you are adding is salt.  If you don't compensate for the salt that comes with it by reducing the amount of salt in the recipe then changing to celery juice powder will lead to an overall lower salt level.

Second, nitrate salts do not have the same taste impact that as nitrite salts.  As I noted above and by sausagemakers description, if you haven't provided for the conversion of the natural nitrate in the celery product then you likely have a very low nitrite level, which will diminish both the desired protective impact as well as the taste impact that nitrite brings.

Third, while nitrite is nitrite, etc., the celery juice powder comes with a bunch of other stuff that is not present in Cure #1.  That stuff may be contributing its own flavors or may be masking other flavors you find undesirable (flavor masking of off flavors is one of the things salt does, especially in meats).

So there is no simple answer to why it taste different to you.  If it does, it does.  However, the use of celery juice powder as you have described also comes with a general lack of control of the nitrite level in the "cured" product, and that can present it's own problems from either too much or too little.  Personally, I like control.
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Offline pikeman_95

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 06:55:48 pm »
I can not help jump in here a little. I have made sausage for 45 years using cure number one. [In the old days it was called it Preg powder] I have never found a bitter or any other kind of after taste.  But what I have found switching from one wood to another can make a huge difference. Some woods have different pitches in them which can have an after taste. I have not tried the celery version of nitrate but I do know I want control of the bugs. I had a friend die of botulism poisoning and I am not willing to take chances. If you are going to use the celery based cure make sure you know what you are doing.

Offline Habanero Smoker

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Re: Celery Juice powder
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 01:48:38 am »
People's taste buds experience different tastes, so what you are tasting could be from the nitrites. For example I hate cilantro it has a soapy bitter taste and can only tolerate it in very small quantities in a dish, and cumin tastes like bad body odor or dirt, I have to roast it before I can tolerate it. Most people do not experience this.

If you believe that nitrates cause cancer, then cure #1 would be safer to use. Nitrates are considered a slow cure, and as pointed out nitrates (which provide no protection) need to convert to nitrites in order to begin to cure the meat and protect it. Since cure #1 has no nitrates at all there will be no residual nitrates left in the meat. As for celery powder which has only nitrates. Then you have two concerns, did you cure it long enough for nitrates to convert to enough nitrites to start curing and provide enough protection, and secondly how much residual nitrates that are still left in the meat. The fewer nitrites that were converted the less characteristic nitrite flavor you will have.

Here is a write up on commonly used cures in the U.S. Since there is so much interest in celery juice powder I may add that.

Curing Salts
and
Bradley Curing Salts



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  ::)