Norbert's Jazzed Upped Smoker

rgardjr · October 26, 2005, 06:54:01 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oldman
I take it then that line #9 feeds both L1 and T1 in this picture.

Which one goes to the heating element? A2 or A1? If I had to guess I would say A1.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That picture is not the exact same SCR that we need for our application. It's DC powered. But the switched portion is the L1 and T1. So it looks to me like Pin 9 would go to T1 and then L1 would go out to one side of both elements.

But now that I'm looking at the diagram I guess I'm a little confused. I thought the purpose of the SCR was so that the load wouldn't be traveling accross the relay in the TC Switch. Help me out here because it looks like the load would be crossing both relays-would either of these changes work:

Again my knowledge of AC is pretty limited (as anyone that saw my purposed wiring diagram yesterday could easily see). Right or wrong?
Thanks-
Rick

Oldman · October 26, 2005, 07:03:55 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That picture is not the exact same SCR that we need for our application. It's DC powered. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I know but you know how companies are... one general set of directions for everything today. I did get the AC 110 model.

Olds

Norbert · October 26, 2005, 10:23:23 PM

The black feed as to go only to the TS so that when the TS is switch off you don't have live wire all over the place. In real life the connection on the drawing is a wire join. The power will be on both side of the SCR when the TS switch on. This way the SCR will switch on and the power will go trough the SCR switch and complete the circuit to feed the other side of the element.

Don't forget that the SCR works like a relay. I didn't want to confuse you by numbering the SCR on my drawing, because they are all different and the one you are showing is a DC. One side is for the load and the other for the switch. The order of the wire doesn't matter as long as you use the proper side to feed it and the other for the switch. The little drawing I did on the SCR represents the switch.

I see that you're having fun connecting all this together. I recommend that you try the schematic with a 110ac light bulb in place of the element. You will have to connect everything as per the drawing on your bench. That way you will see how simple this is. Also you could put the light in an enclose area with the probe. That way when the light turns on it will heat the probe and switch the TS on and off. Then you can program the TS anyway you want and see the result immediately. Soon this will be all over and you won't have any thing to do. So take your time and enjoy it.

rgardjr · October 26, 2005, 11:05:23 PM

Norbert-
Did you have a chance to see my question about the load crossing the TS relay? I thought the purpose of the SCR was to keep the load off the TS relay? Is it O.K. because the TS relay has already been closed by the time the load is needed because the SCR relay closes second? Again, I'm just a little confused about what the SCR is for at this point.
Thanks-
Rick

Norbert · October 27, 2005, 11:44:15 AM

You're right Rick sorry. The modification you made to the drawing is the right way. I've look at my BS and this is how I did it the first time the correct way. I drew this diagram by memory. I guess my memory is not that good. Like I said earlier I'm more of a visual person.

Norbert

rgardjr · October 27, 2005, 06:04:33 PM

Norbert-
No problem at all. I just wanted to make sure that I understood the circuit and it looks like I do now. Remember, I didn't have a clue how to wire this up before you posted your diagram so I'm very grateful that you did.
Thanks-
Rick

bubbagump · October 29, 2005, 04:32:21 PM

Hi Guys,

I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. While I am not yet an expert in the art of smoking and cannot provide much input in that arena, the electrical field is something I do specialize in and would like to offer some input to clarify a few things.

First, the 18/3 power cord that is on the stock Bradley smoker, as purchased, is sized adequately. The smoker does have the ETL label of approval on the back, which is similar to a UL listing. So I wouldn't be concerned about changing it. As long as you don't mess with the fuse size (10 amp.) the unit is safe as designed.

When sizing power cords for appliances you don't go by the standard rule for wiring sizing as in construction, i.e. 12 gauge - 20 amp., 14 gauge - 15 amp. ect. and so on. This is all part of the inspection and testing process that the product goes through before making it to the market. Take a look at your toaster or hair dryer (for those of you that still need a hair dryer) you'll see what I mean.

Second, the TS series switch is not a PID, as someone pointed out. It is really nothing more than a line voltage thermostat with a lot more bells and whistles.

Norbert keeps referring to using an SCR, which I'm sure he means an SSR, which is a solid state relay. An SCR is a component of an SSR. The use of an SSR (solid state relay) with the TS series switch is really unnecessary. The 16 amp. rated switch is sized more than adequate to give long, reliable service life when using it with the BS, even if you add an additional heating element. The amount of switching that occurs with the TS switch is nothing compared to what goes on when using a PID controller.

You really only need to use an SSR when using a PID controller. The PID will switch the load (heating element in our case) numerous times a minute and sometimes only for fractions of seconds as it gets closer to setpoint. A typical electro-mechanical relay will not last under this kind of work load, so this where the SSR comes into play. This type of rapid switching does not go on with a line voltage thermostat. The rapid switching of the SSR by the PID prevents overshooting your setpoint, which is what you will experience using the TS switch, or any line voltage thermostat, especially if you add additional heating elements, which will increase the amount of residual heat in the box. It really depends how close to setpoint you want the BS to stay at, as to whether you use a line voltage thermostat or a PID controller. But again, using an SSR with a line voltage thermostat is unnecessary. Just size the thermostat appropriately and you'll be fine. Also, when using an SSR always order one with normally open contacts. You can get them both ways normally open or normally closed. You do not want normally closed.

Now one final observation and comment. I've read a lot of posts since joining here about modifications being made to their smoker. For those of us that like to tinker with things that's half the fun of owning the BS. I'm actually in the process of adding a PID controller to mine.

But one word of caution. Please do not attempt any modifications to the electrical system of your BS unless you are absoulutely sure about what you are doing. At the risk of sounding dramatic, an improper modification can result in a death.

Think about it. The BS is a big metal box, used outside, and plugged into an electrical outlet. The testing and inspection process it went through to get it into the marketplace ensured that it was safe to use as designed. Once modifications are made to it you take on that responsibility.

Also, be sure that your BS is plugged into a GFCI protected circuit and test it often.

Trust me, I'm not making these statements out of arrogance but more out of a concern for your safety and that of your family. I know of an incident where a person improperly wired something that resulted in the death of his young twin daugthers. Although the father thought he knew what he was doing, he in fact didn't and it ended in a horrible tragedy.

So have fun, but please be safe and get help if needed.

Thanks,

Bubbagump

Oldman · October 29, 2005, 06:17:39 PM

Ummm so now I have a SSR coming I don't really need... Oh well such is life and if this is the biggest problem I've ever have then I don't have one.

I read one small review that said this unit would hold a + / - 1 degree... well that works for me if in fact it does. I will not be adding another element as my unit gets hot as it is.

So if I understand this correctly all I have to do is hook 6 wires to this TS. Two for the probe (#1 and #2.) Two for power in,(#10 and #11.) Two for power out to the element (#8 and #9.) If this is correct then this is a piece-o-cake. The only other item I will need to address is the mechanical grounding. If this is the case I will do much testing to see what + / - temp. swings I get.

Seeing how fast an element cools down helps lower temp. swings I got a feeling that my fan's air flow will come into play here. This ought to be interesting...as I have the older glass type element and not the newer metal style. In fact I have an extra glass element.

Yepper this ought to be cotton-pickin' interesting.

Thanks all for your input concerning this matter. Everyone who has posted concerning this matter has been of a great help and while some information is in error, it is the spirit of taking one's time to reach out and offer help/ advice that counts in my book. Again all much thanks... this is what makes this site so nice to be a member of... [^] Good Job All~~~! [:p]

Olds

bubbagump · October 29, 2005, 07:39:30 PM

Olds,

Your diagram is correct.

I do have one suggestion if you use the TS, or any line voltage thermostat to control the BS. That is, leave the slide reostat in place. Doing so will allow you to control the BS temp. with a little more precision.

You can slide the reostat to high when warming up the BS, and when first placing your meat into it to get it up to temp quicker. Once the BS is up to temp, you can experiment by sliding it down a bit. This will allow the BS to reach setpoint more gradually when cycling and help offset some of the overshoot by cutting down on the amount of residual heat that running the element on high would result in.

Bubbagump

Oldman · October 29, 2005, 07:46:50 PM

Good point....I had already decided to do a box and have it as a plug and play. I think it was TomG that made the point about that if the controller dieing and if it was hard wired that the smoker would be down.

Well I've got the TS and next week I think I will make a clear box for it with outlets. Between this unit and my fan my Bradley will purr like a soft woman... [^]

Olds

bubbagump · October 29, 2005, 09:03:17 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oldman
 Between this unit and my fan my Bradley will purr like a soft woman... [^]

Olds

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Olds, I'm getting a nice visual on this one. [:D]

Bubbagump

Norbert · October 30, 2005, 03:13:50 PM

Hi

Thanks Bubbagump for your ideas it's appreciated except for the dying part, unless I bring my smoker in the Jacuzzi I don't think it's going to kill my daughters. I'm not an engineer but I've worked as an electrician in the army many years ago and this project is not that complicated. The members of this forum that have showed some interest in this modification I think are very intelligent even more then me so I don't think we should worry. You know I have a motorcycle and the only people who think that I might kill my self are my wife, my mother and mother in law. If I listen to them I would close the shop, sell every thing and watch TV. I think that's why it's so popular.

To really know the facts on SSR and SCR please read this page from Branom instrument co. It's very enlightening.
http://www.branom.com/literature/scr.html

To calculate the wire size, go to this page:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

I'm thankful I was able to share this modification with you all. With your help I was able to fine tune my BS and got it to do what I wanted. Thanks!

Norbert

car54 · October 30, 2005, 04:39:06 PM

Norbert,

I went to the site for wire sizes and the smallest guage that they list is 14. Even if you plug in 1 foot and 1 amp, it still comes up 14 guage. I believe bubbagump is correct.

Brad

bubbagump · October 30, 2005, 05:27:04 PM

Hi Norbert,

As I mentioned in my previous reply, my statements were made out of concern for safety, and not arrogance. I did not mean to imply, in any way, that your modification would kill you or your family, or anyone else for that matter. Nor did I suggest that no one should attempt modifications to their smoker. But making modifications to the electrical system of any appliance without a thorough understanding of what one is doing can possibly result in injury or death, regardless of whether you take it into your Jacuzzi, or not. I'm sorry, you may not like the way that sounds, but it's a fact that has unfortunately been proven too many times.

I do agree you that your project is not complicated. That is, for someone with a moderate amount of electrical knowledge, but not everyone has experience in that area. So what may seem straight forward and simple to one person, may be completely foreign to another. So the point was, and still is, a person should not attempt any modification to the electrical system of their BS unless they are absolutely sure of what they are doing. And if there not they should seek help (hands on) from someone that does.

As far as the SSR/SCR issue goes, An SSR (solid state relay) can be one of two output types, MOSFET or SCR. Your link describes an SCR Power Controller. Definitely not something you would be using to control your BS heating element.

The wire sizing chart your link points to is, again, based on the electrical construction industry. It has nothing to do with sizing appliance cords. The reason that Car54 kept coming up with #14 gauge wire is because that is the smallest allowable wire size used in electrical construction.

Like I said before, check your toaster or hair dryer. I have an 1150 watt (9.5 amp) toaster with a 2 wire 18 gauge cord. My wife's hair dryer is 1650 watts (13.75 amps) and is supplied by a 2 wire 16 gauge cord. Both of these appliances, as does the BS, have thermal overload protection built into them. And as I said before, the testing that appliances go through to get into the marketplace ensure they operate safely as designed and built.

I apologize for any misunderstanding there was from my previous post and I hope this clears things up.

Take care,

Bubbagump

Oldman · October 30, 2005, 10:44:52 PM

Hey Guys you all really want to know what a problem is?????????

I just check my TS and it rattles when you shake it... I cannot seem to win on this one... [V]

Olds