This is my first post to the forum, so please be kind. I've gleaned so much info the past month that I really feel at home here. You guys really rock!
My buddy and I both took shipment on our new DBS's about two months ago and have already turned out some killer BBQ. This guy is a su chef by trade and I have been grillin', smokin', and barbecuin' since I was ten but never with the walkaway ease of the DBS.
However, the first potential drawback we encountered was the temperature swings; sometimes as much as 20 degreesF after a thorough preheating and a full load that was brought to temp (220F) with the swings that continued after we were well on our way (almost identical on both machines with varying loads). Times did average out overall but there's still a lot of guesswork involved after considering ambient temperature, wind, etc...
So after finding this incredible site and robs postings on PID construction I built two identicle units. everything worked out beautifully until I tried auto tuning them. At first I didn't realize the PID was to bring the temperature up on it's own so I brought it up with the digital side and puck burner first and then switched cords before attempting AT but I got nothing from the SSR on either unit. After realizing the PID should bring the temperature up on it's own I attempted that and still, nothing. I'm setting the parameters to the manual but still nothing. One thing I think would really help out would be a typical flow chart after auto tuning for 220F. If someone could help me out with that I would sure appreciate it. I don't believe I could have two bad SSR's from the get go and I've checked the wiring on both PID's three times and both are per the plan. I can here them both close but no heat. I'm really bewildered at this point but through all this turned out some great Q. Thanks to everyone in advance and to Iceman, robs, Icerat4, Olds, and all the others I've gleaned from so far. Just hope I can contribute as much in the future. ??? ??? ;D :-[
One thing I notice is that you are using the DBS, which has another cord required to make the PID function correctly (the one in Rob's plan is for the Original and Stainless models that don't have the extra cord)...I'll go find the post(s) regarding that for ya and link them here.
Welcome Artmiester;
Tiny will set you up with the post he is talking about and that should clear things up for you. Good luck and please keep us posted. :)
Okay, after a little looking, I think I finally found what I was looking for. Looks like I was mistaken that you need another cord hooked to the PID, but the smaller sensor cord does have to be connected to both the Smoke Generator and the Cabinet.
I hope the thread I'm linking will be helpful for you. Here it is: http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=4639.0 (http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=4639.0)
Thanks, Tiny! I hadn't caught that post previously but now that I have I'll be sure to check out the SSR input/output (didn't realize the SSR has an LED since I hung the back of it out the back of the project box for a heat sink). Also installed an (8) amp fuse on the way into the box and a lit switch after that. Thought that might be the glitch and took the switch out of the loop but that had no effect. I'll check out the SSRs tonight and get back to y'all. Thanx again everybody! Boy, between the wealth of knowledge here and the quick responses how can ya go wrong?
Oh, yeah, I've had the small cord from the generator to the sensor plugged in through all of this. Also on the previous post that's an 8 amp fuse. Thanx again.
Got home this afternoon and opened the boxes plugged them in and neither LED lights on the SSRs. Checked across L1 and TI and between A1 and A2 and everything seems OK there. I'm ordering them now...
Thanx, All
I'll keep ya posted...
Artmiester,
Welcome to the forum. When you say everything is okay, does that mean you see enough voltage across A1/A2 to turn the relay on and the polarity is correct?
Arcs_n_Sparks
Hey Arcs,
That's right, I've got 13.25DC and no LED. Trying to get them replaced by the weekend.
Thanx for your help. 8)
Arcs, HELP!!
My Relays arrived late so haven't had a chance to test them until last night. Now I still have no LEDs and nothing across A1 & A2. I do have 115v across L1 and T1, however, but this seems rudimentary. At this point I really believe my set up parameters have to be incorrect. I've read every thread I can find on programming before PID auto tuning and it seems like when anyone asks for a flow chart for the setup parameters they never get a response, just a suggestion on changing one or two of the params. Tried the flow chart in the manual and the the default list; niether seems to work. Attempted running auto tune so many times now I must have the PID as confused as I am. Also on the SV there is an A100 that alternates with temperature set that I don't see explained anywhere? Guess I need to be led by the hand through this. Can you help, Arcs? Sure appreciate it... ??? ??? ???
OKay, I've been re-reading your posts, and I have a couple of questions relating to problems I had when I was building my PID. First, on the wiring diagram in the instructions, are you hooking it up reading the diagram from right (cord coming from wall or power source) to left (where the cord goes into the tower heating element)? Another problem I had when I checked the PID before plugging in to the smoker, just into the wall outlet, my wires were reversed on the Thermocouple...it came up with an ambient temp, but when I applied heat to the probe, the number on the top line went down.
I'm not sure why you're seeing the A100 in the SV line, but I don't have my manual here right now to look at it...I'll try to stop at home and grab it while I'm out for lunch.
I also had one more screwup, as I was so close to done, I wasn't paying close enough attention. I wired in 2 fuses, a 10 Amp for the whole setup, and another 1 Amp isolated to the PID Controller. In my rush, I put the 1A where the 10A should have gone, and vice versa. Worked fine until I was testing it using the smoker and the 1A fuse blew. Put them the way they should be and has worked fine since.
Oh, one other thing. When I autotuned, I let the smoker get to temperature and had an average load in it (average for me), then started the Autotune function. Also, aside from just bench testing and recording the values that were already in the PID's memory, I didn't change anything before starting the smoker and then autotuning once it got up to temp. Granted, I have the original, not the digital smoker.
I lied, just thought of another thing. As I am not familiar with the Digital, I can't actually tell you what to do here, but on my original, I have the temp selector set all the way as high as it will go. What do you have the tower side of your settings at?
Okay, I've written a lot, and I think I've even managed to confuse myself, so I'll stop here, get my manual, and try to help more this afternoon.
Hey Tiny,
Thanks so much for your help! I've read all your posts on PIDs and your replies from Arcs. Unfortunately, I failed to write down the values already in the PIDs memory and screwed around with it before actually hooking it up and trying auto tune. Maybe you could pass them along if you still have them. Think my whole problem is setup values.
I'm reasonably sure they are wired correctly (I've lost count on how many times I checked them).
I believe your supposed to plug the PID directly into an AC wall outlet and the female end at the back of the tower so the generator's not involved on the DBS.
Experienced the same problem with the Thermocouples from Omega being reversed although they were per the diagram. Had the cheapies from Auber at first which worked OK. Both (K) type.
I've read about the 1amp fuse for the PID, do you think it's neccessary?
Never been able to bring up the temperature with the PID. The first few times I tried auto tuning I brought the temperature up from the generator and puck burner. Just before attempting auto tune I switched cords and watched the temp drop from 220F to 154F (temperature held by the puck burner). Each time I set up I had the thermocouple hanging in the center of the cabinet with a 2 brick load on the center with the puck burner going full time and temperature swings within 10F of 220F.
This A100 alternating with the 220F when you press the set button is a mystery. Also not sure wether the 220F needs reaffirmed or just set.
Anyway, a continuing thank you for all your help, Tim, and I eagerly await your next post.
Hi Art
You are correct regarding the PID on the DBS. The PID is plugged directly into an AC outlet, then into the back of the tower unit. The smoke generator is also plugged into an AC outlet.
Here are the default settings for the Auber PID:
P = 500
I = 1000
D = 120
If you would like I can email you a .pdf version of the Auber PID manual. Just let me know.
Mike
Art
I know from reading your posts you have checked you wiring a number of times. I'm assuming you are using the wiring diagram located here: http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/pid/diagram.jpg
Tiny touched on it it in his post, make sure you have it wired the same as the diagram with the AC 120 v comming into it from the right side of the diagram. Then follow each wire to ensure they are connected properly. I would also check you thermocoupler setting to make sure you have it set for the correct one (K type, I believe this is under setting "Sn = 0").
Mike
I'll try to get the default parameters that Mr. W didn't post...I'm assuming you played with all or most of them, right? If I can't find where I wrote them, I'll check the ones that are currently on my Controller, as I haven't changed them.
Hey Walleye...where ya been? I've been waitin' on ya to bail me out on this post. :D ;D ;D :D
Fishin' ! ;) :D ;D
Quote from: Artmiester on August 23, 2007, 11:28:50 AM
Hey Tiny,
Thanks so much for your help! I've read all your posts on PIDs and your replies from Arcs. Unfortunately, I failed to write down the values already in the PIDs memory and screwed around with it before actually hooking it up and trying auto tune. Maybe you could pass them along if you still have them. Think my whole problem is setup values.
I'm reasonably sure they are wired correctly (I've lost count on how many times I checked them).
I believe your supposed to plug the PID directly into an AC wall outlet and the female end at the back of the tower so the generator's not involved on the DBS.
Experienced the same problem with the Thermocouples from Omega being reversed although they were per the diagram. Had the cheapies from Auber at first which worked OK. Both (K) type.
I've read about the 1amp fuse for the PID, do you think it's neccessary?
Never been able to bring up the temperature with the PID. The first few times I tried auto tuning I brought the temperature up from the generator and puck burner. Just before attempting auto tune I switched cords and watched the temp drop from 220F to 154F (temperature held by the puck burner). Each time I set up I had the thermocouple hanging in the center of the cabinet with a 2 brick load on the center with the puck burner going full time and temperature swings within 10F of 220F.
This A100 alternating with the 220F when you press the set button is a mystery. Also not sure wether the 220F needs reaffirmed or just set.
Anyway, a continuing thank you for all your help, Tim, and I eagerly await your next post.
I'll do the checking that I mentioned when I get home, but decided to tackle your question on the 1A fuse. If nothing else, it's cheap insurance.
Artmiester,
I do not have the Auber PID (mine is home-grown from scratch), so I cannot help you with set-up and parameters. If you are not getting voltage at A1/A2, then the PID is not calling for power.
You can always put 12 volts on A1/A2 to verify the relay is operating. Polarity is important.
Arcs_n_Sparks
Hey Art...just to let ya know, I got busy last night and didn't get a chance to get the defaults off of my PID for ya. I'll get it done for ya as soon as I can, and since I have Internet at home too, I'll just post it as I'm getting the info.
Sorry about that.
Thanks Arcs,
I made this reply yesterday but don't see it now.?? Tested the relays and they work fine.
Tiny Tim is sending the parameters... hope that wasn't lost too. I think I'll be back on track once I have it.
Thanks again!
Tiny, your latest post came in as I was thanking Arcs. No sweat, whenever you have time. Really appreciate it, and I eagerly await the list. 8) 8)
Okay, I gots some info for ya. Made myself stay outside and do it before I could come in to my comfy chair. The defaults are also listed in the manual, but here they are again. I even found out what the "A100" that you were speaking of means....by accident. I'll start with that one. When you press the "SET" button and release it, it toggles between "Axxx" and your set point to cook at, with the "Axxx" representing the percentage of output to make the heating element get to your setpoint.
Now for the parameter defaults.
ALM1...100
ALM2...50
Hy-1....9999
Hy-2....9999
Hy.......0.3
At.......3
I.........1000...(mine got the Autotune done and is now at 1583)
P.........500....(after Autotune is now 400)
d.........0.....(after Autotune is now 29)
Sn.......0....(says for "K" thermocouple in the manual, but I'm using a "K" and for some reason I have a 4 in this field which supposedly is for an "E" thermocouple)
dP.......0
P-SL....-100
P-SH...2500
Pb......0.0
OP-A..0
OUTL..0
OUTH..100
AL-P...17
COOL...10
Addr....1
bAud....4800...(mine says 9600 for some reason)
FILT....0
A-M....2
Lock....808
EP1.....nonE
EP2.....nonE
EP3.....nonE
EP4.....nonE
EP5.....nonE
EP6.....nonE
EP7.....nonE
EP8.....nonE
Hope this helps ya out.
Thanks so much, Tim. If I had written these down before I started fooling around wouldn't have to put you through all this. I'll put them to the test tomorrow with a couple of bricks and report back. There's got to be others out there that could really use this info. Hope they see it.
Apreciate it, brother! 8) ;D
Hey Tim, I noticed when setting up the PIDs to your list before attempting auto tune that the "t" (cycle rate) is missing and the default from the manual is (2) for an SSR. Just want to compare that to your setting. Also, on the "Addr" (communication address) line value of (1) for RS232 and RS485 model and on the "bAud" (communication baud rate) line value of (4800) for RS232 and RS485. Auber has sent SSR model RS1A40D25 on two seperate occasions when ordering from the link in robs project thread. Could this be the problem? What model do you have? I'm checking on the Auber site now and I'll get back.
Thanks again for the help. ??? ??? ;D
Quote from: Artmiester on August 25, 2007, 05:51:46 AM
Hey Tim, I noticed when setting up the PIDs to your list before attempting auto tune that the "t" (cycle rate) is missing and the default from the manual is (2) for an SSR. Just want to compare that to your setting. Also, on the "Addr" (communication address) line value of (1) for RS232 and RS485 model and on the "bAud" (communication baud rate) line value of (4800) for RS232 and RS485. Auber has sent SSR model RS1A40D25 on two seperate occasions when ordering from the link in robs project thread. Could this be the problem? What model do you have? I'm checking on the Auber site now and I'll get back.
Thanks again for the help. ??? ??? ;D
I'm not sure...back at work until noon, I'll try to remember to check it out when I get back home..would guess that mine is 2 on the "t", but I'll let ya know. My SSR is a 25 Amp...don't know the number, but it was bought from Auber, also from the link in Rob's directions.
Tim! Problem solved! :o When I was checking the SSRs out at Auber I started looking at the different PID models and noticed there were 2 seperate models. (#2352 for SSR output and #2342 for Relay output) I went back to my original order from Auber to check and the order was correct (2352) and then checked the wiring schem. on the PIDs and sure enough they were (2342)! They sent the wrong PIDs right from the get go. I'm contacting them now to make the exchange. Can't help feeling a little more than disgruntled but I guess you have to anylize every transaction these days for accuracy. Sorry to put you through all this for naught. I owe ya one (a very tall one). :-[ :-[ :-\
Quote from: Artmiester on August 15, 2007, 06:36:48 PM
Got home this afternoon and opened the boxes plugged them in and neither LED lights on the SSRs. Checked across L1 and TI and between A1 and A2 and everything seems OK there. I'm ordering them now...
Thanx, All
I'll keep ya posted...
Artmiester,
With the relay output unit, you would not have seen any voltage across A1/A2.....
Sorry Arcs,
When I saw your post for the check accross A1/A2 I had already closed and put them aside. Went back and looked at my notes for that value and saw 13.5v (the value I found on one of your posts) and thought that I had checked it. I mounted the PIDs with the labels facing away and using robs wiring diagram which is why I didn't see the model No. The boxes they came in had the right model No.s. I have the first pair on their way back to Auber now. Sorry to mislead you, this whole deal's been like a bad dream. :-[ :-[
Might I suggest to look at it as a learning opportunity. Had it worked out without a fuss, you wouldn't have the inimate knowledge or the values that will help you and others in the future.
Glad you have it figured out now, Art. I checked my note on the figures, and it looks like I have a 4 in the "t" area, even though I'm using the SSR instead of a relay. I didn't change it, so I guess they sent me a 2342 in a 2352 box. It works in my setup though. The good part about my error is I'm not confused about why it's showing I have an "E" thermocouple, as that field now would be a "0" meaning "K" thermocouple.