I know i saw a post somewhere about bacteria etc, how long is the accepted time to leave a pork butt out of the fridge to get to room temp before putting it into the bs. I don't want to kill my guests, most of them anyway[:D]
gotbbq (http://www.dow-mgc.org/smilies/Launch63.gif)
I pull my meat out of the refrigerate one hour before I place it in a preheated smoker. As a general rule, do not leave it in the danger zone (40 - 140 degrees F) for more than two hours. There are exceptions to this rule - I forgot the exact temperature range, I believe it's between 90 - 110 degrees, that is the optimal condition for most bacteria to grow; therefore you need to reduce the time food is exposed in those temperatures.
Well when I go to do a large piece of meat I allow it to go to room temp. (70-72 F) I've never had a problem. Of course I made sure the meat was not in question--like being almost to old!
Olds
(http://www.dow-mgc.org/smilies/Launch47.gif)
http://rminor.com
Calling JJC.....Is there really a "danger zone" if you cook it to 190F? Won't that type of heat cook off the potential boogies?
Kirk
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Hi Folks,
At the risk of stealing JJC's thunder I have had a chat with a Chartered Scientist in our Microbiology Department. (I work in a Pathology Department tho. Microbiology is not my area of expertise)
I have also had a look through one of their Reference Books: Food Poisoning and Food Hygiene: Sixth Edition: Hobbs and Roberts)
The following information may be of help:
*Pathogenic (harmful) bacteria grow best in the temperature range 15 - 45C (59 - 113F) except one nasty which grows well up to 47C (117F)
*Bacteria divide every 15 - 30 minutes at optimum temp.(37C/98.6F)
*Bacteria grow slowly at 45 - 50C (122F), but growth rate falls rapidly above 45C (113F)
* Only a few can grow at >50C. (122F)
* Non sporing cells of food poisoning bacteria are killed at temps >60C (140F) after exposure for 10 - 30 minutes or more at that temp, dependant on type. The longer the exposure the higher the degree of destruction.
* <15C (59F) grow at reduced rate.
* <7C (45F) cease to multiply but do not die.
* extreme cold does not kill all bacteria.
* when cooling cooked meat cool to less than 7C (45F) within 1.5 hours.
* food poisoning occurs when large numbers of bacteria (or spores) survive, either directly or indirectly (toxin production)
* Bacteria that cause food poisoning will be invisible, the appearance, smell and taste of the food is generally unaltered.
* Smoking will only preserve the outside of the meat, not internally.
* Meats that are rolled (e.g brisket) carry additional risk, may be contaminated by handling then contamination rolled to cente of joint and internal temperature does not meet that required to kill contamination.
Just a last thought, if you think of a single bacteria at time zero, under optimum condition 7 hours later you will have 2,097,152 of the little blighters. But at two hours at optimim temperature only 64, this is based on them doubling every 20 minutes!
Hope this is of some help!
Manxman.
Maximan;
Good information.
Just want to add that some types of food borne bacteria produce spores and toxins that survive the high temperatures of cooking. If these types of bacteria exist is sufficient numbers prior to cooking, it doesn't matter if you cook the meat to an internal temperature of 190 degrees F., you can become ill due to improper handling of food prior to cooking.
I have to find the source that I referred to in my earlier post - <i>"are exceptions to this rule - I forgot the exact temperature range, I believe it's between 90 - 110 degrees, that is the optimal condition for most bacteria to grow;"</i>
Hi Habanero Smoker,
Very true, some spores can be boiled for hours and will survice, there are exceptions to every rule. The main thing is to keep the bacteria concentration low by adhering to optimum processing conditions so there are not enough to cause poisoning.
The optimum temperature for bacterial growth is 37C or 98.6F, normal human body temperature. (there's a coincidence!)
Much of the information I posted will be old hat to the more experienced member but some of the newer ones may benefit.
Basic hygiene will sort most issues such as washing hands thoroughly or wearing disposable gloves when applying rubs, keeping all equipment clean and avoiding cross contamination (e.g raw meat to cooked meat.
Getting meat from a reputable source, bringing meat to room temperature (particularly in hot ambient temperatures climes) for the least amount of time possible, cooling rapidly post cooking and monitoring during the cooking process will sort the vast majority of issue - most of it is just a common sense approach.
The majority of the examples quoted in the book I had a look are failures in this common sense approach, examples include failure to wash hands after coming out of the toilet, leaving cooked food overnight at room temperature because there was no room in the refridgerator, using very large pieces of meat and cross contamination.
Occasionally people can be just plain unlucky due to circumstances beyond their control but most are within our control, however how many people have made themselves ill using a B.S, very few I suspect.
Something we need to be aware of and have a bit of basic knowledge but in most instances it will be (or become) second nature.
One or two nasty's that thrive without oxygen such as botulism, something I need to be aware of now I am getting a vacuum sealer!!!
Manxman.
Hi Manx and Habanero,
Both of you are spot-on with your advice. Sorry I couldn't chime in sooner, but we're on the middle of a busy stretch at work right now and I'm trying to get everything squared away before I take a much anticipated vacation!
Most sources extend the "danger zone" all the way to 140F, rather than 117 or 122F, to cover that last 1-2% of possible bacteria. If you look at the Curing and Brining piece in Olds' FAQ board it will have very similar info what MM is stating. Nothing ilustrates the reason for keeping food out of the danger zone than Manx' 2hr vs. 7hr. scenario!
P.S. to Manxman--what do you do in the Path Dept.? I have many fond memories of Pathology . . . of course, the problem with pathologists is that they know everything, only it's too late . . .
John
Newton MA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One or two nasty's that thrive without oxygen such as botulism, something I need to be aware of now I am getting a vacuum sealer!!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The danger with these bugs is not that it will make you sick, it will kill you! Good sanitation and food handling a must!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/xcelsmoke/FREEGIF.gif)
<font size="4"><b>Doug</b></font id="size4">
Manxman,
Congrats on your new star! [:D]
John
Newton MA
Manxman,
I E-mailed you concern this information. Have your recieved it?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">. . . of course, the problem with pathologisdts is that they know everything, only it's too late . . .
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EDIT Now JJC I thought we talked about you being nice to folks... [^]
Olds
(http://www.dow-mgc.org/smilies/Launch47.gif)
http://rminor.com
Hi JJC and Oldman,
JJC.... Haematology is my area, did about 6 months Microbiology during my training many years ago but it never really interested me the way Haematology does.
Consequently, all of our patients are still in the land of the living! (at least for the timebeing![;)]) Having nothing to do with the morbid anatomy side of the laboratory.
Where are you off to on vacation?
Oldman.... not had a chance to look at my home emails recently but will have the opportunity to check them this evening, will get back to you on that one. [:)]
cheers folks,
Manxman.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JJC</i>
<br />
I have many fond memories of Pathology . . . of course, the problem with pathologisdts is that they know everything, only it's too late . . .
John
Newton MA
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John,
I have to remember this one. You never know when this joke may come in handy!
Hey guys. Can we go back to Kirk's question? If you cook something to 190, won't it kill anything in the meat regardless of how much of it is in there? Did I miss something?
Hi Mamba,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Non sporing cells of food poisoning bacteria are killed at temps >60C (140F) after exposure for 10 - 30 minutes or more at that temp, dependant on type. The longer the exposure the higher the degree of destruction. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The answer to Chez's original question is that in most instances.... yes!
However there are always exceptions (e.g spores)as science is rarely black and white, there are always exceptions to the rule! What I was trying to impart was that the cooking is only one part, albeit a very important part, of a bigger picture.
I did'nt want anyone to take any reply out of context.
Experiments have shown that slow low temp cooking holds no greater hazard than convential cooking providing manufacturers instructions are followed and all aspects of the process controlled.
Manxman.
Hi Olds,
Just read your email, hopefully you have got my reply.
Manxman.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by manxman</i>
<br />Hi Mamba,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Non sporing cells of food poisoning bacteria are killed at temps >60C (140F) after exposure for 10 - 30 minutes or more at that temp, dependant on type. The longer the exposure the higher the degree of destruction. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The answer to Chez's original question is that in most instances.... yes!
However there are always exceptions (e.g spores)as science is rarely black and white, there are always exceptions to the rule! What I was trying to impart was that the cooking is only one part, albeit a very important part, of a bigger picture.
I did'nt want anyone to take any reply out of context.
Experiments have shown that slow low temp cooking holds no greater hazard than convential cooking providing manufacturers instructions are followed and all aspects of the process controlled.
Manxman.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Manxman,
I was not quite comfortable with this answer. Today while I was at the Culinary Institute of America (CIA), I thought I would get one more perspective on this matter. I posed Kirk's scenario to the chef, using a 3-4 hour example of meat/food being left in temperatures at which bacteria grow. He stated that this was not a good procedure to practice. Cooking the meat over 140 degrees F for a long enough period of time, will that kill all bacteria? Most likely. Is the food safe to eat? You are taking a risk.
For this example, he broke it down into two types of food borne illness; 1) Food Infection and 2) Food Toxicity. Food Infection is caused by digesting live bacteria and/or spores. The second, Food Toxicity, is caused toxins that are a waste byproduct of the growth of certain bacteria. Not all toxins are destroyed by high temperature, and when there are sufficient amount of toxins on the meat, this can cause illness after being digested. This type of food poisoning is less harmful, with the exception of Clostridium botulinum (Botulism). Though you would not need to be treated as you would if you got a severe case of Food Infection, it could make you and your guest ill.
Manx & Habs,
Thanks! Between your two answers, I seem to understand it a lot better.[8D]
Kirk
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Hi Habs,
Which bit of what I posted does'nt sit easy with you, I have the impression I may have been taken out of context which is what I wanted to avoid in the first place, if so I apologise for any confusion. [:D][:D]
On reading through your post and the information from the (other) CIA I suspect we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.
I plan to expand on spores and toxins a bit in the article Oldman asked me to put together. I have also unearthed some information about recommended internal cooking temperatures for different meats. (beef, pork, chicken etc.)
I am not and never have advocated using 140F as a minimum temperature adequate for cooking food, 160F to 170F is the minimum for cooking whilst 145F has been proved to be safe to hold cooked food prior to processing. (eating, chilling etc. etc.)
Slow cookers appear to operate at temperatures around 170F and above.
One thing though, I would never contemplate leaving food for 3 - 4 hours in the "danger zone" for bacterial growth which most groups recommend is up to 140F.
Every recommendation I have seen by various US and UK food safety groups say 1.5 to 2 hours maximum.
It gets back to that at time zero and starting with a single bacteria, at two hours you have 64 bacteria, at 3 - 4 hours you have between 512 and 4096 and 2097152 at 7 hours, given optimum growing conditions.
Manxman.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by manxman</i>
<br />
The answer to Chez's original question is that in most instances.... yes!
Manxman.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I thought we were on the same page. What made me uncomfortable about the post was the above statement. Maybe its just me, but since there was no <u>clear</u> mention of any risk, it sounded as if it was absolutely safe to eat food that had been at a temperature for bacterial growth for more time then is recommended by the FDA, as long as it was cooked to a high enough temperature. Maybe it's the way I interpreted what you posted.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by manxman</i>
<br />Hi Habs,
....One thing though, I would never suggest leaving food for 3 - 4 hours in the danger zone for bacterial growth which most groups recommend is up to 140F. Every recommendation I have seen by various US and UK food safety groups say 1.5 to 2 hours maximum.
Manxman.
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You have cleared that up for me, with your last post.
I was paraphrasing what he was stating. The 140 degree temperature was used by the chef as a minimum temperature that kills bacteria - explaining that the temperature would have to be held for some time to kill all bacteria. He was addressing his comments to a group of people, which the CIA calls "Food Enthusiasts" (I believe that is code for "Wanna Be Chef"[:D]. I am sure if he was in his other role of Educator for future chefs, he would have used other examples, and been more thorough. Also, it was not a subject that most of the group wanted to discuss prior to cooking their own lunch.[:D][:D]
Hi Habs,
Yeah, think we are singing off the same hymn sheet, and much better to clear up any interpretation issues given the subject topic!! [:D][:D]
At least if this discussion and information saves one person from making them or their family unwell then it has served a purpose!! [:D][:D]
Just hope it does'nt make people worry unnecessarily, it seems you are far more likely to pick up something eating out than cooking at home by whatever means.
Manxman.
I have a question for all you food saftey gurus,
Is there any danger in taking a frozen vaccuum sealed bag of meat,like pulled pork,and putting it in a pot of boiling water to re-heat while it's still sealed? Assuming of coarse that everything was handled properly prior to freezing.
<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bassman</i>
<br />I have a question for all you food saftey gurus,
Is there any danger in taking a frozen vaccuum sealed bag of meat,like pulled pork,and putting it in a pot of boiling water to re-heat while it's still sealed? <font color="green">Assuming of coarse that everything was handled properly prior to freezing.</font id="green">
<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
None that I can see. I vacuum seal in small portions, so that I can reheat by placing the bags in boiling water. Most food safety sites state to reheat to 165 F., but I don't test the temperature when I reheat, unless I am having guests [:D]
What happened to the old days when you could have a medium rare steak and plate full of smoked shrimp[?][?]
Addicted to Smokin[:p][:p][:p]
DanR
Fort St. John BC
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What happened to the old days when you could have a medium rare steak and plate full of smoked shrimp[?][?][?]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Nothing!! There are still here with this Oldman~~!
Olds
(http://www.dow-mgc.org/smilies/Launch47.gif)
http://rminor.com
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Crazy Canuck</i>
<br />What happened to the old days when you could have a medium rare steak and plate full of smoked shrimp[?][?]
Addicted to Smokin[:p][:p][:p]
DanR
Fort St. John BC
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Those days are still here![:D][:D]
Nothing wrong with a medium rare steak.
Hiya,
I agree with Habanero Smoker, as long as it was processed properly prior to freezing and reheated adequately there should be no problems.
Now I have a vacuum sealer I have done this several times including food for my two boys aged 7 and 4, certainly would'nt take a chance with them if I thought there was a risk!
Manxman.
Thanks Habanero & Manxman,
I appreciate the info!!![:)]
<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>