OK so I took a 6.5 lb flat brisket (I know, that is all I could find! it did have a decent fat ribbon on it though) and smothered it with a mix of paprika, chili powder, garlic powder and cayenne. Then I smoked it in my OBS using a mix of mesquite (just a few), jim beam (just a few) and pecan (mostly). I ran it for 4.5 hours at 200 degrees with the vents mostly open. Now it is in the house oven at 220 degrees covered in foil with an apple juice bath underneath. It has been in the house oven for 1.5 hours now.
My question is how long should I cook at 220 degrees in the house oven and how long to FTC? And just to clarify, after the oven time just wrap the brisket in foil, wrap the foil package in a bath towel and then place the entire package in an ice free cooler?
It is 1pm here in CO...am I eating this brisket for dinner tonight?
Thanks! I am looking forward to some responses.
Kevin
The answer to your question is "when it is done"
What time did you start ?
What is the internal temperature of the brisket now ?
Ideally you want the internal temp around 190F or higher.
FTC is optional if you are up against a time deadline - but you have the process right. I would make sure the cooler is at least room temp.
OK I started smoking at 7am this am...smoked for 4.5 hours until 1130am...then put the brisket into the oven at 1130am..it is now 1pm.
I don't have a meat thermometer....but it's on my shopping list for Target next time I go.
For me it takes around 2 hr per lb but thats just a ball park time frame to start checkin the IT and gettin the other stuff ready.
You should always go by the Internal Temp when cookin and like FLB stated your IT should be 185 to 190 for slicing. Also as FLB stated you dont really need to FTC but you should let the brisket rest, tented, on the cuttin board for at least 20 min before slicing, that way the juices can soak back into the meat.
With out a thermometer you can do the fork test, stick a fork in it and twist. If you can twist and pull off some meat with out a battle its done.
OK so if it takes 2 hours per lb in the oven looks like this will be tomorrow's dinner! No problem (I guess)...
Should I take it out of the oven now and put it in around midnight tonight instead? Cook at 220 degrees overnight then FTC until tomorrow afternoon? Is this an option?
I would keep cookin it.
If you started at 7 am and the brisket is 6.5 lb it should be done around 8 pm but I would stick a fork in it (now you see where the saying came from?) around 7 pm to see how tender it is. Dont try to rush it or it will be dry and tuff but you could turn the temp up to 250 now that you have it in a boat in the oven.
If you turn up the heat I would check it around 6 pm and stick a fork in it.
Quote from: kewilliam on February 17, 2010, 12:50:00 PMShould I take it out of the oven now and put it in around midnight tonight instead? Cook at 220 degrees overnight then FTC until tomorrow afternoon? Is this an option?
Agree with OU. In general, most people don't like to interrupt a cook once started. Better to finish what you've started and reheat later. Restarting an interrupted cook makes the temp harder to track properly plus, without knowing your IT (or knowing the meat is done by other means), you run a risk of bad juju (little germy things that are smarter than we are). Not necessarily a big risk with brisket but still there.
I'd either go get a meat thermometer now (borrow from a neighbor?) or try the fork test. Then you'll know without too much "should I/could I."
Neighbors are out of town and I'm 30 miles from a store that sells a meat thermometer so I guess I'll just stick a fork in it at 6pm..I just cranked it up to 250 dgrees...sure smells good!
You've gotten a lot of thought out, enlightened wisdom on this subject from some bright folks. I would not be surprised if there is a small explosion in the Islands visible from outer space due to the brain strain. :D
Good luck and slow smoking,
Pachanga
The worst thing you'll have if you pull it out before it's done is it will be tough.
Also save the juices from the boat, put in the fridge until the fat becomes solid, discard the fat and you will have some killer beef stock. If you do have to reheat pour some of this black gold over the brisket wrap in foil and cook till the IT hits 160
If you like taters and gravy this black gold will make some of the best gravy you have ever had, just make it like you would any other time.
So I cranked the heat up 250 degrees around 230pm, did the fork test at 630pm (still not quite done) then got hungry so I pulled it out at 745pm and FTC'd for 30 minutes until 815pm.
The brisket was good not great...it was definitely NOT tough but it was fairly dry. I thought it could have used a tad more smokey flavor as well...
Any thoughts on how to keep the meat from drying out? I suppose getting a packer cut instead of a flat cut would be step #1.
I think I know how to give the brisket more smokey flavor!
Thanks for all the help!
Kevin
For bein dry the first thing to look at is how much of a fat cap the brisket had on it, try to get about 1/4"
With the brisket in a foil boat and some apple juice to steam it I would have thunk it wouldnt have dried out that much.
Fat, fat, fat!
After trimming too much fat off my packers I take what I trimmed off and place it where it is thin on the rest of the brisket.
Never boated a brisket....gone naked all the time.
Never had one dry eather.
I DO FTC for at least 2 hours with a splash of what ever I'm drinking.
I think that help a bunch!
Getting the right cut of the brisket (Packer's Cut) will help next time you do brisket. Before I got onto the forum I had been buying trimmed flats from the supermarket an had the same problem. I know brisket was great but mine always turned out ok. But with help from everyone on the forum and a packers cut brisket from the butcher i successfully smoke a great brisket. Try it again after you do a little more research and you wont be disappointed...
Ya, do it again, do it again. ;D
I start the brisket the night before.
When the smoke time is done, dump the drip pan refill with HOT water, put a 8" x 11" foil pan, half full with room temp beer, on the rack under the rack the brisket is on and go to bed.
QuoteWhen the smoke time is done, dump the drip pan refill with HOT water, put a 8" x 11" foil pan, half full with room temp beer, on the rack under the rack the brisket is on and go to bed.
Beer makes
EVERTHING better ;)
Quote from: SnellySmokesEm on February 18, 2010, 10:17:58 AM
QuoteWhen the smoke time is done, dump the drip pan refill with HOT water, put a 8" x 11" foil pan, half full with room temp beer, on the rack under the rack the brisket is on and go to bed.
Beer makes EVERTHING better ;)
You got that right, along with a little help from my friend JD
QuoteYou got that right, along with a little help from my friend JD
Now lets not leave out our friend Mr. Beam. We would not want to upset anyone.
Not there in Co (darn it) so just my Bubba Gump Guesstimating.
12.75 hours on a 6.5 flat is likely - very likely way toooooooooooooo long - especially the 5.25 hours wrapped up in foil at 250. So the combination of the long cook time and it being a flat (lean) contributed to the dryness. Just remember, you can boil a piece a meat too long and it can get dry also - sounds illogical, but it happens.
The lack of smokiness was probably due to the time in the foil and the apple juice.
First most of my briskets, if you can maintain 225 are done in 1 to 1.5 hours per pound. Last Sept. did 9 in a trailer mounted smoking rotisserie (theory is that all rotate through all zones of the cooker therefore theoretically all are cooked at same temp). All were 11 to 12 pounds. But they started being done from 11 hours out to about 16 or maybe it was 18 hours. I was having problems keeping temp steady as I fell asleep and did not set my alarm correctly - but still 1 hour to almost 1.5 hours per pound.
Why was your meat dry when, by seeming simple logic, it should be moist - what with the foil and the apple juice. Most meats are roughly 75% water, 20% protein, and 5% fat, carbohydrates, and assorted proteins. Something made up of mostly water, cooked in water should be moist - right! However, it doesn't work out that way - the "moistness" we desire is due to fat and collagen.
Juiciness and tenderness are influenced by the cut of meat you choose and how long the meat is cooked. The more a muscle is used, the stronger, and therefore tougher, the cut of meat will be - but thankfully the more fat and collagen it contains. And because of the greater amount of collagen and lubricating fat in these cuts (think butts, shoulders, briskets, chucks) the more flavorful they are – but to be edible you must tenderize them before they finish cooking. And that is why "low-n-slow" is our mantra. Let me explain what likely happened and where your meat likely dried out in your cook.
When you put the brisket in the foil and in the oven - that is the point you technically stopped "barbecuing" and started braising. Both are low-n-slow methods of cooking but with a difference - one is a dry method and the other a wet method. A common definition of braising is - a method for cooking less tender cuts of meat by browning, covering and cooking meat in a small amount of liquid at a low temperature for a long period of time.
Muscle (meat) is a wonderful piece of natural engineering. It is both strong and flexible at the same time. It consists of bundles of fibers held together with a natural glue, mostly collagen, and lubricated with pads of fat. Heat basically screws up this engineering - it bursts the cell walls and disrupts the delicate chemistry. At about 130 deg F. the flexible strands of protein making up the muscle fibers shrink and tangle, squeezing out the lubricating (and tasty) fluids. As the temperature increases these tangles get tighter and firmer. Your meat gets smaller and tougher. The lubricating and flavorful juices separate from the tough dry meat. (BTW, these juices in the old days were called the "osmazome". Brillat Savarin described the juices as "The soul of the meat.")
Braising uses wet heat, but another mechanism comes into play. The collagen that holds the muscle together dissolves slowly and the fat slowly melts. This happens in both dry and wet cooking and is a marvelous thing. With long, slow cooking, the collagen melts and turns to soft, succulent gelatin, providing the juiciness to tough cuts of meat. This however is a comparatively slow process. If you cook it long enough for all of the collagen to turn to gelatin, and hot enough for the contraction of the meat to squeeze out the liquid, you have just the cooked meat fibers left. If they have been overcooked, you are left with irretrievably dry and stringy meat, even if it is swimming in boiling liquid.
One problem with the braising is that many cooks don't realize they are actually boiling the meat in steam. And by sealing it up, you are likely contributing to overcooking. In an oven at 250 or 300, the liquid will start to boil and the resulting steam heats the meat to a very high temperature compared to the same temperature of dry heat.
You may, at this point, be scratching your head. We cook steaks over a 400+ degree fire and roast turkeys at 375 degrees. So why is boiling at 212 degrees different? First liquid and or steam is far more effective at transmitting heat than hot air. That is not necessarily a bad thing, just something you have to keep in mind. Think about it. Cook a chuck in a smoker at 225 and it takes hours to get tender. But cut the chuck up into cubes and throw in a stew and it is tender in possibly minutes – certainly not hours – why, because the transfer of heat was faster. But cook it too long and that same meat is dry. Ever wonder why those chunks of chicken (at least I hope it is chicken) in canned chicken noodle soup are so dry even if they are in liquid – overcooked!
One tip about using foil (the so-called "Texas Crutch), leave a little gap in the seal so some steam can escape. Having a somewhat closed system, the liquid will quickly reach boiling point (212) and quickly over-cook the meat. But by allowing steam to escape the temperature of the liquid is kept down to around maybe 160 to 170 degrees - even in a 250 degree oven. The liquid will simmer and not boil producing a hopefully more tender result.
Your brisket was probably approaching done when you kicked it up to 250. The five hours in the sealed steam bath left it overcooked. As you probably expect, a monitoring thermometer would have let you known this. An important thing to remember in barbecuing the meat is done when IT is done. You cannot consistently guess at doneness by going by time only – you have to confirm by IT and tenderness testing. It ended up you probably tested after the piece was overcooked. Oh and also remember, no amount of FTC will revive an overcooked piece of meat.
The so-called packer cut of brisket will help out tremendously - much more forgiving.
Once again, proof positive that Caney really does have his doctorate. We also know that his dissertation was written on great Q'ing.
Nice information. Very nice.
And very well written.
Good luck and slow smoking,
Pachanga
Great post caneyscud. This answered a question I have had but never asked. Since my last pork butt smoke I wondered how a smoked butt could be more juicy and tender than one cooked in a crock pot. I have cooked many buts in crock pots and had great success. But after researching on the forum and applying those techniques in my last smoke I BBQ'd the most moist and tender pork butt I have ever had. I could not believe I had smoked the butt and it was more tender and juicy than I had ever cooked in a crock pot. Thanks for the great explanation!