I'm stuck at a customers place yesterday and pizza was the menu and I was the cook. I finally get out of there and head home hours late. I grab a dry mix crust and whoop it out. Cover the bowl for a rest. Didn't have time to make proper crust >:( I fire up the oven and put it on convention bake... sprinkle a little corn meal on the peal and spread the crust out... put the sauce cheese and toppings on. I give the peal a shake to make sure the crust is free... c**p it's stuck! So I fight that for a bit then finally get it loose and sling it into the oven on the stone a few degrees early just so it won't stick on the peal again. Wife hollers a few minutes later that the pizza is done she can smell it. I grab the peal and c**p it's stuck to the stone! I fight it off of there and am not a happy camper at this point as the pizza looks like it was slung against the wall and pealed off then put on the plate... so I go to my beer cave to rest for a few minutes. I ate some anyway.
Mistakes
Not enough time to do it right
Convection instead of Conventional (stone was cold)
Not enough corn meal on the peal
Not tossing it in the trash and making a peanut butter and sugar sandwich...
Not looking under the crust to see if it is really done
Using crust in a bag instead of real crust
She did eat all of her half...
I did find a good recipe for pizza crust from Alton Brown that I'm going to try. I've put it on my recipe database at JT's place. He says you can keep it up to a week in the fridge... Scott says he use to get frozen pizza crust... I wonder if you can freeze that recipe too? Anyone who knows if you can take a look and let me know if I can freeze the dough that would be great.
Thanks
JT
First mistake, didn't go to beer cave first! :D
Man don't you hate it when something like that happens? I've done something like that a million times and think "now why did I even try that?"
That kinda day is a Day you keep a DiGiorno Pizza in the Freezer. ;D
We don't get Homemade Pizza Crust at our house.
My wife instead buys "Mama Mary's" premade Crust (Walmart carries this)
They come in 3 or 4 different kinds and they stay good for a while.
We use Thin & Crispy and Whole Wheat.
They are pretty good.
Cholesterol Free and Made with Honey! ;D
JT,
You can freeze the crust. Prep it like you would to let it rise - spray it or roll it in oil and wrap in plastic wrap. When you take it out of the freezer take it out of plastic wrap & put in bowl or plastic bag (oil the ball again first) and let rise. I usually throw it in the fridge to thaw out.
I have read that you should use a little more yeast if you are going to freeze to compensate for any that dies off in the freezer. I haven't done this alot but I use my regular crust without the added yeast and it works fine.
Read the reviews on Alton's crust recipe - I remember reading that one of his recipe's was really salty. You may want to cut back a bit.
Deb
Quote from: classicrockgriller on May 28, 2010, 02:00:43 PM
That kinda day is a Day you keep a DiGiorno Pizza in the Freezer. ;D
My fall back is a box of kraft macaroni and cheese and maybe some pizza rolls. I like to experiment in the kitchen, I've only ever had to go to the mac and cheese one time. I keep thinking I should build a box with glass I can break on the front to add to the sense of emergency.
Quote from: deb415611 on May 28, 2010, 02:37:35 PM
JT,
You can freeze the crust. Prep it like you would to let it rise - spray it or roll it in oil and wrap in plastic wrap. When you take it out of the freezer take it out of plastic wrap & put in bowl or plastic bag (oil the ball again first) and let rise. I usually throw it in the fridge to thaw out.
I have read that you should use a little more yeast if you are going to freeze to compensate for any that dies off in the freezer. I haven't done this alot but I use my regular crust without the added yeast and it works fine.
Read the reviews on Alton's crust recipe - I remember reading that one of his recipe's was really salty. You may want to cut back a bit.
Deb
Thanks again Deb,
Do you have a favorite crust recipe?
John
BJT, One thing I learned was to put the crust onto a piece of parchment. It never sticks to the peal or the stone. I think Deb gave me that tip. I do not use corn meal anymore.
I know I'm not much help here. I don't bake pizza, except for the frozen ones. I did see somewhere that the cornmeal can burn and there's an alternative. Just can't think of it. Maybe tapioca?
Here is a link with the recipes that I use http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=8596.0 It's an old link but I still make the same ones.
Pens is right, I gave him the parchment idea. I hate cleaning cornmeal etc out of my oven and use parchment. It doesn't burn, gets dark & brittle if any is not covered with pizza but have never had it ignite.
Here are a few that I have done:
http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=8147.0
http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=8952.0 - this one has the recipe & I don't think it's in the link above
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3904.msg32795.html#msg32795
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27615.html#msg27615
WOW! Thanks for all the links Deb. I like the one "from the book" then scroll down to "my way" ;D
The percentages of the ingredients are a percentage of the flour weight I assume.
I gotta get on the band wagon for pizza dough.
Does the bottom get as done when you use the parchment paper?
Thanks again
John
After hours of reading all the links I tried a middle of the road dough. I whooped it up for 15 minutes the oiled and covered and put in the fridge overnight. I pulled one out when I got home and let it warm up. I pulled the dough out and started to work it and WAM it got stuck together. I tried to flatten it out and it was like a giant rubber band. After some hand to hand combat I got it flatter and threw some sauce and peperoni on it and tossed it in the oven. Next I pulled the cold one out and floured it down a bit and worked it as flat as I could. This one came out much better but I'm still missing some technique when it comes to the dough. I used parchment paper on both and I'm sold on that idea.
We like a thin crust pizza. Anyone have any hints or tips on getting that?
This is the ingredients list that I used.
Flour (100%): 386.89 g King Author Bread Flour
Water (63%): 243.74 g
IDY (.25%): 0.97 g
Salt (1.5%): 5.8 g
Sugar (1%): 3.87 g
Total (165.75%): 641.26 g
Single Ball: 320.63 g
Thanks
John
Tip 1 - don't whoop it up so much. ;D
When shaping if you find yourself fighting the dough set it aside for 5-10 minutes to let it relax, then proceed. If the gluten is highly developed you may need to work in stages 2-3 times.
What you're fighting is gluten, that's the rubber band. Two things promote the development of gluten: (1) mechanical mixing (more = more gluten); (2) time , again longer time means more gluten.
Your recipe looks good using KA Bread Flour, which has a solid protein content (12.7%), meaning it will easily develop gluten. Here is what I would suggest for mixing:
1. combine flour, water, salt and sugar (although I don't think you need it with a 24 hour retarded rise) and mix until it just comes together into a shaggy mass. Cover and let sit at room temp for 10-20 min's.
2. after the rest add the yeast and mix -- if mixing in a Kitchen Aid or similar mixer use the 2nd speed for ~2 min's and no more, If mixing by hand it will probably take a couple of minutes longer - go until just smooth and all yeast has been incorporated. You don't want an elastic dough, just a thoroughly mixed one.
3. Place in a large lightly oiled bowl, drizzle a few drops of EVOO, turn to coat. Cover the bowl and place immediately in the refrigerator for up to 24 hrs. If keeping more than 24 hrs, degas at the halfway point by gently lifting the sides and flattening –don't go punching or kneading, be gentle.
When you are ready to proceed remove from the fridge and allow to come to room temp for ~ 2hrs. Then divide and rest the balls for ~ 1-2 hrs. Then shape.
BLSH,
Thanks so much for the info. Now I have something to work with.
On step 1 by "it" do you mean the sugar?
And yes I'm using a Kitchen Aid Mixer.
When shaping the dough I'm guessing from my experience the other day plenty of flour on the table.
Just use a rolling pin or shape it by hand then roll it to get it thin?
I think I'm starting to understand the beast a bit more ;D
I see we think similar as I "love" animals too.
JT
BJT,
Yes, by "it" I mean sugar.
Sine you're using a KA mixer, I suggest you put the water, salt, and sugar in the bowl, with the dough hook attached set speed = 1 and steadily add the flour in ~ 1/2 cup increments until it is all in. That will probably take about 2 min's. At about the time you're done with that you should have the shaggy ball. Stop, cover and let rest (leave the hook in the bowl). When you resume use the dough hook in your hand to fold in the yeast, then mix on speed 2 for ~ 2 - 2.5 mins. The you should be done.
For shaping I do by hand on a granite counter top that has been floured, but not more than is needed. I do it by flattening the ball, then working with my fingertips pressing down starting near the edge (leave ~ 1/2 " for border) and rotating as I go working toward the center.
Question - how thin is thin and how big are you shooting for (diameter). from your dough ball weight I am guessing ~ 12", so not paper or cracker thin, but traditional Napolenta thin?
I'm shooting for 12"-14" about 1/8" thick I think. Not paper thin kinda like the Pizza Hut thin crust thickness.
So if I mix for 15 minutes and let it set for 24 hours I get too much gluten ;D
Thanks again for the information... it is starting to come together in my mind now.
John
I've got this thread all printed out and am ready for another try tonight. If it turns out nice I'll post some pics of the pies tomorrow when I make them. I can't wait... ;D
JT
Be kind and gentle with your dough. Treat it as if it were a friend. Abuse it and it will become your enemy.
BLSH,
Time for me to leave the dark side with pizza dough ;D
JT
Ok, Houston we are making progress here. Last nights pizza was the best I ever made. I'm closer than I've ever been to making a good pizza. My wife and MIL loved it. I feel there is some room for improvement in the dough making process and enlightenment on my end. ;D
After letting the dough sit on the counter a couple of hours I gently rolled the dough out of the bowl onto a floured counter top and split it into two pieces then gently rolled the pieces into a ball then let them rest for a couple of hours.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Cooking/Pizza/Pizza01.jpg)
Then I tried as gently as possible to form the pizza crust... The second one came out better, I guess it was from all the experience I had on the first one.
First One
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Cooking/Pizza/Pizza02.jpg)
Second One
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Cooking/Pizza/Pizza03.jpg)
After cooking them I determined by empirical evidence that the rear of my oven on bake is hotter than the front when set to 500F.
My Pizza
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Cooking/Pizza/Pizza04.jpg)
The Wife's and MIL's Pizza
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Cooking/Pizza/Pizza05.jpg)
Mine was a bit more chewy than the other one for some reason... Any clues on what might have caused this? I think I had to work mine a bit more as I developed a technique for spreading the dough out. As you can see the first one came out kinda square and the second one came out round like a pizza!
Thanks for all your help
John
Looks good enough for breakfast!
Maybe you need to install a couple of your fan kits in the kitchen oven.. ;D
Looking real good there , BigJohn! I'd say you basically got it.
As far as the chewier goes, that could be a lot of things, from handling/shaping to baking.We can forget dough differences since they were from the same batch and shaped very close in time to each other. Shaping can have an influence - rough it up and it will tend to develop more gluten and be chewier as a result. Also thickness - if yours was a bit thicker, then it will be slightly less baked in the core and that will likely leave you a bit chewier. Finally, baking, did you bake them for the same length of time or was it eye the crust/top for doneness and pull when it was done as you judged visually? If the latter I would guess yours was baked first?
Yes it was by eye ball and lift up the crust and look at the bottom... and gee wiz your good yes mine was baked first... How did you tell? So should I set a timer and go by that?
Thanks
John
No, don't set a timer - eyeball works better. But, as first yours likely saw a higher initial temp and baked quicker. That means the crust gets done faster leaving the interior a bit less done than the second pizza to get the same degree of browning on the crust. So you get crust done, and a chewier center on the first one. Depending on what you want, there are multiple solutions -for crisper crust next time try 475 °F and allow a bit more baking time. Second, allow a recovery reheat between the first and 2nd - maybe 15 minutes and the they should be close to the same.
edit -
I meant to include this earlier. Since you're using KA flour you might try a batch with their all purpose flour. KA tends to run about 1% higher in protein than other major brands, which means they develop gluten more easily. The AP is already at 11.7%, where Gold Medal AP (bleached) runs about 10.5% and the GM bread flour runs 12.1%. For the size "pies" you're making I think the KA AP would do a good job, be easier to handle, and be a little less chewy.
A second after thought is, as you get more comfortable handling dough and shaping, to up the water content. If you want to try that do it in small amounts, like 10 grams (~1Tbl) at a time. That will boost your hydration level about 2.5 percentage points, which will leave your dough more extensible vs. elastic (that's the ever present tradeoff -extensibility vs. elasticity). It will stretch more easily (that can be a bit of a challenge if taken to an extreme), but will give more oven spring when put in the oven (more open. less dense and chewy interior). If you want to try that I would suggest making two batches of dough and exactly the same pizza side-by-side changing nothing but the water amount and compare.
John,
Those look great!!
Deb
BLSH,
Thanks for all the tips and help. You have given me a lot to chew on (pun intended) and look forward to understanding this beast a lot better.
Deb,
Thanks, I hope to be up to your standards one day for pizza. I have fun making it and trying to find the correct procedures and mixtures to give me the pie I (and the wife and MIL) really like.
John