Hi All.
After curing and smoking fish for a while I thought I will have a go at curing and smoking some bacon. The recipes on here are brilliant and can't wait to give them a go.
I understand the importance of the dry cure ratio with nitrites as compared to just using salt but where I am getting a bit confused is the IT point.
A lot of recipes state an IT of 150 deg f for bacon (belly bacon) at this temperature will it be fully cooked? I am looking for an IT which will allow me to slice, freeze then fry up in the pan later. Or do I just cold smoke it?
Another point on Canadian Ham at an IT of 150 deg f once cooled can you eat it straight from the fridge without reheating?
I am busy curing some Canadian Ham and bacon at present so your information will be greatly greatly appreciated.
I will let you know how I get on.
Thanks in anticipation.
I prefer 140-142 for a raw and need to be fried. I like 150-154 if I can fry or choose to eat cold. My self I always do 150-152 seems to be wifes favorite. 152 is safe for all cured pork for me. Even Canadian Bacon. LOL
I agree with viper, I take my belly bacon into the 140's, since I am always going to fry it anyway.
Canadian or back bacon I do to 147-150F.
For belly bacon I take it to around 150 even though you are still most likely going to fry it. As for Canadian Bacon I take that to 145 as it is good to go to be eaten. The major difference for me is belly bacon has loads of fat and while technically is edible at 150, the texture and mouth feel is off putting for me. The Canadian Bacon should be 100% meat or minimal fat if the loin was trimmed correctly prior to the curing/smoking sessions and is edible without additional frying although you can fry it.
This is my personal opinion but what do I know? I just totally ruined a batch of smoked sausage. Others much smarter than me will be along to give you much better advice.
Belly bacon that is smoke/cooked to 150°F, can be sliced, stored and it fries up well. It takes less time to crisp it up, which I like when making a sweet bacon. At 140°F bacon is fully cooked; also and I find that will take a little longer to crisp up. I usually will smoke/cook to 140°F when I make savory types of bacon. Whether fully cooked or not; frying brings it to your desired texture (crispness).
As for Canadian bacon, I only take that to 140 - 142°F, and yes it can be eaten out of the refrigerator, or also sliced and fried.
140 F eh?? So that's where I messed up. ::) I went to 150F. Lesson learned ;D
Quote from: jiggerjams on December 10, 2011, 12:15:13 AM
140 F eh?? So that's where I messed up. ::) I went to 150F. Lesson learned ;D
Are you referring to the bellies or back (Canandian) bacon?
Thanks everyone for your replies it makes sense. I know what to do now.
I knew I could rely on you.
The loins have finished curing and the bacon is well underway.
Cheers
Hi All here are the results of my first Canadian Bacon and Belly Bacon. The belly bacon is Maple cured but not smoked but now I have confidence I have bought another pork belly this time to cure and smoke also to taste the difference.
I must admit the Canadian and belly bacon taste great.
I gave a little to my wife and daughter to try.......chunks keep disappearing lol.
Bacon, Maple cured
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk282/itchybeard/Flies/Smoking/DSCF1803.jpg)
Canadian bacon after curing.
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk282/itchybeard/Flies/Smoking/DSCF1802.jpg)
Canadian Bacon just after smoking, I will have to Vac Pac quick its disappearing...
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk282/itchybeard/Flies/Smoking/DSCF1809.jpg)
Thanks again guys this is possible because of you.
Cheers.
Looks Great! Love Bacon candy!
You did a fine job!
Just getting back to this post. Habs I was talking about CB. Thanks for the support.
You know really, you should not make CBB. It just evaporates. I had a 2lb piece in the fridge that kept getting smaller and smaller but when I said "who has been eating it" no one said anything. I think it is a flaw in the recipe. Habs really needs to work on that. LOL.
hey guys, i have a question...
the first time i made belly bacon, i cooked to an IT of 150, as that's what the recipe stated.
it was truly awesome, but it seemed to my wife and i to be more like ham, in that it is far more cooked than the essentially raw stuff that comes in the packages at the grocery store.
the last time i made it, i cold smoked it and it came out much more raw, and therefore more familiar.
the "cooked" type allowed the skin to be more easily peeled off... but at a loss of one whole-side of smoke-penetration. when i did it raw i took the skin off first... more work, but more smoke-penetrated.
there were also slicing differences when i went to package it up... i have only knives, no home-slicer, so my pieces come out like a kid carving a loaf of bread - paper-thin on one end and 1/2" on the other, but i call that "rustic". either way, i find the raw-type more easy to slice thinly, but less easy to slice with any uniformity.
so other than those two factors - and the fact that my wife and i just generally preferred the pan-fried raw-type slightly better - what's the reason to pre-cook? if you're vaccuum sealing, freezing and frying, i don't see the major advantage but maybe i'm missing something...
I've always smoked it to at least 145F, Living in FL, it is difficult to keep the temps in the "safe zone" (under 40F)
You might want to try partially freezing the belly after smoking and then slice. Try 30-45 minutes in the freezer. It may need more, but there is a fine line between "just right" and "too much" - I used to do this with raw beef for jerky. Now I do nuggets instead, much easier.
but to be clear - you're only hot-smoking because the cold smoke you get leaves your meat open to contamination too long?
Quote from: mrphilips on January 12, 2012, 11:15:33 AM
but to be clear - you're only hot-smoking because the cold smoke you get leaves your meat open to contamination too long?
I would definitely try it to see how we like it.
I did my first batch to 160, next batch to 155, then 150, etc... The 145 batch was much harder to get the skin off.
I may try to get the skin off pre-cure, but the last time I tried that it was not pretty. At all.
mrphilips;
I find if I slice the bacon too thick, it will have a texture closer to ham, when sliced thin it has the same texture as commercial bacon.
When I make savory bacon, I bring it up to a internal temperature of 140°F, and sweet bacon (such as the bacon you are making) to 150°F. I don't detect any difference in the taste or texture when they are fully cooked; but I realize that taste and texture is different per individual. The reason I precook sweet bacons to 150°F, because when I fry, it get to my desired crispness easier with out the sugars burning, other then that you don't have to bring it up to that temperature.
Whether the belly was cured with cure #1 or properly cured with salt, the danger zone should not matter during the smoking/cooking time. When you prepared your bacon the other way (raw), what internal temperature did you take the bacon, or did you just cold smoked it under 90°F and packaged it. Or was it hot smoked to an internal temperature of 139° or higher.
i hear you about the cook time, crispiness and hamier thickness... points taken.
when i prepared it raw-ish style, i did mine under 100F approx.
in my part of canada, the food handler's regulations are to keep un-cured high-risk meat out of the 39-140F (or 4-60C) zone for anything longer than 30min, or else you risk bacterial growth, etc (trichinosis is only found here in imported pork). but with all the curing salts, i have no issues pushing bacon a few hours to smoke even if the temp is within that zone, especially since i'll be cooking it afterwards.
when i cold smoked the bacon, it was under 100F (and above 39F) for that whole time - about 4 hours total.
i guess if i had hot-smoked it, i would avoid the "danger zone" period, but i wasn't overly concerned... we originally cured and smoked to make things safer ultimately, right?
so are you guys hot-smoking to inhibit growth or just for texture/crispiness/cook-time, etc?
The danger zone is the same here in the States. I believe you have misread my response. My inquiry to what temperatures you used was to clarify what you did. A lot of members use hot smoking temperatures, and refer to it as cold smoking.
As stated in my other post, if the bacon is cured, with a nitrite or properly cured with salt only, you do not have to worry about the danger zone during the smoke time. There is no safety reason why you would have to avoid the danger zone.
ok, sorry if i misread something.
i think i have it now, and i do understand the savory vs sweet concern.
and just to clarify - in your opinion bringing the IT to somewhere between140 and 150 is important to get the bacon to a better cooking-ready state for crispiness and cook time only, correct?
but as an aside that may be taking this well out of the initial thread's intent (if i haven't already)...
the bacon i get here is labelled as uncooked and looks significantly less hammy than the pictures of finished bacon i'm seeing on the forum. i see how the thickness would be a factor as you mentioned, and with a slicer i may be able to get it much closer, but the store-brand bacon here seems to be redder, wetter, and definitly completely raw - not brought to any dicernable IT.
i wonder if we're talking about two completely different beasts...
...but maybe i'm just smoking the wrong stuff.
either way, they're all delicious.
i think next time i'll try it both ways again and see how it pans out. post some pics too.
Nothing wrong with cold smoking. But you need to make sure you cook it long enough to kill all the bad things. I cook smoke mine to 140-145 and its safe to eat that way. Also quicker to fry up. I can eat mine cold or hot with out fear. (Bad habit form when I was young) You can buy it either way.
i could also have quite esily over-cooked or dried out my first (hot-smoked) attempt and found it too dry in comparison to the cold-smoked variety i tried afterwards.
the cold-smoked kind seemed closer to store-bought to me (not that that's better, just what's more "expected"), but there's a number of factors that may add up to that too... packaged meats always tend to be quite wet when the package is opened.
when i cook the raw stuff, i find what habanero said is so true... the sweetness on it chars a bit and leaves an almost sooty, burnt taste. i can see that hot-smoking would resolve that.
nothing left to do but experiment some more!
i bought the pork bellies today at lunch but i left them in the work fridge :(
at least it's not friday.
I did mis-speak when I stated that I didn't want to cold smoke it under 40F.
But in my environment, with just the SG the box can get 100-125F.
I need to build a new cold-smoke setup.
built a nifty one with an optional ice-bucket attachment/sunroof... http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=23287.msg307561#msg307561 (http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=23287.msg307561#msg307561) but i haven't used it for a proprer smoke out yet. the temp dropped before the need came up.
i feel the need may come up shortly... the bacon talk is making me squirley
mrphilips;
For savory bacon, I guess the 140°F is a habit left over from times the trichonosis was a major problem. Many home recipes recommended taking it to 139°F, so I tended to go with that to ensure the parasite was killed. I use 140°F, because most thermometers are + 2 degrees; and 140°F for at least 1 minute was deemed safer. But that parasite is not an issue any more with commercial pork.
For sweet bacons, the 150°F gives me better cooking-ready state for crispiness and cook time only.
The cold smoking method you are using for your bacon is fine.
that makes sense, habs
thanks
i have another question for you guys with the tricks...
i have a few good recipes for sweet bacons which use sweet liquids, like honey and syrup.
and i can imagine a few recipes for savory/savory-sweet recipes which would use salty liquids, like soy sauce...
if one was starting with the "basic dry cure", anyone have a rule of thumb on how to reduce the salt and sugar in the cure order to allow for the sweet or salty liquids to be added without over salting or sweetening?
i realize the liquids are bulkier in both volume and weight, but as they are solutions, they are by nature more dilute than the powders... just curious as i want to experiment with a few ideas and haven't made bacon more than a few times.
trial and error will prevail no doubt, but if anyone has played around and has a suggestion, i'd like to hear it
If you goal is to make a wet cure (wet brine), then you would be better off by adding cure #1, and additional salts, and sweetener to the liquid.
I have been working on a formula that will let me know how much salt is in a serving of food; such as soy sauce. I still working on it, but I can tell you that a teaspoon of table salt (pickling/canning salt) has 2,300 mg sodium (if my memory serves me right). If the soy sauce label says 700 mg sodium and a serving is one tablespoon; there are 16 tablespoon per cup. That would equal 11,200 mg sodium per cup. Divide that by 2,300, that come to about 4.9 tablespoons per cup, or 5 tablespoons. That would be the amount of salt per cup you would delete for a wet brine. I don't have any soy sauce in my house, so the 700mg is a guess.
The above may sound confusing, but I still working on it, and haven't worked on it for a while.
no sir, it's exactly what i was talking about, and pretty much what i was thinking.
at this level of moisture i'm definitly still talking about a cure - a wet cure. to me, a brine is much more watery than this.
but i am under the impression that with the added water in the liquids, the concentration of salt and sugar in the liguid would have to be greater as the water interupts the "direct contact" normally found in the dry cure...
two starts from the same book make for interesting reads... Ruhlman's has the basic dry cure for bacon as you know, but it also has a wet cure that uses some maple syrup. comparitively, i have to imagine that these two formulations contains more or less the same amount of salt (and nitrite), though the maple one is probably sweeter.
your idea of counting sodium mgs is about as far as i got for the salt vs salty-liquid calculation (though i suspect you would need a greater percent just to account for the addition of water)... but i have no idea how to count the sugar content from an ingredient label.
perhaps comparing the two ruhlman recipes for the same amount of pork would give approximate sugar vs sweet-liquid math (if one assumes that honey and syup have equal sweetnesses)?
I didn't mention anything about water, I stated liquids. So it would be the total amounts of liquid, that would include your soy sauce, honey and syrups. If water is needed to make the proper amount of brine, then you can add that.
Sorry, I jsut took for granted that you were familiar with a wet cure recipes. When you make a wet brine would would have to add much more cure #1 and salt. For example, for 1 gallon of liquid I will use about 3 ounces of cure #1, and about 7 ounces of salt. That is why I stated that you should not use the basic cure, and make a wet brine and add the cure #1 to it. When you prepare a brine like this it has more direct contact then a dry cure. More cure is coming into contact with the surface of the meat, and for small to average size cuts wet curing is faster then a dry cure.
I guess what you want to do is make a paste, in that case some of the cure will be suspended and it may or may not come into contact with the meat. I haven't experimented with that.
i think we've just crossed a few terms, i am quite familiar with brines, which is what i'd call something with a gallon of water in it.
when i mention water, i just mean the extra liquid in an ingredient this ins't the salty or sweet component... the stuff that makes soy sauce a sauce OTHER than the salty, sweet flavours in it.
that's the stuff i'm thinking will dilute the added cure ingredients... so assuming you calculated one for one by counting the mgs of sodium in the dry cure' salt, i'm guessing you would still want more than that in it's soy sauce equivalent, as the salt in the soy sauce is more dilute than pure salt.
yes, i'm talking essentially about pastes (what i meant by a wet cure - maybe chose the wrong term there).
well, i'm about to try a few types right now - a savory/sweet maple with onion and galic, and a black pepper/rosemary/honey/mustard one... starting with the ruhlman maple version, but modifying it. neither will use soy sauce as per our example, so aren't really a test of this last conversation, but if they're successful i'm going to try a soy and lemongrass one.