Is this just a case of too lean of meats?
2.5 lbs Deer (Everything but muscle cut out, zero fat)
2.5 lbs Ground Beef (Bought whole cow so no way of knowing fat to lean)
26g Instant NFDM
15g Soy Protein
14g Sugar
6g Cure #1
3g Pepper
3g Paprika
2g Mace
2g Garlic Powder
1g Onion Powder
3g Ground Mustard
3/4 cup Ice Water
Ground beef was ground frozen, mixed with ground deer, added seasonings and ground twice more.
Stuffed in 124mm casing and back to fridge for 3 hours.
No smoke on this one, brought slow cooker water up to 180.
Added bologna, water temp dropped to 153.
1 hour later water temp was around 165
2 hours water temp 175
3 hours water temp 185
Bologna taken out at IT 165, I know should be 155 but was playing it safe.
Straight into ice bath, took about an hour to get temp down to 60.
It did hit 171 in ice bath before cooling down.
Salt intentionally left out. My son is on very low sodium diet and this is my first attempt at a healthier sausage.
Also my first attempt at poaching a big chub. Is this just a case of too little fat?
I know my temps were high but would that dry it out THIS much?
I would guess the low fat meat and heat did it all. When its done its done and no more safe going 1 minute more. Also bologna does have quite a bit of fat. When i do mine i use extra pork fat when meat is lean. Plus most the flavor of meat is in the fat i believe. At least for me.
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Should have used either the powdered milk or the soy protein, not both.
Is is worse that I cooked to 165 or that the poaching liquid was so high?
BTW the higher IT was because of the missing salt, was worried it may not be as safe.
As for the NFDM and SPC combo, I saw a recipe somewhere that used a similar ratio and thought what the heck I'll try it.
I really didn't think it would cause any problems.
The 2 combined took all the moisture from the meat which made it dry and crumbly
dry milk as a binder for 5 lbs of meat is used at 1.25 oz
soy as a binder for 5 lbs of meat is used at 1.20oz
Dry milk as a flavor enhancer for 5 lbs of meat 0.40oz
So that would be 35g NFDM or 34g SPC.
I was off by 6 grams. Is that correct?
I guess with leaner meats 6g can make a big difference.
BTW I have seen recipes with 100g NFDM. Is it the fat that allows this?
I have seen recipes wit way to much cure as well. Always best to check all amounts of additives like binder and cure to recommended amounts. I also have made some crumbly stuff. And with mine it was heat a lot of times as it fats out. Lots of reasons that binder probably is just one.
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Terabull
Here's my 2 cents...
1) First thing is the lean to fat ratio. I always want my sausage to be 80 to 85% lean and 15 to 20% fat. I've tried leaning it out more but it always looses flavor and is sometimes crumbly. Deer is pretty much 100% lean. If, for an example, the beef you used was 85-15 or 90-10 your final mix was more like 90 to 95% lean to 5 or 10% fat. My opinion is that's far to lean especially for bologna.
2) Nothing wrong with using just the hot water bath but in my opinion it should not exceed 160 to 165. I personally shoot for 160 but it will stray a degree or two either way. Running temps at 175 and 185 for that period of time will certainly render the limited fat that was in the sausage.
3) 165 for an target IT on the sausage is too high. It allowed time for the heat to begin to render the fat in the sausage. If I finish my sausage in the smoker I shoot for an IT of 152. If I finish my sausage in a hot water bath I shoot for an IT of 155. I do this simply because the temp rises relatively quickly in the hot water bath and I want to know the IT of the sausage has been at 152 for a few minutes.
4) I rarely use NFDM or SPC. I used to but really have not found the need for it at all.
Again, just my opinion but I thought I would throw it out there.
Mike
Totally agree. Except for the last. As I still use a milk or other binder most times. But have never tried with out. May try now as I dont like adding extra ingrediants not reall needed. Trying to get a way from most of that.
Quote from: Mr Walleye on November 18, 2012, 12:46:14 PM
Terabull
Here's my 2 cents...
1) First thing is the lean to fat ratio. I always want my sausage to be 80 to 85% lean and 15 to 20% fat. I've tried leaning it out more but it always looses flavor and is sometimes crumbly. Deer is pretty much 100% lean. If, for an example, the beef you used was 85-15 or 90-10 your final mix was more like 90 to 95% lean to 5 or 10% fat. My opinion is that's far to lean especially for bologna.
2) Nothing wrong with using just the hot water bath but in my opinion it should not exceed 160 to 165. I personally shoot for 160 but it will stray a degree or two either way. Running temps at 175 and 185 for that period of time will certainly render the limited fat that was in the sausage.
3) 165 for an target IT on the sausage is too high. It allowed time for the heat to begin to render the fat in the sausage. If I finish my sausage in the smoker I shoot for an IT of 152. If I finish my sausage in a hot water bath I shoot for an IT of 155. I do this simply because the temp rises relatively quickly in the hot water bath and I want to know the IT of the sausage has been at 152 for a few minutes.
4) I rarely use NFDM or SPC. I used to but really have not found the need for it at all.
Again, just my opinion but I thought I would throw it out there.
Mike
I agree with Mike. I do not use NFDM or SPC in most of my sausages. But the fat content needs to be there. I use Costco Pork shoulders most of the time. They are trimmed but not all that well. I use them 50/50 to my venison. I keep my temperatures at 160-165 for the bath and do not exceed 155 for the IT. I have never experienced crumbly sausage. I did have a friend that was doing his own thing one time and he did not get enough cure in his sausage. The sausage was crumbly even though is should have had enough fat. But rather then the pink color it had a brown cooked hamburger look. I had him cook it hotter and freeze it like fresh sausage. I also gave him a free lecture on not putting the proper amount the meat cure.
I hate it when you remove from the freezer and the nice pink color has some off color brown also. I have even seen a light green tinge. I know it wont hurt you as I have a friend been eating it for years. Nut just turns me off seeing it.
Quote from: Terabull on November 17, 2012, 09:08:08 PM
Salt intentionally left out. My son is on very low sodium diet and this is my first attempt at a healthier sausage.
Also my first attempt at poaching a big chub. Is this just a case of too little fat?
I know my temps were high but would that dry it out THIS much?
Tarabull
I just reread your recipe and noticed that you left the salt out alltogether. That's a real no-no in sausage making. In my opinion this is also a reason for crumbly sausage.
Here's an exert from here: http://www.nirvani.net/docs/cache/home.pacbell.net/lpoli/page0001.htm
"SALT: Essential to cure meat! Salt prevents the growth of some of the bacteria that are responsible for meat spoilage by either inhibiting the growth of those bacteria directly or removing enough water from the meat that they cannot survive. Salt also helps in extraction of the soluble proteins which help in binding of restructured meat products. Salt is used both in dry cure as well as brining. Only food grade salt should be used. Some people wish to have less sodium due to its relationship with hypertension and food grade Potassium chloride has been used to substitute for sodium chloride up to a 40% level. The use in a ratio of 40 : 60 reduces sodium up to 34 – 35 %.
Another exert from here: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes/secrets
2. Salt. The sausage needs salt. Salt contributes to flavor, curing and firmness, water holding and juiciness, binding and texture (protein extraction), safety and it prevents water cooking loss. In general sausages contain 1.5-2% salt. About 3.5-5% will be the upper limit of acceptability, anything more and the product will be too salty. Get the calculator and punch in some numbers. Or if you use the metric system you don't even need the calculator: You need 2 grams of salt per 100 grams of meat. If you buy ten times more meat (1 kg) you will also need ten times more salt (20 grams). Now for the rest of your life you don't have to worry about salt in your recipes. If you want a consistent product, weigh out your salt. Estimating salt per cups or spoons can be deceiving as not all salts weigh the same per unit volume.
Mike
I tryed that on my Bologna one time. It was the worst stuff i made. I had to grind it and ad relish and mayo just to eat it like a spread. Oh and salt. Never again. Lost about 10 or 15 lbs that way. And it was crumbly a little too!
The whole point of making this particular bologna was to reduce the sodium so my son could have a little lunchmeat once in a while. Around 70 mg sodium per slice.
Without the extra salt in the recipe I was a little worried about putting it in the smoker as well as sitting too long in the poaching liquid. Hence the higher temps.
Terabull
Here's a little information I have found about using salt substitutes in sausage. Maybe it will help you out. I'll let you know if I come accross anything else.
http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-types/low-salt-sausage
Mike
Quote from: Mr Walleye on November 19, 2012, 04:03:31 PM
Terabull
Here's a little information I have found about using salt substitutes in sausage. Maybe it will help you out. I'll let you know if I come accross anything else.
http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-types/low-salt-sausage
Mike
I try to stay away from salt substitutes simply because they taste horrible.
Am I reading this correct that 1.5% sodium is minimum for safety?
If that is correct then I would need to add 28g salt to my recipe resulting in each very thin slice of bologna having 290mg sodium.
Very high.
Leads me to wonder about my meatloaf recipe that cooks at 350 and still very moist. Could it be stuffed in a casing?
I imagine that compacting it in a casing is what pushes the moisture out.
According to what i read most americans consume too much salt Approx. 2300 mg a day. And 1500 mg on a low salt. So according to that 290mg would be a low salt. Also found this from a doctor on salt.
SPECIAL GROUPS
Some population groups should limit their sodium intake to 1,500 mg per day, or 3/4 tsp of salt. If you are African American or over age 51, or if you have high blood pressure, diabetes, or chronic kidney disease, this lower recommendation applies to you. As noted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, about half of American adults fall into one of these categories, and almost anyone will probably benefit from decreased sodium consumption, given the high levels in the average American diet.
Quote from: viper125 on November 20, 2012, 08:18:15 PM
According to what i read most americans consume too much salt Approx. 2300 mg a day. And 1500 mg on a low salt. So according to that 290mg would be a low salt. Also found this from a doctor on salt.
SPECIAL GROUPS
Some population groups should limit their sodium intake to 1,500 mg per day, or 3/4 tsp of salt. If you are African American or over age 51, or if you have high blood pressure, diabetes, or chronic kidney disease, this lower recommendation applies to you. As noted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, about half of American adults fall into one of these categories, and almost anyone will probably benefit from decreased sodium consumption, given the high levels in the average American diet.
I encounter this daily so don't take this as a rant.
Before I had to watch sodium I thought it was that easy as well. I bet you don't know very many people who consume only 2300mg a day. Most are at 3000 to 6000, and that 6000 is fairly normal.
At a hospital I was at recently, hospital mind you, in the cafeteria they had a little 7 inch pizza with 2000mg sodium.
My son is 5 with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. He is on a 1000 to 1500mg sodium diet. He drinks 3 glasses of milk a day as per doctor (mostly for calcium), thats 360mg sodium.
1 slice of this bologna and low sodium bread is another 416mg. 776mg for 1 meal and milk, and still 2 meals to go. Don't get me started on snack time at school, or cheese, lol.
I see the numbers and hear it all the time cheese and sausage for us is out of the question, and it probably is, but I have to give it a shot.
Ok maybe a little rant but not towards your post viper.
I like the Wedlinydomowe site, and it has a lot of important information. But some information does have a counter point of view. The amount of salt is very important when making dry cured sausage, but for other sausage you can vary the amount. If you want a lower sodium sausage, Kutas recommends reducing the recipe by 1/3 the amount of salt, and increasing a binder. Though lowering the salt will have an impact on flavor, and the ability to create a primary bind.
Since you have NFDM, I would stick with that only. With NFDM you can add up to 10% by green weight, but 3.5% is the usual amount. At a rate of 3.5% that would be 71 grams per five pounds. You may have to use a lot of trial and error, for the correct amount of salt, NFDM and additional water. Before stuffing, beat the h*ll out of it, until it is a sticky paste. If you are successful to make this without salt or salt substitutes, I will be very interested.
Your cooking method is safe, but if you smoke it at low temperatures you will need to add cure #1, which is another source of sodium.
I encounter this daily so don't take this as a rant.
Before I had to watch sodium I thought it was that easy as well. I bet you don't know very many people who consume only 2300mg a day. Most are at 3000 to 6000, and that 6000 is fairly normal.
At a hospital I was at recently, hospital mind you, in the cafeteria they had a little 7 inch pizza with 2000mg sodium.
My son is 5 with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. He is on a 1000 to 1500mg sodium diet. He drinks 3 glasses of milk a day as per doctor (mostly for calcium), thats 360mg sodium.
1 slice of this bologna and low sodium bread is another 416mg. 776mg for 1 meal and milk, and still 2 meals to go. Don't get me started on snack time at school, or cheese, lol.
I see the numbers and hear it all the time cheese and sausage for us is out of the question, and it probably is, but I have to give it a shot.
Ok maybe a little rant but not towards your post viper.
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Thats fine not taken personally. As I have my own health problems too. And i shoot for a low fat and salt too! But thank God not as low as that. Very sorry to hear about your son and God bless him. But the fact alone that most the sausages and that use cure may stop you before starting. But was thinking a fresh stuffed or loose sausage may be the ticket for you. No cure and salt to taste. I some times use lettuce leafs instead of bread or even a soft taco or burrito shell. But sure you know of those already.
I think i'd try just the binder of a small amount of dry milk and salt to taste. Use the hot water bath but not so hot and stop at the right temp. May work better. But not really sure. Don't think you'll be in the danger zone over 4 hours so Id think it be safe with out cure. And lower heat wont cause as much drying out. You'd only need enough salt to taste. The batch of trail ring bologna I made with out salt came out fine. But just didn't like the no salt taste. You may want to try a small batch of that. I posted it under trail bologna I believe and can give you the recipe if your interested to look at. It can be made in large casings and sliced like regular bologna. And that I smoked but does have cure. Just the pink salt cure not morton.
Terabull
As Habs pointed out once the salt content gets too low you have trouble getting the primary bind. Also as Habs pointed out, with the limited salt increasing the binder to help hold it all together should help too. It will definitely by an experimental thing for sure. I completely understand and commend your commitment for your son.
I think making sure your fat content is right and paying attention to the temp of your hot water bath will increase your success for sure. I'm sure you already are but make sure you keep all your notes with all the details of each batch you do so that you can make any necessary adjustments to the recipe or the process.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Mike
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on November 21, 2012, 03:17:36 AM
I like the Wedlinydomowe site, and it has a lot of important information. But some information does have a counter point of view. The amount of salt is very important when making dry cured sausage, but for other sausage you can vary the amount. If you want a lower sodium sausage, Kutas recommends reducing the recipe by 1/3 the amount of salt, and increasing a binder. Though lowering the salt will have an impact on flavor, and the ability to create a primary bind.
Since you have NFDM, I would stick with that only. With NFDM you can add up to 10% by green weight, but 3.5% is the usual amount. At a rate of 3.5% that would be 71 grams per five pounds. You may have to use a lot of trial and error, for the correct amount of salt, NFDM and additional water. Before stuffing, beat the h*ll out of it, until it is a sticky paste. If you are successful to make this without salt or salt substitutes, I will be very interested.
Your cooking method is safe, but if you smoke it at low temperatures you will need to add cure #1, which is another source of sodium.
Terabull
Not trying to force a sale but one of my bucket mixers would help you emulsify your sausages well. After the cure is added to the sausage and the protein starts to break down, if you can emulsify it well at this point I think would help with your binding process. It is hard to do this by hand.
Kirby
Quote from: pikeman_95 on November 21, 2012, 08:05:43 AM
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on November 21, 2012, 03:17:36 AM
I like the Wedlinydomowe site, and it has a lot of important information. But some information does have a counter point of view. The amount of salt is very important when making dry cured sausage, but for other sausage you can vary the amount. If you want a lower sodium sausage, Kutas recommends reducing the recipe by 1/3 the amount of salt, and increasing a binder. Though lowering the salt will have an impact on flavor, and the ability to create a primary bind.
Since you have NFDM, I would stick with that only. With NFDM you can add up to 10% by green weight, but 3.5% is the usual amount. At a rate of 3.5% that would be 71 grams per five pounds. You may have to use a lot of trial and error, for the correct amount of salt, NFDM and additional water. Before stuffing, beat the h*ll out of it, until it is a sticky paste. If you are successful to make this without salt or salt substitutes, I will be very interested.
Your cooking method is safe, but if you smoke it at low temperatures you will need to add cure #1, which is another source of sodium.
Terabull
Not trying to force a sale but one of my bucket mixers would help you emulsify your sausages well. After the cure is added to the sausage and the protein starts to break down, if you can emulsify it well at this point I think would help with your binding process. It is hard to do this by hand.
Kirby
Pikeman is 100% correct. I have one and love it.
Me too! Great for bologna and hot dogs. And lots of other things too.