manxman,
On another thread you asked about the Right To Shoot First States. I posting my answer here as I expect that thread to get deleted.
Allow me to explain how it works here in the States. Here from State to State Laws vary. Laws such as the Right to Shoot First protect the honest person; however most laws do not protect the honest person. We do have people here who believe that all laws will protect a person. Laws are what we are judge by.
In my State any person who has a legal permit to carry a gun has the right not to retreat from any legal area that they are allowed to be in and carry said gun. If an event comes up where a legal gun carrying person believes another person is about to hurt them or their family that person may take first action. If the investigation proves out that the person's fears were justified then by law that person cannot be prosecuted in either a civil or criminal court.
Basically what it boils down to is if I'm a legal gun carry person and believe that another person is threating me I can shoot first.
What is the value of this law? Today in my State our crime rate is the lowest it has been in over a quarter of a century.
Now let's contrast this to Washington DC where they have the strictest gun control laws in the country. Where the average person cannot have a gun. Last year alone the Chief of Police had to declare a criminal emergency twice.
More and more States are moving toward the Right To Shoot First. The crime rate in those states are dropping. As I said most Laws don't protect a person. They only judge.
It was not to long ago due to a ban I as an honest person could not purchase high capacity mags. Now I can and I do. I have 2 - 30 round mags, and 10- 20 round mags. The question may be asked why do I feel I need these? The reason is the same reason that more and more Police department are arming the Officers with more than a shot gun and a side arm. The bad guys just have more fire power.
Plus I believe it is my Right to own a reasonable means of defense
Olds
Olds,
I couldnt agree more. I believe that I have a fundamental right to defend myself. Concurrent with that right is the responsibility to behave within the law and within reasonable bounds. Should I be a jackass that shoots first without provocation, then lock me away for life, but should I save myself or my family, the current court system supports wrongful death suits with ridiculous awards for dead criminals.
I believe strongly that I should be responsible for my actions. Consequences are no longer taught. My children get trophies for participating in everything, and I admit, I dont know what to feel. I think its great they are excited but they get something for nothing, ie do not excel but still get awards? On the black side of that equation, is children in school cannot be scolded or reprimanded, or should I choose to swat my child's fanny (and thank god with my 4 and 7 year old I have not had too yet) I could get sent to local social services agencies for their discipline. Kids play bloody video games without understanding what blood means. I am a child of a farm. We struggled to bring critters into this world, bottle fed them, raised them, milked or otherwise utilized them till no longer productive, then ate them. We were taught what happened when we pulled the trigger, something died. If it was meaningless, it was a tragedy with the worst of ramifications, as life is paramount. Now, kids who commit crimes go to summer camp until 18 and their records are expunged and they get to lead a normal life, while their victim is still a victim.
Behavior is tolerated that is unacceptable. In sports, student athletes that are 10 and 12 years old mouth off to coaches and officials in ways that are unimaginable. There are no consequences for being a jerk. Mommy says its ok Johnny and a teacher/coach/official has no voice of reason. Look at professional athletes behavior today.
The base theme of this treatise is preaching responsibility and accountability. Due whatever you believe necessary, but buddy boy, you had better be able to accept the consequences. This tempers your judgment and will force you to think about the other guy.
Sorry, rambling
mld
My concern is that the average gun owner has neither the capability of assessing the need for deadly force nor the gun handling skills to apply that force and is just as likely to injure themselves or even worse an innocent bystander. 8)
MANXMAN,
In the Mountain State of West Virgina the bad guys have guns , legal and illegal... That's why we , the good guys can carry them too.(legal) We all know
the difference between right and wrong. Who would you bet on to honor the right
decision ? The good or the bad ?.... That's why the good guys carry them too.
Coyote
PS. REMEMBER: When they outlaw guns...only outlaws will have them.
QuoteI posting my answer here as I expect that thread to get deleted.
Yes, I thought about that after I posted, glad you picked up on it and posted a separate reply.
On this side of the pond more and more effort seems to be going into protecting the criminal whilst the decent man in the street appears to have little or no rights or protection either. Obviously gun laws over here are very different in any case.
It was refreshing to read well balanced arguments from the guys who posted replies, and winemakers..... your "ramblings" made perfect sense! :D
Thanks Oldman, very interesting subject.
Quote from: TomG on September 06, 2006, 08:55:17 PM
My concern is that the average gun owner has neither the capability of assessing the need for deadly force nor the gun handling skills to apply that force and is just as likely to injure themselves or even worse an innocent bystander. 8)
Tom there is merit in what you say without education. Here there is a pretty tough gun course a person has to take before they can apply for a permit to carry a gun. Part of that course is demonstrating how to not only correctly handle your gun but a minimum of 100 live fire exercises. Next, there are defense classes as well. Permits are not just handed out. Plus there is one heck of a background check.
People that go after permits are serious folk who don't take this lightly. They value life. They don't go around flashing their guns or making threats to people. They have learn what their effective killing range is. They shoot at least once per month if possible. A few months back I took Mother to the range. She is 76 and at 25 yards she was grouping with a mid-size 9mm 4 inches. She knows her effective range is 25 yards. At 50 yard she knows her group is to wide.
As for the rest of the world that does not go this route then you are quite correct. An innocent bystander may very well get hurt. However, this does not give anyone the right to ban or remove my Right to own and carry a firearm, and yet every time an innocent bystander is hurt or killed there are folks who want to do just that. As if that action would stop the problem.
How far would these folks go in removing my Rights? Well let's take a look at what is currently happening in England where guns are not allowed unless air power.
A&E doctors are calling for a ban on long pointed kitchen knives to reduce deaths from stabbing. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm) What is next? Forks? This is not a perfect world by any means, and it never will be. Until it is I demand the Right to defend myself with whatever it will be: a gun, a knife or a fork.
There is a kid of 19 down the street from me who has been shot 4 times. Has only one lung now, and yet he was caught a couple of weeks back chasing down another young man with a gun in his hand. It does not take the smartest person in the world to know that if he was coming at them with a gun in his hand that he was not going to stop and just say hello.
Last year due to Katrina it was the folks who could not defend themselves that paid a terrible price.
Olds
Olds,
I have to confess to having a minor chink in my otherwise intact bleeding heart liberal armor. I'm dedicated to the "Gun control means hitting your target" philosophy and a range rat, sometimes competitive, competition shooter, classified Master in NM High Power Rifle and Expert in 3 gun Bullseye Pistol. I spend a minimum of 30 hours a month at local ranges either practicing for or shooting matches. Having watched literally thousands of recreational handgun shooters over a 15 year period, I'm impressed with how few can hit their 18x24" target let alone the 4" bulls eye at 25 yards. I obviously have no problem with responsible gun ownership and after both local and Federal governments response to Katrina, would suggest that anyone living in a disaster (nature or man made) prone area, arm themselves with what ever is necessary to protect them and theirs. The lessons to take from that fiasco is that Brownie really didn't do a "heck of job", law enforcement , when you need it, is nonexistent and that tax paying, law abiding citizens may have to temporarily protect themselves against the "forces of evil".
Bottom line: I'm 100% for keeping child safe arms in the house, but think routinely having a loaded gun in either your car or pocket is a prescription for tragedy.
I know it will never happen but i wish there were no guns :(.To many of my friends have died because of them.I will never forget them.Its one thing to protect your self.And another to shoot people for fun and then see what happens.By all means protect your selfs and family there are way to many nut bags out there.Its the other side of this conversation that needs to be addressed.People who should not have guns and do.Just my opinion .God bless and be with my friends god rest there souls.RAT OUT.
QuoteMaster in NM High Power Rifle and Expert in 3 gun Bullseye Pistol. I spend a minimum of 30 hours a month at local ranges either practicing for or shooting matches.
Wow Tom I'm impressed. I will never be in your class of shooter. The best I can seem to get is 4 inches at 75 yards with an iron site.
Icerat4 I agree with you on all points. The last thing at my age I want to do is see another person in my sights. That is way it has been over 30 years since I picked up another weapon.
There is a thread on another site that I jumped into. It is concerning
H.R. 1415. (http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=53373) You all might want to take a few and read this thread if you are concerned about your rights.
Trust me when the big one hits, 911 does not work and the bad guns have auto 30 to 60 or 100 round C-mags you will wish that you had something more than a 6-shooter.
Ten years ago I would have called myself Chick Little. Today I don't
Olds
ICERAT4 and all the good folks in this topic, I think this is as plain as it can be said.
GUNS CAUSE DEATH THE SAME WAY FLIES CAUSE TRASH.
COYOTE
Quote from: coyote on September 07, 2006, 07:44:43 PM
GUNS CAUSE DEATH THE SAME WAY FLIES CAUSE TRASH.
And as Olds says; "If flies are outlawed, only outlaws will have flies." :o
http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=2228.0
Olds, I remember a similar posting from last year titled "We Are Now The Shoot First State".
Olds,
Maybe the next to the last thing I want to see is someone in my sights.
But without a doubt the very last thing I would want is to be seen in someone -elses sights.
Remember:He who waits last to shoot will be to busy wiping his own
blood to ever squeeze the trigger.
mws,
I got to admit that there have not been the crazies shooting people up as much as I thought when that law was first pasted. I know of one in my area, and that fool is in jail.
There you go Manx,
I bet you thought we were just a bunch of beer swilling ex-colonists sitting around watching Bisquettes go up in smoke ??? ??? ???
QuoteThere you go Manx,
I bet you thought we were just a bunch of beer swilling ex-colonists sitting around watching Bisquettes go up in smoke
Haha TomG..... ex-colonists no, beer swilling maybe, watching bisquettes going up in smoke definately!! ;D ;D
Having said that there are more people of Manx ancestory now living in the US (and Australia) than living here on this rock stuck in the middle of the Irish Sea....... remember Dan Quayle! ::)
Certainly makes interesting reading, the press over here tend to, or tended to portray the US as a gun toting shoot first ask questions later society with the OK Coral on every street corner! :-[
I say tended to as that opinion certainly appears to be changing, I think the US is ahead of us in reclaiming the streets for the decent people but obviously has a way to go yet.
Certainly in the three times I have been to the US since 1996 I have never felt intimidated, threatened or worried in any way, that is not always the case in London or Manchester. Having said that I have never been to a major US city as yet so it may be different than the bits I have seen, mainly tourist areas?
QuoteHaving said that I have never been to a major US city as yet so it may be different than the bits I have seen, mainly tourist areas?
All places in the world have bads spots.
All places in the world have bads spots.
Hey, Anchorage is a good place. Okay so we have hookers in the Spenard district, well alright Down Town we have more alcoholics than the rest of the country, and I have to admit to the drug dealers in the Mountain View area, opps lets not forget the gangs on the east side either. Okay, okay we have the higest rape rate in the villages in the country. Dang!!! I guess all places do have bad spots.
I think I'll just go home now and support my habit. Smoking that is. With a Bradley that is. While consuming cold ones that is. I'll be quite now. ;D :D ;)
QuoteAll places in the world have bads spots.
Very true.
Quote from: coyote on September 07, 2006, 09:21:44 PM
Remember:He who waits last to shoot will be to busy wiping his own
blood to ever squeeze the trigger.
]
Quote from: manxman on September 08, 2006, 09:00:48 AM
[Certainly makes interesting reading, the press over here tend to, or tended to portray the US as a gun toting shoot first ask questions later society with the OK Coral on every street corner! :-[
I Wonder how they got that impression? :o
;D ;D ;D Good one Tom
QuoteGood one Tom
ditto ;D
Five years ago , this comming Monday , even the gun control folks were trying
to remember where they hid Grandpa's old gun....Go Figure.
Quote from: coyote on September 09, 2006, 10:14:21 AM
Five years ago , this comming Monday , even the gun control folks were trying
to remember where they hid Grandpa's old gun....Go Figure.
Or those Riots....
Quote from: iceman on September 08, 2006, 10:20:56 AM
All places in the world have bads spots.
Hey, Anchorage is a good place. Okay so we have hookers in the Spenard district, well alright Down Town we have more alcoholics than the rest of the country, .......
HEY! Easy on Spenard, Iceman.....if it wasn't for my time at Spenard Fire Station 5 ("Fightin' Five") and responses to Station 1 ("Downtown"), I wouldn't have HALF the good fire/rescue stories to tell! :o ONE year @ 5s was equal to 20 years at Rabbit Creek! ;)
Interesting thread you started Manx....I've been a "carrier" for at least 40 years, several of those years as a peace officer and, (thank God!), I've never had to unholster on anyone. Still carrying and pray that I finish out that way!
Quote from: Kummok on September 09, 2006, 07:07:49 PM
Interesting thread you started Manx....I've been a "carrier" for at least 40 years, several of those years as a peace officer and, (thank God!), I've never had to unholster on anyone. Still carrying and pray that I finish out that way!
Amen Kummok, I too "carry"
When I'm in brown bear country:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/ffa.jpg)
Unless of course, those bears are in Canada, in which case I carry:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/bell.jpg)
And when I'm on the "mean streets" of SF and remember to put it in my pocket, I carry:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pep.jpg)
The only time I've had to unholster it, was to kick up the flavor of an under spiced Chinese dish in a cheap restaurant.
Don't take your guns to town ;D ;D ;D
On a stop watch, I wonder what the time difference between killing in self defense
and being killed is ?
Some people are offended by guns...Would being pushed over a
twenty story balcony or in front of a train or hit in the head with a hammer
make this a kinder gentler nation ? I don't know. I guess it depends on where
you live and who you ask.
Quote from: Kummok on September 09, 2006, 07:07:49 PM
Quote from: iceman on September 08, 2006, 10:20:56 AM
All places in the world have bads spots.
HEY! Easy on Spenard, Iceman.....if it wasn't for my time at Spenard Fire Station 5 ("Fightin' Five") and responses to Station 1 ("Downtown"), I wouldn't have HALF the good fire/rescue stories to tell! :o ONE year @ 5s was equal to 20 years at Rabbit Creek! ;)
I used to live off McKinley street in Spenard. Just a stones throw from your station. How long were you at 5 Kummok?
Quote from: iceman on September 11, 2006, 08:50:54 AM
I used to live off McKinley street in Spenard. Just a stones throw from your station. How long were you at 5 Kummok?
A couple years in the early 80s....loved the crew and the location! One of the several jobs I've had that I really looked forward to going to work! 8) Veeeeery interesting to see what goes on behind closed doors in Spenard.....makes one re-evaluate the "human" part of humanity?!?!?!? :o
Quote from: manxman on September 08, 2006, 09:00:48 AM
Having said that there are more people of Manx ancestory now living in the US (and Australia) than living here on this rock stuck in the middle of the Irish Sea...
Count me as one of 'em! I learned just a couple of years ago that my earliest American ancestor was born in 1759 to parents from the Isle. We'd previously assumed, having the family name of Luna, that we originated in Spain way back when. That changed when an uncle undertook tracing the family's geneology. It turns out that a later ancestor changed it from Looney to differentiate himself from so many others in his locale who had the same name.
I'm also a proponent and practitioner of responsible, lawful concealed carry. Contrary to some people's understandable concerns, CCWers seem to be statistically safer and more law-abiding than the general population.
Iceman...The Wife® and I lived on the "good side" of Mountain View for some time, saving to buy our current house out in Peters Creek. While it was generally quiet where we were, life is much nicer out here.
Quote from: PetersCreek on September 12, 2006, 02:09:57 PM
Iceman...The Wife® and I lived on the "good side" of Mountain View for some time, saving to buy our current house out in Peters Creek. While it was generally quiet where we were, life is much nicer out here.
Peters Creek was a good move for you. Ann lived there for a few years. We decided on Knik when the "cabin" we were building got a little bigger than we thought it would be. For just the two of us and the furry four pawed kids it's too big but we like it. Hope to get with Vampyr and get together with you and Wife soon for some pizza. I meant to ask, have you tried grilling pizzas yet? I tried your dough and well lets just leave it at this. "We won't be ordering pizza out anymore"! I hope you know you created another monster in the kitchen. Just when Ann figures things will calm down I get hooked on another recipe quest. Hey, winter is getting close and I can't just work on the house all the time. Of course you know pizza requires large amounts of ale so...... I better stop now. I'm getting thirsty already. :D
QuoteCount me as one of 'em! I learned just a couple of years ago that my earliest American ancestor was born in 1759 to parents from the Isle. We'd previously assumed, having the family name of Luna, that we originated in Spain way back when. That changed when an uncle undertook tracing the family's geneology. It turns out that a later ancestor changed it from Looney to differentiate himself from so many others in his locale who had the same name.
Wow, what a small world. The name Looney typically comes from a town called Peel here on the Isle of Man. Well it is actually designated a city because it has a cathedral but in the greater scheme of things it is a town, even perhaps a village!! :D
Know several Looney's, a good Manx name! :) (although like my own surname it is actually Irish Gaelic in origin)
Quote from: manxman on September 12, 2006, 03:31:12 PM
QuoteKnow several Looney's
Me too, but I try to avoid them when I'm about on the town! ;D ;D
Kirk
QuoteMe too, but I try to avoid them when I'm about on the town!
Now I just knew someone would come back with a comment such as this and you were odds on favourite Kirk!! Glad you did not disappoint! ;D ;D ;D
And yes..... there are a few Looney's by name, looney's by nature that I know but most are very level headed. ;)
Iceman—Yep, it was definitely a good move for us. One of the movers even commented on the degree of upgrade. I'm glad the crust recipe worked out for ya. You're doomed, ya know. I have grilled my pizzas yet but I've been contemplating it for a while.
Manxman—Thanks for the info about Peel. Other than briefly scanning the official tourism website, I don't know that much about the Isle. What I've seen, though, makes me think a visit is in my future at some point.
QuoteOther than briefly scanning the official tourism website, I don't know that much about the Isle. What I've seen, though, makes me think a visit is in my future at some point.
I am sure you would be made very welcome. :)
As a boy I can remember relatives visiting from Pennyslvania, I still have a dollar note they gave me at the time. Sadly they are both dead now and I have lost contact with their children but I do know I have realtives in that part of the world.
It's a small world.......
Quote from: manxman on September 14, 2006, 01:00:24 PM
.....As a boy I can remember relatives visiting from Pennyslvania, I still have a dollar note they gave me at the time. .....
It's a small world.......
Did that "Penn trip" dollar note shrink as much while over there as the other ones have back here, Manxman?!?!? ;) ;D