Hi i have just recieved a nice new smoker for xmas and have little idea what i am doing. I have started to read the forum, what a great place [:)].I have smoked a couple of chicken and pheasents. turned out great with a light smoked flavour. I covered both with olive oil, honey and a little orregano. and oak smoked for 2.5 hours. But the skin did not crisp up,could some one explain why[?] please. There seems to be a large number of cures out there, are they all shop bought?. They dont sell anything like that over here in the UK, so will have to make my own cure. I would be greatful for any help in the right direction. Thanks Buckshot [:D]
This site will explain why it is difficult to get crisp skin when you cook low and slow http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/chicken4.html . There are other theories out there, but I accept this one as the best explaination. Air drying the skin in the refrigerator helps some, and keeping your vent at least a 1/4 open to let most of the moisture escape is also useful.
When you speak of cures, are you talking about what us "Yanks" call brine, or curing meats with salts and/or nitrites.
thanks for the reply i will look it up now. There seems to be a lot of talk about various rubs and brines especialy BBB cure. These are not available in the Uk. so i would like to find some recipes for these.
The recipes for rubs, and brine that are posted on this board are home made, but there are commercial rubs out there. What you season your meat and poultry with is a personal choice. What you are doing with olive oil, honey and oregano looks pretty good, and I may give that a try myself. A recipe book called Smoke & Spice, by Cheryl and Bill Jamison has a lot of rub recipes, and some other useful information.
By the way, welcome to the forum.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But the skin did not crisp up,could some one explain why[?]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I don't understand this. Maybe it is the way I hold my mouth or something. The chicken below was done with the T-Shirt Method and if I remember correctly I just turned up the heat and remove it from the T-shirt the last 20-30 minutes or so.
The only thing I can think of was I used yellow skin chickens that have much-O fat in the skin. These came from Publix which has the greasiest yellow skin chicken you will ever see in your life. In fact, it takes some real hot water and a fair amount of dish soap to get the grease off of your hands.
White skin chicken = no or little fat. This is why most fast food chicken places only purchase white skin birds when possible. This is to reduce the free fatty acid in the cooking shortening--which will shorten the life of the shortening.
Its been awhile since I did any chicken so I will do a couple later this week and take a picture. Maybe I should do one white skin and one yellow skin chicken... ummm
One more thought and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the fat does not start to render out until it gets to 170 degrees F. I do my bird at a cooking temp of 190-195 give or take a few. This is a slow cook that allows a more even cooking of all meat. Plus I would think the heat caloris are not so over powering, due to the lower temp, allowing a cook of the whole bird more evenly. Once the breast of a bird gets to 160 degrees is when I turn up the heat etc..
Umm Kind of like a Prime Rib. You can cook it very hot and the outside will be well done but the very center rare also. Or you can cooked much slower and it is possible that the whole thing will be rare.
(http://www.dow-mgc.org/Rayeimages/chicken.jpg)
I remember the skin on this bird being very crisp.. Yepper I will do some chickens and report back.
Olds
http://rminor.com
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Buckshot</i>
<br />Hi i have just recieved a nice new smoker for xmas and have little idea what i am doing. I have started to read the forum, what a great place [:)].I have smoked a couple of chicken and pheasents. turned out great with a light smoked flavour. I covered both with olive oil, honey and a little orregano. and oak smoked for 2.5 hours. But the skin did not crisp up,could some one explain why[?] please. There seems to be a large number of cures out there, are they all shop bought?. They dont sell anything like that over here in the UK, so will have to make my own cure. I would be greatful for any help in the right direction. Thanks Buckshot [:D]
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Welcome to the forum, Guy! See the reply from Olds for more info. I just did a turkey this Christmas. Brined overnight in the frig, then air-dried the turkey in the frig for another day to dry out the skin. Cooked at 190-200 using the now-famous Olds T-shirt method, with the vent 1/2 open. Did not turn up the heat, and the skin was pretty crisp (although by the picture, Olds' might be even crispier . . .).
John
Newton MA
[/quote]Maybe I should do one white skin and one yellow skin chicken
One more thought and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the fat does not start to render out until it gets to 170 degrees F.
[/quote]
Hey Olds--you're sounding more and more like a scientist![:)]
You're right in general about the fat, although it does depend on not just the species of animal, but what it's been eating and what temp it was living at for the few days before it was slaughtered. I think the range can be 160-180, so 170 is smack in the middle, and 190+ should be safe in getting the fat out.
John
Newton MA
Here is another explaination of the difficulties of getting crisp skin while cooking at low temperatures.
Food chemist Harold McGee explains the difficulty of getting crisp skin as follows:
<font color="green"><i>"The skin of birds and other animals is mainly water (about 50%), fat (40%), and connective-tissue (3%). In order to crisp the skin, the cook must dissolve the leather collagen into tender gelatin in the skin's water, and then vaporize the water out of the skin. The high heat of a hot oven or frying pan does this most effectively; slow cooking at a low oven temperature can desiccate (dry out) the skin while its collagen is intact, and preserve its leatheriness.....It also helps to let the bird air-dry uncovered in a the refrigerator for a day or two."</i></font id="green">
I don't cook my chickens that well done. If I'm doing whole chickens, I will pull at 165 degrees F, measured at the thickess part of the thigh. My chickens look like that also, but I can't say the skin is crisp. Maybe crispness is relative to each individual person.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Habanero Smoker</i>
<br />Here is another explaination of the difficulties of getting crisp skin while cooking at low temperatures.
Food chemist Harold McGee explains the difficulty of getting crisp skin as follows:
<font color="green"><i>"The skin of birds and other animals is mainly water (about 50%), fat (40%), and connective-tissue (3%). In order to crisp the skin, the cook must dissolve the leather collagen into tender gelatin in the skin's water, and then vaporize the water out of the skin. The high heat of a hot oven or frying pan does this most effectively; slow cooking at a low oven temperature can desiccate (dry out) the skin while its collagen is intact, and preserve its leatheriness.....It also helps to let the bird air-dry uncovered in a the refrigerator for a day or two."</i></font id="green">
I don't cook my chickens that well done. If I'm doing whole chickens, I will pull at 165 degrees F, measured at the thickess part of the thigh. My chickens look like that also, but I can't say the skin is crisp. Maybe crispness is relative to each individual person.
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Hi Habanero,
Can you tell me where the quote comes from? The explanation seems very incomplete to me from a biochemical/tissue architecture standpoint and I'm wondering if there is more that he wrote on the topic. I'll be happy to check it out and get back to you . . .
John
Newton MA
It's not the only thing he wrote on biochemical/tissue architecture standpoint. I was taking one section out of his book "On Food and Cooking; The Science and Lore of The Kitchen - Completely Revised and Updated; page 160. This is only a small referrence on The Keys to Crisp Skin. I have his book.
What would you say was incomplete about it?
I agree that you can't get a "Freid Chicken" type crisp, although you can get a, I would say a crisp skin that lends itself more to the crispy side than the "rubbery" by doing what Olds said.
About 158 internal or so: open the vent and crank the heat all the way up untill you have your finished internal temp. If you leave the vent mostly closed you could get a "rubbery skin" product. Just my 2.3cents worth on a rainy afternoon.
USC SUCKS CANAL WATER!
SmokeOn,
(http://www.azbbqa.com/forum/phpbb2/images/avatars/gallery/AZBBQA/mallardsmall.gif)
mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie
If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know. But...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Habanero Smoker</i>
<br />It's not the only thing he wrote on biochemical/tissue architecture standpoint. I was taking one section out of his book "On Food and Cooking; The Science and Lore of The Kitchen - Completely Revised and Updated; page 160. This is only a small referrence on The Keys to Crisp Skin. I have his book.
What would you say was incomplete about it?
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Hi Habanero,
The incomplete reference was to the quote focusing on the biochemical composition of skin. The range of chemical composition of both bird and mammmal skin is enormous, and the interaction between fat, water , complex sugars and protein is very important in determining "turgidity" (rubbery vs. watery vs. crisp, for example). So the explanation seemed overly simplistic, but not incorrect.
Having said that, I looked into this a bit more because you had piqued my curiosity. McGee is very well trained and highly regarded. My reaction was one who has studied the biochemistry of cell and tissue architecture for 30 years, and that is not the audience he is addressing. Ironically, I heard him do an extended interview on NPR just a couple of hours ago, and he was very impressive as well as accurate.
Hope I didn't sound disparaging or negative in my previous remarks--McGee is obviously smart and has much more to contribute on food chemistry than I could ever hope to. I think my main point is that often there is more to the science than meets the eye . . .
BTW, I plan to pick up his new book, so thanks for tipping me off!
John
Newton MA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by MallardWacker</i>
<br />I agree that you can't get a "Freid Chicken" type crisp, although you can get a, I would say a crisp skin that lends itself more to the crispy side than the "rubbery" by doing what Olds said.
About 158 internal or so: open the vent and crank the heat all the way up untill you have your finished internal temp. If you leave the vent mostly closed you could get a "rubbery skin" product. Just my 2.3cents worth on a rainy afternoon.
USC SUCKS CANAL WATER!
SmokeOn,
(http://www.azbbqa.com/forum/phpbb2/images/avatars/gallery/AZBBQA/mallardsmall.gif)
mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie
If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know. But...
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Agreed (not about USC--I'm, ummm, neutral on that one . . .). I can get skins that are acceptably crisp when I smoke . . . they are not rubbery in any sense, but they are certaily not as crisp as when I fry the bird.
John
Newton MA
JC2;
When I took a course at the Culinary Institute of America back in August, is when I became interested in the chemistry of cooking. They placed just as much emphasis on what was occuring during to the food, as to the preparation. They recommended his books, and I am glad I purchased it.
As there is often more to the science than meets the eye; there is often more than one point of view. Glad you are getting the book.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Habanero Smoker</i>
<br />JC2;
When I took a course at the Culinary Institute of America back in August, is when I became interested in the chemistry of cooking. They placed just as much emphasis on what was occuring during to the food, as to the preparation. They recommended his books, and I am glad I purchased it.
As there is often more to the science than meets the eye; there is often more than one point of view. Glad you are getting the book.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Well said, HS--and point well taken!
John
Newton MA
Thanks everyone for the help [:D]
It has got me thinking and i will try out what you have said.
Just one more question, how hot should the smoker get my hits a high of about 200 with the outside temp about 60. I am useing the smoker in a shed so there is no wind problem. is this right.
Thanks for the welcome
Buckshot
If you are using Fahrenheit measurement, I usually cook mine at 200-210 degrees F, but I seen some post in which some went as high as 250.
Buckshot I would call Bradley; that sounds a tad low to me. That is only 140 F degree rise. At 80-90 degrees mine will hit 300 plus without any problems...not that I smoke at that high temp--which I don't,
Bradley are great folks to talk to, and stand behind what they make.
Olds
http://rminor.com
Buckshot,
I would definitely call Bradley. In fact, I have been experiencing the same problem with my new BS, and Cassandra Walker at Bradley has been great to deal with. The first thing she will recommend is checking to make sure that another good-quality thermometer is also registering pretty close to your BS gauge. If it's not, the BS thermometer could be the problem, and I'm sure they'll replace it no problem. Assuming that the BS gauge is reasonably accurate, the heating element is probably the culprit and I'm sure they will take care of you on that one, too. My unit, though "new" and shipped to me in mid-December, had the older glass heating element in it. The newer stainless steel element they are sending me is not only sturdier, it heats up a bit hotter as well.
Hope this helps,
John
Newton MA
I just experienced the same thing with mine. There was a 30 + degree difference between the Mav and the BS thermo and the unit would only heat to 190 on the door thermo... when I turn the power slider all the way to the right the light would go out and it would stop heating. Had to get a replacement temp slider, plugged it in after that let it heat for 20 minutes at 30 degrees outside and it was at 275, so it seemes to be the fix.
Good Afternoon Habanero & JJC,
After reading your threads there, regarding Mr. Harold McGee, I feel the need to visit my local Chapters and order his book. Thanx very much for the lead.
Ian <b>( GO STEELERS!!!!!! )</b>
Good Afternoon Mallard Wacker,
USC sucks canal water? Can I assume that would be what we might refer to as swamp water or bog? LOL!!!![:D]
Ian <b>( GO STEELERS!!!! )</b>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JJC</i>
<br />Cassandra Walker at Bradley has been great to deal with....My unit, though "new" and shipped to me in mid-December, had the older glass heating element in it. The newer stainless steel element they are sending me is not only sturdier, it heats up a bit hotter as well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Absolutely agree about Cassandra, she's top-notch!
Man, somebody doesn't turn their inventory very often. The SS bulbs were an improvement change LAST January!
I know I've posted this before, but in case you didn't see it John: When replacing the heater bulb, make sure to only snug the screws to just tight. If you crank on them, you will crack the ceramic holders.
Kirk
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Chez Bubba</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JJC</i>
<br />Cassandra Walker at Bradley has been great to deal with....My unit, though "new" and shipped to me in mid-December, had the older glass heating element in it. The newer stainless steel element they are sending me is not only sturdier, it heats up a bit hotter as well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Absolutely agree about Cassandra, she's top-notch!
Man, somebody doesn't turn their inventory very often. The SS bulbs were an improvement change LAST January!
I know I've posted this before, but in case you didn't see it John: When replacing the heater bulb, make sure to only snug the screws to just tight. If you crank on them, you will crack the ceramic holders.
Kirk
http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
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Thanks for rubbing it in that I bought my BS at the wrong place [:D]
I really do appreciate the word of warning on the screws. BTW, Cassandra is also sending me a new temp controller in case that's the problem. She could have just sent one item or the other in case that worked, but she didn't want me to have to wait any longer than necessary to have a fully functional unit. That's really customer service!
John
Newton MA
They shipped me a new heater element by mistake instead of the heater control. They told me to keep it and upgrade the glass one I had... went to do that and I didn't have a glass one already had the SS so I have a spare.
Also when you go to replace that temp control notice how lightly the screws (in the cover and body) are tightened and when you put them back in make sure you only lightly snug them. 4 of mine were already stripped before I even took a screwdriver too them. I called them and they weren't too concerned about it, said it only holds sheet metal, so just a word of warning so you don't strip any.