BRADLEY SMOKER | "Taste the Great Outdoors"

Recipe Discussions => Meat => Topic started by: hawsfli on February 10, 2004, 08:27:28 pm

Title: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: hawsfli on February 10, 2004, 08:27:28 pm
I'm an old (66)sometimes competition  Q smoker. Due to my advancing age with its infermaties am now looking for a way to get quality Q without staying up all night. Hence the BS. My question is related to quality. Good Q must have a nice bark on it which, I believe, comes from long slow cooking with adequate rubs & smoke.  When cooking butts or brisket will the BS develope a good bark on the meat? I am concerned because there hasn't been any posts on the forum related to pulled pork or cooking packer briskets.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Chez Bubba on February 11, 2004, 01:05:13 am
hawsfli,

The Bradley will do what you're wanting as long as you don't try to cram 40 pounds of meat into it. If the top vent is open to allow the steam to escape & there is plenty of room for the air to convect around the meat, you'll get Mr. Brown

Interestingly, I was watching a show on the Food Network recently where they followed several groups of competition smokers around the country. While they all had the huge Texas pits to feed the masses, 3 of the 6 or 7 groups used a Bradley smoker to cook their entries for the judges!

We're on the same page with butts, good dry rub, long & slow cookin'. I like to throw mine in before I go to bed so sometime after I get up the next day they're ready for shreddin'.

66 isn't that old, I bet you've got at least another 20 years of smokin' in ya![:)]

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: trout on February 12, 2004, 12:13:30 am
I have smoked pork butts several times in my Bradley.  It is one of my favorite and easiest things to smoke.  I use a couple rub recipes from "smoke and spice" book.  I rub them down the night before, then in the morning I load up about 2hrs worth of smoke biscuits and set the heat for about 200degrees.  I let it go undisturbed for 8 or 10 hours and it comes out great.  Definitely has a good bark and very very moist inside.  It just falls apart.  The only thing I ever messed up was one time leaving the roast net that the store put on the pork butt while smoking.  the strings were so stuck in the bark that I had to throw most of it away.[:(!] Oh well live and learn.
have fun[:D]
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: hawsfli on February 12, 2004, 07:20:39 pm
Chez, The rules must be different in Texas.  Up here in the Northwest (PNWBA) who operate under KCBS rules we can not use a BS for competition cooking because the heat source has to be from wood. Since the BS is electric it is out.  The Treager gets around it since the heat source is the burning pellets.  Have you heard of anyone that has made a comparison for quality between the BS and a Treager. Just wondering.[:)]
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: MallardWacker on February 12, 2004, 07:37:50 pm
Trout,

When you smoke your butts, how open is the vent through your smoking process?  Many Thanks.

SmokeOn,

mski

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know.  But...

Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: trout on February 12, 2004, 11:35:49 pm
When I smoke a pork butt, I just crack the vent a little bit.  I get a lot of moisture buildup inside the smoker, but still get a really good bark and have not seen any problems from the moisture yet.[:D]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Chez Bubba on February 13, 2004, 01:57:26 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by hawsfli</i>
<br />Chez, The rules must be different in Texas.  Up here in the Northwest (PNWBA) who operate under KCBS rules we can not use a BS for competition cooking because the heat source has to be from wood. Since the BS is electric it is out.  The Treager gets around it since the heat source is the burning pellets.  Have you heard of anyone that has made a comparison for quality between the BS and a Treager. Just wondering.[:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I thought the show I watched featured a Q contest in KC, but memory can be a fleeting thing.

I had to search Traeger's site to become familiar with them, and no, I've never had anyone give me a direct comparison between the two. For what it's worth, here is my opinion:

Depending on the model you choose, the Bradley is 1/2 to 1/8th the cost for the smoker. Operating costs seem to be about equal.

They're significantly heavier than the Bradley, which may or may not be an issue for you.

I firmly believe that the smoker you use and the wood that you use are minor components in the finished product. You HAVE to have quality meat & spices and proper preparation. The smoker you choose is about it's convenience for you. For me, the Bradley fits the bill.

I've been to a bunch of BBQ festivals (not as a cooking participant) and usually my reaction is "I can beat this". I guess my point is, if an idiot spends $3000 on a smoker, that does not guarantee him good food. Someone with experience & knowledge can prepare a much superior meal on a $50 Weber. It's all about convenience.

Smoke on[8D],

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: MallardWacker on February 13, 2004, 07:25:03 pm
Trout Man,

What type of butts do you use.  With or with out the bone?  I know buying it with bone is MUCH cheaper.  I can debone it with no problem.  What would you rather have??  Anybody else have a word on this??



SmokeOn,

mski

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know.  But...

Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: trout on February 14, 2004, 12:52:13 am
I buy boneless hormel porkbutt.  They run about 99cents/lb usually here.  The only downfall is they come in a roast netting, which will hopelessly get glued into the bark if you leave it on as I once found out.[:(!]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: trout on March 09, 2004, 01:59:19 am
I've got a brisket marinating in the fridge for tomorrow.  It's taking a bath in beer, cider vinegar, oil, onion, chipotle peppers and a little rub mix.  Tomorrow it will get a rub of black pepper, seasoned salt, brown sugar, paprika and chili powder.  (recipe from Smoke and Spice).  I will post tomorrow night while I am taste testing. [^]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: trout on March 09, 2004, 08:46:57 pm
Just pulled out my brisket.  Yummmmmmm.  I smoked it for about 3 1/2 hours and then wrapped it in foil and left it in at 225F for about 2 more hours.  Tasty stuff, but it didnt get a good bark like the pork butts that I don't finish off in foil.  I wonder, would it be good if I didnt wrap it in foil at the end, or would it dry out without mopping it.  My pork doesnt dry out, but it has much more fat inside the meat than brisket.  Anybody done alot of brisket on the Bradley[?]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 10, 2004, 01:17:15 am
You guys got me wanting to run out and buy a porky butt!

Hey Kirk:  I was watching the Food Network this weekend and they had a Tennessee Q (Jack Daniles of course!)  Lots of pit smokers but you were right about the Bradleys - there they were in the background along with some cannister models...

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Regforte on March 10, 2004, 05:03:42 pm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by trout</i>
<br />
I wonder, would it be good if I didnt wrap it in foil at the end, or would it dry out without mopping it.  
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Trout, I'm a firm believer that if you start with a quality cut of meat, be it beef or pig or whatever, you should be able to cook without foil and get a good result with no dryness problems.

The Bradley is an enclosed box with a comparatively small amount of airflow and high humidity, so if it comes out dry it's either not cooked right or it's a problem with meat quality. Give it a try with a well marbled cut without the foil and see how it comes out.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Chez Bubba on March 11, 2004, 01:28:04 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Regforte</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by trout</i>
<br />
I wonder, would it be good if I didnt wrap it in foil at the end, or would it dry out without mopping it.  
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Trout, I'm a firm believer that if you start with a quality cut of meat, be it beef or pig or whatever, you should be able to cook without foil and get a good result with no dryness problems.

The Bradley is an enclosed box with a comparatively small amount of airflow and high humidity, so if it comes out dry it's either not cooked right or it's a problem with meat quality. Give it a try with a well marbled cut without the foil and see how it comes out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Excellent advice.

The problem today with the big supermarkets is that they tend to trim a lot of the fat caps off roasts to make them appear more "healthy". Fat doesn't weigh nearly as much as meat and with it being "a healthier cut", they can get another buck or two a pound for it.

Smokin' was designed for those fatty pieces nobody wanted. It's process will turn that piece of "waste meat" into some of the best food ever to pass your lips.

Seek out a smaller meat vendor or a supermarket butcher that will give you the real thing. Or, wait for the big boys to have their sale on the untrimmed "in the bag" whole cuts & trim them to your liking.

Smoke on & bust the system[8D],

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 18, 2004, 01:35:19 pm
Ok smokers, I'm printing this topic and "first try at pork" to try and combine the two for a butt this weekend..the part I'm missing of course (no book) is the rub---which rubs (ingredients please) are being used from the SMoke and Spice??[?]

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Bassman on March 18, 2004, 02:25:02 pm
Fuzzy,
Here are the ingredients from one of the easier rub recipes from S&S.
3/4 cup paprika
1/4 cup black pepper
1/4 cup coarse salt
1/4 cup sugar
2 tablespoons Chili powder
2 tablespoons garlic powder
2 tablespoons onion powder
2 teaspoons cayenne
Of coarse any of this can be adjusted to personal taste.I used this on a Pork Butt once and liked it.Good luck with your Butt[:)]. As I type this I have one in the smoker. put it in at 7:30 this morning, plan on leaving it there for 10 hrs. I didn't use this rub though I made one up of my own.I'll be sure to post the results.

<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 18, 2004, 03:00:08 pm
Thanks Jack...do you think this would be to spicy for gramma?  She can't take the heat!

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: MallardWacker on March 18, 2004, 03:17:01 pm
Fuzzy Dude,

Just smoked two butts this past Sunday night.  (had some friends have their home burn and gave them one).  May I suggest when you get your butts ready to come out, rap them in foil then rap them in an old bath towl for at least two hours.  Buddy this WILL make a difference.

Got the report back from my freinds yesturday, they loved it.  It is so fun to give someone something that they really enjoy.  Butts are so easy and it seems you have slaved for hours and it sure beats another bean casarole.
(http://www.azbbqa.com/Images/pigsmile.jpg)

SmokeOn,

mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know.  But...

Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Bassman on March 18, 2004, 04:05:31 pm
Mr. Mallard, What is the purpose in wrapping a towel around the Butt?

<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>

Mr.Fuzzy, It might be to hot for Gramma,This recipe has quite a zing to it,at least for my taste it does,I like some zing but not alot. you can cut back on the cayanne if you want to.or adjust it anyway you like.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Chez Bubba on March 19, 2004, 02:29:02 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bassman</i>
<br />Good luck with your Butt[:)].<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Amazing how as we get older, our priorities change, huh?[:D][:D][:D]

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 19, 2004, 04:50:20 am
Yeah, Although habeneros would be fine for me, gramma can't take the heat so I'll just eliminate the cayenne altogether...I can't wait for SUnday morning at 5 a.m to warm up the Bradley , the in goes the pork.
Dinner at 6!

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Bassman on March 19, 2004, 02:44:12 pm
Yesterday I made a 6lb pork butt.bought it with the bone in but removed it before I applied the rub. smoked it for 9 1/2 hrs with hickory.Internal meat temp was 185F when I removed it.covered it and let it sit for an hour before I very easily shredded it apart with 2 forks.TOTALLY AWESOME!!!best one yet![:p][:D][^]very moist inside with excellent flavor.
Here's a question,I have heard that meat will only absorb smoke for 4 to 5 hrs. Is this true? has anybody else heard this? Even after 9 1/2 hrs of smoke it was not over powering. Maybe I just like alot of smoke flavor[:D]

<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 19, 2004, 02:56:41 pm
I wish it were Sunday already!!! - it appears that as more of us do the butt thing, internal temps of 185 to 200 seem about perfect...still, that's a huge discrepancy - I'm thinking that the 185 meat is still cooking after short time after taking out of the Bradley...since my dinner party will be requiring food promptly at 6:00pm on Sunday, if I put it in at 6 a.m. - it should be done around 4PM, enough time to let it sit - mines a 6lb bone in.

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Bassman on March 19, 2004, 03:05:31 pm
Fuzzy,The books say the internal meat temp will rise 5 degrees AFTER you remove it from the heat source. At 185F I took it out which means The temp was actually 190F.Although I didn't check it,at that point I didn't care I just wanted to tear into it. I think the 185 mark is needed so that the pork will shred.Anything above that is for the patient. Which doesn't include me[:)]

<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: trout on March 19, 2004, 03:42:46 pm
I can honestly say that I have never checked the internal temp of a pork butt after smoking about 10hrs at 200-225F.  In my opinion it is just like cooking a roast in a crock pot all day while you are at work.  The internal temp is going to be way past done, but it will be super tender because it was heated slowly causing all the fat and connective tissue to break down leaving fall apart tender meat.  The first pork butt I did on a traditional pit I monitored the temp and removed it at 185F or so.  It was o.k. but it didnt fall apart like the ones I make now.  My guess is it came to temp too quickly.[:(!]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 19, 2004, 04:07:55 pm
Are we a bunch of pork piggies or what?[:D]

Bassman:  Like you, sniffing the aroma of meat cooking all day will tempt my patience too!

Low and slow is the way to go

(http://www.thepetprofessor.com/SubsImages/FreePhotos/348_O.jpg)

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: MallardWacker on March 19, 2004, 11:44:43 pm
Bassman,

I got this little novel idea from someone from the Arizona BBQ Assoc.  He did say why but this my thought:  When you wrap it with foil it doesn't let any moisture out and when you wrap it with a towl I beleive it just keeps the cooking process going for a longer period of time.  This guy that sugested this even puts the wrapped butt in a (non-cooled) cooler.  All I know is that the butts I do this way simply are the most tender and most complimented peice of meat I have smoked.  It works well for me.
(http://www.azbbqa.com/yabbse/YaBBImages/avatars/singingpig.jpg)

SmokeOn,

mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know.  But...

Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 21, 2004, 02:29:26 am
Ok pork buddies....I used Bassmans' (Jack) recipie omitting the cayenne pepper but I kinda eyeballed all the ingredients save the onion powder...didn't have any...but that's ok (by the way, I am using that uppity snooty salt stuff from France[:D] and brown sugar)....I put the rub on about 2:30pm PST and will fire up the Bradley tomrrow approximately 5:00a.m.PST to pre-heat, then will unwrap the butt (6 pounder-bone in) and place in the smoker at 6:00a.m.pst...

I will be using 5 hours of apple pucks - I will take a digipic and place on Old's site (thanks man) and then post here later tomorrow night (after dinner!)

The grape is having it's effect and I apologize for spelling errors![|)]

I can't stand waiting overnight to fire up the Bradley![;)]

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 22, 2004, 03:21:42 pm
Ok,...I'm embarresed to say I have not uploaded the pics yet - unfortunately, they are "after dinner" as I couldn't wait to tear into the butt[:p]  So, what you will see are two plates consisiting of "leftovoers" when I get them up. [:D]

The 6 pounder was in the Bradley for 11 1/2 hours!!  I yanked it at 5:15 pm PST at 183 degrees (internal), let it rest for 45 minutes and am proud to say that my first attempt at the butt was excellent - we fed four people and I've got lunch today with still some left over!

It had an excellent, dark bark that tasted every bit as good as what it was holding inside.

The Bradley waffled between 200 and 245 and I had to keep adjusting the temp to keep it as close as possible to 225 (which I was pretty successful at but had to eyeball it dang near every hour) - temp fluctuation was due to (1) 6:00a.m low temp of about 58 degrees, mid-afternoon temp around 79 degrees[8D] and late afternoon temp around 70 degrees (outside) along with a little bit of wind.

I'll be doing this again for sure!  Next week is a whole buzzard - probably in the 10lb range...I'm thinking I'll handle it like the yard bird....160-165 in the breast/180 in the thigh, dry rub overnight, maple pucks - I expect this venture to take between 6 and 8 hours...

Keep smokin!

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Bassman on March 22, 2004, 03:48:31 pm
Fuzzy congratulations on your smoking success!can't wait to see the pics.[:p]

<i><font color="blue"><b>Jack</i></font id="blue"></b>
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 23, 2004, 12:59:15 am
Ok, here they are!!

(http://www.getbentsportfishing.com/portal/forum/uploads/FUZZYBEAR/P1010002.JPG)

(http://www.getbentsportfishing.com/portal/forum/uploads/FUZZYBEAR/P1010001.JPG)

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Chez Bubba on March 24, 2004, 12:07:06 am
Fuzz,

I'm just glad ya switched from Dawn to gin![;)][:D]

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 24, 2004, 01:45:26 pm
I see you found my fondness for Blue Sapphire Gin......yep, Friday after a long week of work, it calls me!

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: MallardWacker on March 24, 2004, 09:42:49 pm
Here is a little trit I found at the Arizona BBQ Association.  I think it explains it well about Brisket.

<font color="blue">What I've learned through trial & error, as well as reading a lot on BBQ websites is:

1. Trim the fat cap down, as Lane said, to about 1/4". Supposedly the brisket's fat is more tallow-like and doesn't let the smoke penetrate a thick fat cap.

2. A brisket is like a sponge when it comes to smoke. That's why many competitors wrap it is foil halfway (some pour in a half a beer) through the cooking process. This keeps it from over-smoking and preserves moisture. (This is heresy to Paul Kirk, much like wearing a helmet is to old hockey players. But if it works, I say go for it.)

3. The best briskets are the most flexible ones when raw. Pick 'em up in the store. Some will almost fold in half. Others are as stiff as a board.

4. Look for one that is more even in thickness from one end to the other. It cooks more evenly.

5. Limit your rub to a simple salt, pepper & garlic mixture. Traditional Texas brisket rubs never have sugar or a lot of complicated blends. Some of the most famous Texas joints don't use anything other than a salt water mop.

6. Use oak, mesquite or pecan. Or a mixture of any of them. Hickory & brisket don't really mix.

7. Mop your brisket occasionally. Unlike pork butt, brisket doesn't have the marbling to be self-basting. Unless you are using a water smoker or ceramic cooker.

8. Remember the old adage of "fat side up" when cooking with indirect heat like on an offset cooker. This line was written for brisket. But then some oldtimers say leave the fat side down so gravity will let your seasoning that lies directly on the meat to migrate down. I often use fat side down if I'm cooking over direct heat in my Kamado. It acts as a "heat shield" to protect the meat.

9. Cook it to an internal temperature of 195 to 205. 200 degrees is a nice easy number to remember. many people recommend that you take it out, wrap it tightly in foil and then put it into a thermal bag or wrapped in towels to retain the heat and let the juices settle back into the meat.</font id="blue">

I must try this some day...
(http://www.desertscapeit.com/Images/smilincow.gif)

SmokeOn,

mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know.  But...

Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Chez Bubba on March 25, 2004, 01:13:32 am
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Fuzzybear</i>
<br />I see you found my fondness for Blue Sapphire Gin......yep, Friday after a long week of work, it calls me!

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I love the stuff but hardly ever drink it. I love it too much. 1 G&T turns into a 50/50 which quickly goes to straight gin. Not a good long-term party plan![:D]

Maybe that's why I love to incorporate juniper berries into the marinade for pork loin. All the flavor, a whole bunch safer! It's harder to be stupid with beer.[:I]

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: trout on March 25, 2004, 02:27:32 am
Do ya want to have a little fun at work.  Put a plate of brisket or pork but in the microwave at work and heat it up while everyone else is cooking their horrible mini hotpocket[xx(] type excuses for a lunch. You should here the comments when I do this.  It fills the whole room with the smell of a weekend barbeque.  Can you say ENVY[^][^]  It's sad that so many people are so lazy or in a hurry to take the time to do a little work, kick back a few hours, and produce a real treat.

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.
Title: Re: Bark on the Butts/Brisket
Post by: Fuzzybear on March 25, 2004, 01:21:30 pm
Kirk:  I know what you mean man...after number 1, if my wife asks me to go mix some more, I tend to tip the bottle a little more heavy on round two into my glass!  It goes something like this: #1 - 1 jigger/ice/perrier lime water....#2 1 jigger and a loose pour/what ice I can get in the glass/and a little bit of perrier! #3 1 jigger and another loose pour....after that I can't function well[xx(] so I hang it up and hit the sack.  The stuff is addictive for sure!  Don't get me wrong, I'm not a rummy by any sense of the word, but I sure enjoy my Friday nights!

Trout:  I like your idea and will have to do that!  We've got 7 microwaves (400 person building) and the stuff they bring in stinks! TV Dinners/leftover rice bleah!  Now I gotta do another butt![;)]

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!