I want to make a fire proof/resistant "home" for my OBS when I move to South Dakota this summer. The house has a 2 stall detached garage, and I'd like to build its "home" inside the garage for all-year smoking which would include some version of a vent hood quite a few of you have built.
I want a fire proof/resistant enclosure to keep an accidental fire contained on an over night smoke so I can reduce the possibility of burning down the garage.
A couple ideas I have thought of:
- cement block enclosure with a light weight steel door
- firewall sheet rock, and use aluminum or steel angle iron for framing
What inputs do you have? Are these reasonable? Other ideas I haven't thought of?
I'd most likely modify my Maverick thermometer antenna for long range use, set the alarm as a high temp warning, and keep that on too.
I'm sure quite a few people run their Bradley in the garage all nite w/out any problems. But I don't want to be that small percent that gets a fire and then burn my garage down. Currently I run it during the day only, and I'm always home to keep an eye on it.
Thanks
drano
I don't know if you have added a second element to your Bradley,
but if you have you have you may want to consider putting the
added element on it's own Thermo fuse.
That way in the event of a temp rise you would totaly shut down
electricity to the elements.
I would think most fires in the Bradley are from Human errors.
I have started taking out the dirty V-tray before I got to bed on an
overnite smoke and replacing it with a clean one.
(I have two Bradley's, but you can buy another V-tray for it)
Also, I use an over size water pan and fill it before bedtime.
Those three things just about covers all the bad things that
can happen in your Bradley.
I do like your Idea of a "Fire proof/resistant enclosure.
CRG,
Thanks for the quick response.
I currently have one element, but want to add a second after I get settled in. Sounds smart to have both elements protected w/ a thermo fuse. And so does the extra v-tray and larger water pan.
I currently do a rack of spare ribs or a 3 lb pork butt, and a couple times a year I do some sausage/snack sticks. However, I want to do bigger hunks of meat and load it up more w/ sausage, so a safe over nite smoke would be nice.
All inputs/ideas welcome.
That's great thinking. It's not so simple once you get into the details. If you build this as an enclosure to be effective you will need to be able to close it when left unattended, but it will need a spark arresting intake vent down low to be able to draw air for the exhaust. Related, the exhaust for such a "room" would need to be constructed to kitchen ventilation standards - if you ever did have a fire get going the vent itself becomes an issue (fanning a fire).
A few thoughts. First, I believe you can build a very reasonable fire resistant enclosure with wood framing covered inside (where the smoker will be) with 5/8" dry wall. That's the standard generally followed for UBC construction on garage interiors attached to living spaces. If you wanted to go overboard you could go thicker by adding layers, such as 3/8" over 5/8". Add a fire-rated door or build one again with 5/8" drywall as the interior and you should have a decent enclosure. Second, add a heat rise detector in the immediate area. This functions like a smoke detector but uses temperature rise instead of smoke. Finally, if you want to get really safe you could add an automatic discharge fire extinguisher like those used in the engine compartments of boats, something like this
http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/CG2-fire-extinguisher.htm
If you want to add the auto discharge extinguisher you'll want the HFC-227 version (the other not good for human exposure). For a small volume they aren't that expensive and installation is simply hang it in the right place. You can get an idea of price here (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_96192_-1?cid=chanintel&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=96192)
I knew there were some building experts on this forum!
I guess the simple idea is full of limitations.
Maybe I'll do a basic drywall box with enough venting to let it breath. That would possibly contain a fire, but not create the issues of keeping it fully sealed. And the heat rise detector would be a great safety feature to catch it early.
thanks for the input!
drano
Drano,
I'm not trying to minimize the risk of a fire in your Bradley but as near as I can remember I have never heard of anyone burning down their house/garage/well house/ from a fire in the Bradley. I truly understand your concern. I have seen pics of fires in a Bradley and the Bradley contained it very well.
I urge you to do whatever you feel you need to do to keep your family safe.
Enclosed doesn't mean sealed - you still need air flow and exhaust to remove both heat and smoke (think about your kitchen). I think a reasonable model to consider is the engine room on a smallish express cruiser. For example, a 33 foot Sea Ray has an engine compartment that is about 10 feet square and 5 feet deep - 500 cu. ft. In that "room" there are two big block GM engines. It takes a lot of forced ventilation to keep things from getting out of control temperature wise (and fume wise too). Still an auto discharge extinguisher is added in case something does get started.
In restaurants they use ventilated hoods (and add the auto discharge extinguisher too). Another way of thinking through it is to consider how to safely contain a burning fire within a building structure. The fireplace comes to mind - just need a tall, big fireplace.
I knew the fire expert would come in handy. Good info BLSH again.
I think KyNola has a good point. Going beyond that, a heat sensor setup that would cut off power to the Bradley and sound an alarm would help. Then, of course, there's a sprinkler system, Halon (if they still use it) or CO2. Personally, I'd go for a system to put out a fire in case it ever happened rather than to try to enclose it.
You selling that Sea Ray Eric ??? ???
To build a "fire resistive" room and to be considered a "fire resistive" room then you will have to have 2 layers of 5/8 inch sheet rock on both sides of the stud wall. This means you put up 1 layer of 5/8 inch on the inside then you tape and seal it then cover it again with another layer of 5/8 inch and tape and seal it. Then on the outer wall you do the same thing. This will then be considered a 2 hr rated fire wall. Then of course you will have to invest in a 2hr fire rated door which can be a solid core wood door or a metal insulated door. Then you have to consider ventilation to take fresh air to replace the air that the smoker is ejecting to the outside during the smoke. Once you cut a ventilation hole or slot you no longer have the 2 hr rated room. So that means that you will have to install a vent that has a Guillotine type fire damper on a fusible link that will melt and slam the shutters closed to seal the room. Pretty expensive to do and wonder if it would be worth the piece of mind to do this.
A better option would be to construct a simple room with a 1 hr rating of one layer of 5/8 inch sheet rock on each side and a door. You could spend lots of money putting in a UL 300 compliant fire suppression device however that is very expensive. I would do a poor mans version of fire suppression. I would install a 1 inch steel pipe through the wall at the top and fit a sprinkler head rated at 286 degrees and hook up a garden hose to the pipe. Turn on the water when you go to bed and if you get a fire the sprinkler head will go off and extinguish the fire. For a sprinkler head to properly activate and give the correct size of water droplets you need to have at least 15 psi of water pressure at the sprinkler head.
To reduce the risk of a fire make sure the smoke is finished before you go to bed and that the pucks have been ejected into the water. The heating element is shielded by the V tray and fats should not drip on the element thus reducing the exposure of fire.
The main thing to remember is that you have to have 3 things to have a fire and they all have to come together under certain conditions to have the fire. You have to have heat, oxygen and fuel. If you remove any of the elements the fire will go out. Since the Bradley is pretty much sealed, any fire that starts inside will rapidly consume the oxygen and the fire "should" self extinguish before it breaks out of its containment. If you keep a pan of water to catch the grease dripping you are taking a lot of the fuel away. The heating element is cycling on and off which is reducing the heat factor.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled smoke. ;D
And you should hear what the guy who taught sailor had to say about this. :D :D :D
Sailor - Sounds like you been there, done that :D
Quote from: classicrockgriller on May 14, 2010, 05:00:15 PM
I don't know if you have added a second element to your Bradley,
but if you have you have you may want to consider putting the
added element on it's own Thermo fuse.
That way in the event of a temp rise you would totaly shut down
electricity to the elements.
I would think most fires in the Bradley are from Human errors.
I have started taking out the dirty V-tray before I got to bed on an
overnite smoke and replacing it with a clean one.
(I have two Bradley's, but you can buy another V-tray for it)
Also, I use an over size water pan and fill it before bedtime.
Those three things just about covers all the bad things that
can happen in your Bradley.
I do like your Idea of a "Fire proof/resistant enclosure.
I totally agree with you!
First time I have been right in a while.
LOL....Fire/Arson investigator for 13 years. Then went to work for an insurance company in loss control which dealt with fire pumps, sprinkler systems, building construction and special hazards. Tried to stop a fire before it started. Now I own a loss control consulting firm and do work for major insurance companies doing the same thing. Trying to engineer a building to not have a fire and if a fire starts to keep it from spreading. Insurance companies get a bit upset losing a 10 million dollar plant. :o
I think BLSH was in the same type of racket. You 2 should get along well.
Quote from: classicrockgriller on May 14, 2010, 09:12:37 PM
[
First time I have been right in a while.
Aw c'mon Sonny, I remember just last year ...
Sailor - your opinion please. You obviously have the experience and likely have a smoker or you wouldn't be here. What do you think the chances are of a Bradley catching on fire and burning down a structure?
Sailor be da man ! He knows what he is talking about. My experience is comparatively limited.
One other thing to think about is what else will be in that garage? Will you be storing any flammable liquids in there (think about fuel tanks on equipment as well)?
In then end, as Sailor has noted, the probability is fairly low but there is a risk. In truth you can never be risk free, you just manage risk to an acceptable level. You mentioned that the garage is detached, so the risk presumably should be easy to limit to loss of the structure and contents. You need then to decide for yourself how much you want to spend to further reduce that risk. In the end it may be more cost effective to use a small freestanding "shed" that you could stand to loose and can be safely located away from other structures as a housing for your smoker, and then possibly add the simple fused sprinkler head system Sailor describes.
BLSH, that is some very good thoughts.
And now you have turned him in a different direction that may be better.
The cost would be almost the same.
As sailor has mentioned, must reported fires in the Bradley were contained inside the smoker. It is when the user suspects the fire and opens the door that things can turn for the worse.
I'm not sure if you read the below link. It points out what steps you should take when you suspect a fire inside the smoker. I know this is separate form building a fireproof room, but it is good information to know.
If a Fire Happens in the Bradley (http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?488-Answers-To-Bradley-Smoker-FAQ-s&p=759#post759)
Quote from: ArnieM on May 14, 2010, 09:33:01 PM
Sailor - your opinion please. You obviously have the experience and likely have a smoker or you wouldn't be here. What do you think the chances are of a Bradley catching on fire and burning down a structure?
As a disclaimer I have to state that I currently do not or have not owned a Bradley. I intend to purchase one in the very near future. I have looked at them and fully understand the working principle of the smoker. When you ask, what are the chances of having a Bradley catching fire and burning down a structure I would have to respond with a saying that we have in the firefighting industry. You can build a "fire proof" building and have nothing in it and you can consider it as "fire proof" but once you allow a human access to it, it is no longer "fire proof" hence there is no such animal as a fire proof building and when man is involved things can and do catch fire.
The biggest exposure to fire occurs when applying smoke. The wood pucks are fuel and the system is designed to heat the pucks at a temperature of less than 300 degrees, which is less than the ignition temperature of wood but will allow the wood to smolder and give of smoke. The fuel is discarded after 20 minutes into a pan of water to extinguish the puck. If the puck advance fails and leaves a puck on the burner it may ignite because the puck has been transformed into a block of pyrophoric carbon and pyrophoric carbon can and will ignite at a temperature as low as 170 degrees F. If the puck ignites into a flame the flame could reach an area that has grease that formed from drippings and ignite the grease, which will then spread to other fuel sources such as the meat that you are smoking. To reduce the exposure of a puck fire one needs to make sure there is plenty of water in the pan to extinguish all pucks that are dropped into the pan. The use of "Bubba Pucks" should be used to push all of the wood pucks from the smoke generator. No fuel equals no fire.
Grease build up is another exposure in a Bradley or any other type of grill or smoker. After a smoke the shelves should be cleaned as well as the V tray and if there is any grease residue inside the Bradley it should be removed. I have had and I am sure that most of the members have had a grease fire in grill at one time or another. The flare-ups are caused by grease dripping onto the heat source being a propane flame, charcoal or wood. Grease is a fuel. Remove the fuel equals no fire.
Electrical wiring is another exposure to fire in a Bradley. The Bradley engineers designed the wiring for safe operation and any modifications to that wiring could expose the unit to a fire. The fusing that is supplied with the unit should never be replaced with a larger capacity fuse. Fusing as well as circuit breakers are designed for overcurrent protection to protect the wiring and are not designed to protect against fire. A short in the system will produce a tremendous amount of heat and if the overcurrent protection is disabled this heat will transfer to combustible materials and ignite. Remove the heat source equals no fire.
A Bradley smoker is like an oven except you can put smoke into it. There have been and will continue to be household oven fires. Most people will want to open the oven door and put out the fire. Opening the oven door will allow a flood of oxygen into the oven making the fire bigger. Keeping the door closed will allow the fire to consume the oxygen to less than 16% and the fire will self extinguish. A Bradley is the same; do not open the door if there is a fire inside. Close the vent and keep the door closed to allow the oxygen to deplete and the fire will go out. No oxygen equals no fire.
If you get a fire in the unit, you do not want it to spread. I would recommend that at least 16 inches separate the unit from any combustible material. If a unit is used in a garage or inside any building it should not be left unattended. If it is being used in a garage I would highly recommend that a smoke detector be installed to alert the occupants of a fire. There is a chance of the detector going off if you open the door while rolling smoke in the unit.
With all of that said, I would say the chances of having a fire in a Bradley are slim if the proper care and upkeep of the smoker is taken. I would not hesitate to operate a Bradley in my garage. I would not leave the house during the smoking process however I would not be uncomfortable to leave when the smoker is in the "cooking" stage.
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on May 15, 2010, 01:51:37 AM
As sailor has mentioned, must reported fires in the Bradley were contained inside the smoker. It is when the user suspects the fire and opens the door that things can turn for the worse.
I'm not sure if you read the below link. It points out what steps you should take when you suspect a fire inside the smoker. I know this is separate form building a fireproof room, but it is good information to know.
If a Fire Happens in the Bradley (http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?488-Answers-To-Bradley-Smoker-FAQ-s&p=759#post759)
The link supplied by Habanero Smoker is great and should be read by everyone using a Bradley.
The lesson to learn is DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR. Close the vent and starve the fire from oxygen. Remove the heat source, which means unplug the unit. You can't remove the fuel once a fire started but you can remove the oxygen and the heat source.
If I had a fire in a Bradley this is what I would do. I would keep a spray bottle of water near my Bradley. Prior to firing up the smoker I would make sure that the bottle is full of water and that the nozzle is set to spay a mist. If a fire were to start inside I would open the vent to the full open position and take my spray bottle and start spraying a mist inside the unit then close the vent and let the steam do its work. What I am doing is converting fine water particles into steam, which will cool the fire. Four or five pumps of a spray bottle should be enough to create enough steam to cool the biggest fire inside the smoker. I have not done a burn test on a unit with this technique to verify my firefighting theory however I am 99.9% sure that I could put out a raging fire using this technique.
Sorry for the long post ;D
Don't be sorry. This is all good stuff to think about ahead in the event it ever happens to you. An ounce of preparedness is worth a pound cure.
And for you clowns that have something to say like why would youd you use MTQ on a fire save it cause I already thought of that joke. ;D ;D
I'm not sure about the vent closure idea, since the Smoke generator has vents as well and the opening for the smoke generator would provide an air inlet.
Arnie;
Kummok is a retired fireman. He wrote the proceedure of what to do if a fire is suspected. I think he only reads a few threads, so you may want to PM him with that question.
Closing the vent greatly reduces (if not eliminate) the air draft..
Thanks Habs.
Wow,
Thanks everyone for the great replies!
I guess everyone is right, minimize risk on long cooks by completing the smoke before I go to bed, change the water, have a BIG water pan and clean or put in a new V tray. With all of that, I'd agree, the risk is greatly reduced. I still might build a 1 layer sheetrock simply to help hold anything in if it does burn up. And the smoke and/or heat detectors seam reasonable. The garage would normally have 2 vehicles, gas can, snow blower, lawn mower, etc. All of these should be removed to reduce risk in case the place does burn down.
The heat activated sprinkler head may not work in the winter (its in SD!) because the garage is not heated. If I ran a forced air kerosene heater, that becomes an additional fire hazard . . . Although I'm not sure how my dad never burned down a hog house when I grew up in MN--we used a forced air kerosene heater in the hog barns when we farrowed pigs in the winter. Corn cob bedding, straw, dust everywhere. And the heaters generally threw a few sparks every time they started up. Lots of risk, but we some how averted it for over 30 years.
I agree, some kind of small building away from buildings would be a great idea. But again, I'll be in SD, and plan to smoke all year. Being able to check the smoker while inside would be great in January. Or, I could make a small storage shed out of the way, add electricity, and then I would be sheltered when I am checking on a smoke. Probably the best solution, just need to see what it costs.
Thanks again for all the great inputs. I'm always amazed how we always get great answers to any question.
keep smokin
drano
It seems to me that all the practical aspects have been well addressed and Sailor has provided some great information. Made me think more than usual and take a few extra precautions as I did a brisket this weekend on a long overnight smoke.
There is one other issue that came to my mind, and I am not sure I should even raise it (some questions are best left unasked). Maybe Sailor can comment on this one from his experience as well. The issue is insurance. Thinking purely hypothetically, since the Bradley smokers are labeled for outdoor use only and the manual includes instructions that operation not be left unattended, I wonder how most insurance companies would respond to a claim for fire damage if it were to be determined that the fire originated from use of a Bradley smoker, or any similar appliance, that had been used either indoors (not really sure what that means) or from use unattended?
Anyone with insurance claims knowledge have any ideas?
And if you do a drywall protected "enclosure" be sure to tape and mud the joints and nails, caulk the bottom of the wall to the floor - AND protect the ceiling joists/trusses! and don't use a wood door for access. Those pesky codes inspectors don't like it when I don't do all them things.
Personally I am not aware of an instance where a claim was denied because someone used equipment inside a building that was designed for outside use. Generally if the cause and origin (fire/arson) investigator determines that the building owner was involved in arson a claim will be denied. If I were investigating a fire in a dwelling and found that a smoker was being used inside a garage and that the cause of the fire was due to a malfunction or operator error I would not deem the cause to be arson. However if the investigation showed that the building owner had been delinquent in house payments, car payments and had a paper trail that showed that the burning of the building would benefit the owner I would take a hard look at the case.
The majority of fires are caused because someone did something that they were not supposed to do. I had a case many years ago where the homeowner left a pan on the stove and went shopping. The pan was full of grease with no food and the burner was turned on high and the grease ignited causing severe damage to the house. He was so far in debt and behind in his house payments and going into foreclosure. There was no doubt in my mind that it was intentional yet I was unable to prove that the owner tried to burn the house down. The insurance company ended up paying the claim.
I couldn't agree more with you Sailor. I'm also in the insurance business and your absolutely correct when you say "The majority of fires are caused because someone did something that they were not supposed to do." Sometimes it's something as simple as careless use of candles or someone using a fire pit on a wood deck. Up here in Saskatchewan a common past time is ice fishing in the winter. Every year there's a few trucks that go in... usually somewhere they shouldn't be. Insurance always pays the tab and I have yet to see situations that are not paid, excluding intentional acts such as arson.
Anyway, I just thought I would weigh in on the possibility of fire with the Bradley or any smoker for that matter. As most of you know I have a Bradley built into my detached heated garage. I also have a large smoker (holds 100 lbs of sausage) built in as well.
Here's my take on the Bradley. I'm my opinion there are 2 potential risks for a fire, excluding electrical failure. The first is improperly loading the meat and allowing it to touch the walls and especially the rear wall. If grease runs down the wall and into the heating element this will potentially be a fire hazard. Of course this can be prevented by loading the smoker properly and avoiding this risk.
The second potential risk is when the water bowl is allowed to run dry or close to dry especially during a long smoke like doing a butt. In this situation the pucks can pile up and not be extinguished properly. Add to this the grease dripping from a pork butt and you have another potential fire. Of course this can be avoided by keeping the water bowl full. Most people empty the spent pucks after the smoke is complete and refill with hot water. Rarely do I have to fill the bowl after this because it seems the dripping grease floats on the top of the water resulting in little evaporation. On my installation in my garage I have mine set up in a permanent cold smoke setup which completely eliminates the possibility of fire from this risk.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike
Mike;
All good points. I learned from experience there is another possibility. If you are doing a large load, and use a rub heavy in sugar, it can coat your "V" (drip) tray and plug the vents. This allows heat to build up beneath the tray. I didn't have a fire, but caught the situation in time when I saw an unexpected drop in cabinet temperature. I had to use a putty knife to scrape off the accumulated goo. Now when I do large loads I now keep an eye on the drip tray when I rotate.
I am one of the few who has had a fire. It was a result of making many ABT's with cheap fatty bacon. The heater was on high and the fat was melting from the bacon at a great rate. It was hitting the V Tray in the heater element area and igniting. All I could do was to turn the element off, turn off the air supply and wait. DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR!
I was there when it happened and it did little damage to the smoker. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE RESULTS WOULD HAVE BEEN IF I WAS NOT THERE! I think that it would have toasted the Bradley. It was outside in an enclosure so it would not have done damage to the house.
Next time I would keep the ABT's father away from the back wall, use with less fatty bacon and make fewer ABT's at one time.
Brad
Thanks Sailor & Mike for addressing the insurance question/ Good stuff! :)
Habs
That's a good point. I usually keep a 1" putty knife by my smoker. Anytime I'm checking things or refilling the water bowl I always check the V-pan for any accumulation, if there is any I give it a quick scrape.
Mike
Quote from: Mr Walleye on May 20, 2010, 12:34:19 PM
Habs
That's a good point. I usually keep a 1" putty knife by my smoker. Anytime I'm checking things or refilling the water bowl I always check the V-pan for any accumulation, if there is any I give it a quick scrape.
Mike
Me too.