It appears green woods are VERY promising and might also be a direction Bradley might consider going to round out its array of equipment.
e.g., a portable, light weight, low power, "electric shredder" or "chipper" for limbs 1" in diameter or smaller for shredding to chip size. Could be called a "Bradley Chip Chopper" or similar. ::)
Anyway, The green peach tree branches imparted a buttery(?) flavor or taste with a hint of sweetness to a piece of white bread in 1 hour of cold smoking. The body of the bread remained soft with no trace of hardening or excessive moisture even though the smoked surface was beginning to have a light "tan".
I see no reason that would prevent chipping green non-fruit woods like Hickory, Mesquite, & Walnut, too.
On the down side....The rate of consumption (smoke to ash) appears to be 2 to 3 times faster than dry Hickory chips. Had I shredded the green peach branch instead of cutting it into 2.5" sticks, the volume would have been greater and the smoking time longer with each wood fill from the reduction in wasted air space in the burn vessel using those irregular branch pieces.
Green does heat up fast....starting smoke is faster than dry wood I think. About 3 1/2 to 4 minutes in my smoker. -Larry
The only problem I see is how do you keep it "green" over a long period of time without seasoning.
Good point Habanero Smoker.
I have been "musing" that very issue since yesterday. Storing green cuttings in a bag will result in mold just like a compost pile.
Drying the cuttings will be costly because of the energy to heat & ventilate.
My present thoughts are to cut when needed from the tree's, selecting branches that will be pruned in the future...... Or, waiting until summer when I can cut branches and let them dry in the ambient air. Of course they will harden too, requiring a higher power chipper electric motor. It may be necessary to summer shred instead, and let the shredding dry on a screen in the summer heat(?). I would not suggest using any existing gas motorized chipper because of exhaust fumes and vapor contaminating the wood.
Maybe someone has a cost effective* (*no $$$) idea how to dry the greens without making our homes look like a neighborhood refuse pile?
In any case, I have an old 3/4 HP electric chipper(too much HP) that I am going to clean up from the cuttings of a poisonous Texas Umbrella tree from next door, and then test its chipping size capability by seeing if I can raise the cutting bar height with spacers to get an optimum chip thickness. If successful I will post pictures of it and the sizes of the chips resulting.
Hope BRADLEY is monitoring this stuff we are tossing around..... Maybe they have some drying ideas too?......... ;) -Larry
Hey this is just a thought but what about chipping the wood and put them in ziplocks and then freeze them so they don't go moldy on you.
Cutting the limbs as you need them is what I use to do.
If you have freezer space Quarlow's idea may work.
I chipped a probably 1000 pounds of chips this spring and placed then of a couple of pallots with a open fabrick to allow air flow. You are correct that if left on the ground they will mold. I loosly covered them with a tarp to keep rain off of them and used a rake to stir them frequently. They did not mold and dried out quite quickly. I used a dark tarp and the heat under the tarp helped the drying process. just use some sort of sticker between the tarp and the chips so that there is plenty of air flow. I then found some large used gunny sacks from a feed store and filled them with the chips and stored them in my green house. I moisten the chips the night before I intend to use them to keep them from burning up too fast. If you mix some dry chips with the wet ones it helps the smoke generator to put out smoke sooner.
Kirby
Precookingsmoker,
Have you tried that green wood smoking technique in the Bradley on anything other than bread? The reason I ask is the potential for creosote flavor from smoking green wood over a long smoke period of time on a 125 watt hot plate.
Unfortunately KyNola, I am a Bradely persona non gotta(grata?) and an in disguise with a pseudo B. smoker.
I Have only used green wood in a test configuration from the trash barrel because the newly hired yard man had pruned most of our fruit trees days and took the cuttings away before the idea came to me to try it.
It was tried out in the home built COLD smoker only. No adverse odor detected in burn vessel, duct vapor drippings, or rack enclosure after several runs of 1 hour each.
-Larry
That clears up the questions I had.
The way I understand creosote production is that it is caused by low combustion temperatures - not whether you have moisture (H2O) in your wood or even the type of wood. Contrary to popular opinion, sap in the wood does not cause creosote, and softwoods (pine, fir, spruce, etc... ) do not produce more creosote than oak or other hardwoods. In fact in open fireplaces hardwoods can develop more creosote than softwoods. Studies done in the 80's showed the softwoods burned hotter, so they deposited less creosote than a hardwood fire. You can burn green wood hot enough that it doesn't condense creosote in/on your chimney or other parts of your smoker and food.
Dry seasoned wood burns hotter easier because it doesn't have to offput the moisture (i.e. boil it away). By having to do that the green wood doesn't burn as hot until it drives off the water. Ever seen someone boil water over a campfire in a cup made out of newspaper? Any chemist or physicist will tell you that all the water must be consumed before the paper will heat up past 212 degrees – but we won't believe it until we see it done! Since the paper won't ignite until it is heated over 450 degrees, the water will boil before the paper burns. Guess what happens to green wood? Green wood is up to 50 percent water. All the water must be boiled out of the wood before the remaining fibers will be heated enough to release combustible gases. Just like the paper cup, the temperature of the wood will not rise above 212 degrees until the water is gone. Bear in mind that creosote forms at temperatures below 300 degrees F. So while you are not burning the green wood, you are producing creosote.
Now let's go a little further and say dry wood doesn't burn either! Nope campers - wood doesn't burn! I don't care what your grandpop says – wood doesn't burn! It sublimates – undergoes a process called pyrolysis . Say what! Pyrolysis is usually the first chemical reaction that occurs in the burning of solid organic fuels, like wood. In a wood fire, the visible flames are not due to combustion of the wood itself, but rather of the gases released by its pyrolysis. Next time you haven't got a great deal to do, watch a fire carefully. If you look closely, you will see that the flames don't actually touch the wood! The stick of wood is a producer of volatile gasses. When the wood is heated well into the 450 degree range, these gasses are driven off and ignite.
After all the volatiles are driven off, the wood becomes charcoal - a "form" or carbon. Charcoal is flammable, which is why it glows red in the firebox.
And because the steam caused by the driving off of the water is cooler than say combustion gases, it can condense on things faster and easier than other compounds put out by combustion. Condensed water is of course at a lower temp than 212 deg, so creosote can condense on it. Essentially, if the fire is not hot enough the volatiles will vaporize rather than burn in the firebox and can condense on anything cool enough. What does that sound like? It sounds like a smoker – smoldering fire – low temps. Essentially when smoking you are producing creosote - you can't get around it.
You often hear something like this (I copied it off of a website that will remain un-named – but it could be from any number of websites). "Next, you have to decide if you want to use wet or dry smoke. Dry smoke is created by sprinkling dry wood chips or chunks over the hot coals. Dry wood burns up faster, but releases a much stronger smoke. Too much dry smoke, however, can lead to an overly-strong and bitter smoke flavor.
Wet smoke is created by soaking wood chunks in water overnight before setting them over the coals. The wet wood burns slower, releasing steam as well as smoke, and provides a milder smoke flavor over a longer period of time than dry wood. The steam also helps keep the meat moist ." Can I say balderdash again?
Hardwoods and softwoods are made up of basically the same items – except that softwoods generally contain a greater percentage of resins that can produce a harsh tasting soot. Different species of tree do have different ratios of components, so various types of wood do impart a different flavor to food. Combustion of wood offputs a lot of different compounds, etc.. that are the "flavor" in smoke. The compounds in the smoke depend not only on the fuel but also the efficiency of combustion. Inefficient combustion produces dense white smoke. Dense white smoke has a lot of the flavor compounds including creosote. These could make the meat bitter and overwhelm other flavors. Higher temperatures (more efficient combustion) break down these compounds resulting in less "smoke flavor." Many people do not like a strong smoke flavor (including most KCBS judges) so they like to see "thin blue" smoke. The thin blue smoke is also hotter, so it is not as likely to condense on the meat, but just passes on by and on out the exhaust.
Because the "smoke flavor" is from the deposition of these compounds, the longer the meat stays in the smoke, regardless of the meat temperature, more smoke flavor is deposited. This is a process termed adsorption (not absorption – notice the difference in spelling). If you read about BBQ enough you will find it said that meat won't take any more smoke when it gets to 120 deg, 145, 150, 165, etc..... Balderdash (again). Even I have been known to say something such as that prior to my awakening. What got me to change my tune? It just doesn't make sense, plus my "cheater" briskets. In certain and rare circumstances I will cook a brisket (usually "cowboy" ) in the oven prior to sticking it into a smoker. Guess what, it gets smoke flavored. Should we say "Myth Busted!" Throw that one out the window.
Smoke flavor is a depositing action- not a soaking in. Adsorption – not absorption. Meat will take up smoke flavor as long as it's exposed to smoke, though the rate at which it does so seems to decrease as the temperature of the meat rises. What probably happens is that enough smoke flavor is deposited on the meat that any more just won't produce an increase in smoke flavor – you've reached your taste buds saturation point.
Really nice write up Caney. I love coming here for an education. :D
Wow Caney that was a great post, now my head hurts I need a nap....
I happened to pick up about 60 pounds of hardwood dust while on my hunting trip. I was able to get some maple, cherry and oak. I thought I would take a run at using it in the contraption Nepas had posted (can't remember the name). This wood is fresh form the sawmill and not dry at all. reading through you thoughts am I to assume that I should dry this wood before I use it? or does it matter? I am confused....
Best way (I think) to "digest" Caneyscud excellent article is to go thru' it line by line making notes on the side of the good and the bad.
Then assemble the notes into good and bad columns for further digestion while savoring the content for its full flavor. ;D
Quote from: precookingsmoker on November 16, 2010, 11:52:09 AM
Best way (I think) to "digest" Caneyscud excellent article is to go thru' it line by line making notes on the side of the good and the bad.
Then assemble the notes into good and bad columns for further digestion while savoring the content for its full flavor. ;D
;D :D ;D ;D
What stupid person who even knows anything about smoking would even think about using green wood? Oh wait lemme thro a gallon of creosote in thar fer added flaver :D :D
Pull Emull Pull :D DUH
Quote from: NePaSmoKer on November 16, 2010, 12:43:17 PM
What stupid person who even knows anything about smoking would even think about using green wood? Oh wait lemme thro a gallon of creosote in thar fer added flaver :D :D
Pull Emull Pull :D DUH
You guys are killin me ;D ;D ;D
Caneyscud
Well explained. The process of burning wood is part chemistry and a lot of physics. One thing I have noticed and have made a special point to avoid is to not your sausage warm up to at least room temperature before applying smoke. When it is cold [like just out of the fridge] it will condense the smoke rapidly and will collect much more of the creosote. This will look like the sausage is sweating but it is just collecting moisture and other bad things from the smoke. When warm the creosote seems to pass on by and more of the desirable compounds will attach themselves to the casings. Here is a question for you. When you say blue smoke verses white, would you think that a lot of blue smoke [meaning high temperature generated smoke] coming out of your smoker would look white because of the density of the smoke. My smoke generators have the chips directly in contact with the chips and the element is red hot. Because of this I generate a lot of smoke but have never noticed a bitter taste to the meat. I do the same with jerky and sausage. I do know that I can not let anything smoke too long because the smoke level will be just to strong. It isn't bitter but it is strong. If I am going for a long smoke I use the smoke generator sparingly. Some of my jerky lovers really go for the heavier smoke flavor but the wives tend not to care for it. I guess it is a gender thing.
I wished you lived closer we could drive our wives nuts.
Ps did you check your private messages.
Kirby
Nice write up. Just one observation, I agree that smoke will continue to deposit on the surface of the meat and I have said that many times, but what I've learned is that as the surface of the meat increases the ability of the smoke to adhere to the meat decreases.
Quote from: NePaSmoKer on November 16, 2010, 12:43:17 PM
What stupid person who even knows anything about smoking would even think about using green wood? Oh wait lemme thro a gallon of creosote in thar fer added flaver :D :D
Pull Emull Pull :D DUH
I don't agree with your assessment of my abilities. ;) I have used green wood to smoke with and it works well. I'm not talking about green wood to cook with, but green wood added to hot coals to produce a smoke flavor.
OH CRAP
I BEEN DOIN IT ALL WRONG FOR THE PAST 30 YEARS
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/stlthy1/icons/homer-simpson-doh.gif)
I guess so. So that means I've been doing it right for over 40 years. ;D
It seems so.
I wouldnt even use green wood in my stick burner or even my fire place....To each there own i guess.
Done with this thread because its getting stupid.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/stlthy1/icons/Launch236.gif)
Pikeman, my opinion is that blue smoke comes after the evaporation of all water (even dry wood has some water and produces water – I've heard 42 lbs or water produced when 100 lbs of wood burned) and after the exhaustion of all the volatiles leaving only charcoal to combust - not neccessarily due to high temp. Easiest way to get that is to have a separate fire and just use the coals from that fire for the smoker. Most of the flavor compounds, etc... have burned away. Most smokers want that "thin blue" whether they prefer it or not. In my experience (which is not vast) with judges is that most don't seem to like much smoke flavor. Lots of people here in the SE don't seem to like smoke either. I've been to highly regarded BBQ joints, and you can sometimes barely tell that the butt has been smoked. My family is different, they like heavy smoke. To accomplish that, I usually start with a bed of lump charcoal and add wood on top of that. Most often it is relatively dry to dry hickory or oak as those are what I can get around here the easiest. However, if I have enough trimmings or fallen limbs, they will go in. I currently have half of a small Mulberry tree that fell a month ago that in the next week or two will be used on some ribs and a brisket. What usually happens is that when the wood is put on the coals I get a pretty billowy smoke, that dies down in 15 or 20 minutes or so to a thin blue. Of course that is for a stickburner. With the Bradley - I just smoke longer - often the whole time.
Now using chips on the Bradley smoke generator I have not done. I've used some Traeger Pellets, but not chips.
The data says you generate creosote (actually a colorless to yellowish liquid rather than the thick black tarry stuff everybody says it is. The dark color comes from incorporation of generally carbon black) when you burn wood – plain and simple and old wive's aside. Conditions being the same the data says there is not much difference (I've heard less than 5 or 10% diff across the board) between commonly used woods whether hardwood or softwood or green or seasoned. There is a lot of other things coming out of green wood. – but not more creosote. When you create the most creosote is when you are oxygen starving the fire. When something collects more creosote depends on it's temperature. The cooler – the more condensation occurs. There are other reasons I might not use green wood – mainly it is hard to start. And it tends to smolder when used in a smoker and can get messy. A similar smoldering effect happens when one soaks the wood in water before using to smoke – but for some reason, that is deemed ok.
I would not use green wood in a modern woodburning stove. The process of driving off the moisture can pretty much upset the system either cat or non-cat and is inefficient. And the water vapor produced can cool down the system allowing for incomplete recombustion and cooler flue temps leading to more creosote deposition.
Oddly enough the commercial production of wood creosote (as opposed to coal tar creosote) is a high temperature treatment of beech. Don't believe anyone produces it in the US any more.
You either like a highly smoked product or you don't. Is a highly smoked product more dangerous to your health. I couldn't find anything for certain. Coal tar derived creosote is considered probably cancer causing , but not a mention of wood creosote. But that is mainly because the coaltar creosote is the prevalent type, they have not spent much research on the wood creosote. It has been reported that animals had trouble with large amounts of wood creosote.
QuoteI wouldnt even use green wood in my stick burner or even my fire place....To each there own i guess.
I have been following this as well. At this stage in my life, if it does not come in a in a nice package of pellets, bisquettes, bag of lump, bag of dust, I just don't wanna go there.
Caney, formally as both a chemist and a physicist, I commend you. That is an excellent practical treatise on wood combustion !
A couple of thoughts on smoke deposition and adsorption vs meat temperature -- simple version. I believe there are several effects going on simultaneously, some competting with each other. First is as HabS points out, a surface that is conducive first to condensing the volatile flavoring components in smoke then to hanging onto them.
As the surface temperature of meat, poultry, fish, cheese, or whatever increase it is less likely to condense the smaller, more volatile flavoring compounds in the smoke. Lower meat surface temperature means more condensation.
After condensation comes the second step, adsorption. Many smoking recipes call for a dry surface and that important pellicle layer on the surface. That kind of surface, made up from small, water soluble proteins that have dried on the surface, is especially conducive to holding onto (adsorbing) those precious and volatile flavoring components in smoke. A wet surface is less likely to bind those same compounds - most of those flavoring compounds have very limited solubility in water, so a wet surface means less adsorption.
Third is the compounds that have condensed but are not bound or adsorbed on the surface are just as likely to leave once the meats surface gets high enough. So increasing the surface temperature can drive some of the deposited but not bound compounds back off the surface.
From what I have learned from the mentors here.....
My original intention in building my cold smoker was (IMMEDIATELY) after a brine, to force large amounts of smoke products into fish flesh by fast concentrated smoke in a short time(15 minutes to 1/2 hour) using a hot stainless steel LPG burn vessel with cooling ducting into the smoker cabinet. Then follows a drying period of pellicle forming followed by a HOT smoking of the fish....whether frozen fish or fresh fillets.
It appears given the previous information that what I am doing is DEPOSITING the cold smoke products first, then a pellicle forms OVER the fish surface trapping the deposited smoke products. Then further hot smoking of the pellicle causes the desired adsorbing to strengthen further the smoke flavors.
In my hamburgers, the cold smoking is applied the same way but the hamburgers then get transferred to either a kitchen range or a standard* LPG barbecue. (*which might have smoke chips added)
It is my understanding that a pellicles, moisture, or cooked surfaces, prevents any PENETRATION of smoke products afterward, even into porous meats. So it must be done before any of these 3 things occur if I want that extra smoke flavor. I do not believe exterior "depositing" is a reliable way to get consistant flavor......
Wonder where any creosote goes when the smoke is traveling down the ducting before it curves upward? Smoke starts out hot in the closed burn vessel but is cool going in the modified BBQ.
-Larry
precookingsmoker, if I correctly understand what you are proposing, and I'm not at all sure that I do, what you're describing sounds like in situ generation and application of liquid smoke. Yeah, that funny bottled stuff.
Liquid smoke is nothing more than condensed smoke in a liquid base. But the process is a good bit more controlled, with fractional condensation (or distillation if you prefer) than what you would achieve in your own process. You mention "consistent flavor". Given the variables present in your proposed process I seriously doubt that it would be any more consistent than what is traditionally practiced for either hot or cold smoking, just more concentrated.
If you want more smoke flavor with consistency you might want to give liquid smoke applications a try. That way you can add a precise amount each and every time, and you can vary the amount to get exactly the flavor you want.
There is a lot of debate in BBQ circles about smoke "absorption". You go from dyed-in-the-wool-seat-of-the-pants smokers who swear the meat absorbs smoke, to food scientist who say it doesn't. I side with the food scientists. I don't believe smoke penetrates by itself. Smoke flavoring seems to be a condensation and a depositing effect (adsorption). Very carefully cut open a thick butt fresh out of the smoker. Then after carefully cleaning the knife after each cut, cut out a bite of meat an inch below the surface bark. Taste it - you have cooked pork, not smoked pork. Now, can some smoke flavor be pulled into the meat by some movement of salts, fats, melted collagen - probably. Why do you frequently hear of pulled pork tasting better the second day and the third, etc... All the smoke flavor (and rubs, slathers, etc...) found on the surface is getting mixed into and assimilated with the rest of the hunk of meat.
The flavor compounds in smoke will deposit on just about anything - the cooler the thing is the more likely those compounds will condense and deposit. They will supposedly deposit on liquids as well as dry areas. The pellicle is a good dry (or rather a somewhat dry) surface that the smoke flavor can deposit on - and stay. If you put the fish in moist, with surface moisture the smoke could adhere to the the moisture then either evaporate or drip away - taking the smoke flavor with it or just not bind to it as BLSH states. As others have said, ideally to obtain the most smoke flavor in the least amount of time is have a cool product with a dry surface.
Smoke flavor is not a forever thing - it is somewhat fugitive. With time it will dissipate. I've read somewhere that high heat (350 and above) can accelerate this dissipating tremendously.
Also too high of a burning temperature (what that is I don't know) will supposedly cause the breakdown of the flavor molecules into harsh or flavorless products.
BuyLowSellHigh, I will describe my setup a bit more.
In all cases, either green wood or kiln dried fruit wood is used for smoke in the cold smoker. Nothing else is used. My remark about the unreliability of smoke flavoring was directed at my process of Pre-pellicle (depositing) of smoke immediately after a brine when surface is damp but not wet. Then the fish forms its pellicle and hot smoking is applied.
The setup:
Tall Stainless Steel 5" diameter round container with lid is heated with a controlled LPG burner flame. I usually make that burn vessel so hot that heavy smoke is generated well under 4 minutes. The burn vessel can only be handled with welders gloves or a 10" long pair of pliers at the 4 minute mark.
Inside the burn vessel the side and top surfaces are totally black and has shiny flakes of soot or creosote and must be wire brushed off at fairly frequent intervals to remove this build up.
The round lid is concave. In its center a 50 cent sized hole allows smoke to escape. The connecting ducting is bolted to the lid with small screws. The HOT pressurized smoke exits the 50 cent hole and enters a low pressure environment provided by the 3" diameter metal ducting going to the smoke chamber. The ducting (& smoke) temperature is quickly reduced away from the point of mechanical connection to the lid.
I am assuming that creosote is deposited in the burn vessel and little is actually transported to the smoking chamber. I also assume that flavor producing products are also transporteded which is indicated by the taste of the test bread done only at the cold smoking stage.
Am I missing something important here? :-[ ::) ??? :o ;D ;)
Intersting smoke generator. If it works for you, press onward.
I see no problem adding green wood in modest bits to an already hot fire for the purpose of generating smoke. As anyone who has tried to use it in a wood stove or fireplace can attest, using green wood as a fuel base for a fire can be challenging. It takes a lot of heat energy to first vaporize the water and dry the wood enough for the pyrolysis and combustion process that will follow. As a fuel base in a smoker (e.g., stick burner) it would probably require maintaining a hotter fire than is typical of low and slow cooking to prevent creosote formation.
On the Bradley I am with KyNola - probably not enough heat at 125 watts to do it well.
What I do when I want to use other wood flavors, whether green wood or seasoned chips or sawdust; I set up a cold smoke box place a hot plate inside and smoke the wood over the hot plate.
Using other woods in the Bradley (http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?488-Answers-To-Bradley-Smoker-FAQ-s&p=819#post819)