Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 8:31 AM
To:
[email protected]Subject: Question on Re-freezing "home-cured" commercial fish.
Thank you for any consideration of my question.
I have purchased frozen Salmon from a local food chain market(WinCo).
I will do a brine followed by a cold, then a hot smoke at proper
temperatures and periods of time to obtain smoked salmon.
My question; Is it safe to vacuum seal and RE-FREEZE this newly smoked
salmon for longer storage of up to 1 month?
Thank you. -Larry
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Larry,
Yes, it is safe to seal and re-freeze smoked salmon for a month. It might last longer (the problem is rancidity, but the vacuum packaging helps to minimize the oxidation).
Be sure to thaw your product in the refrigerator. If you remove it from refrigerated conditions, then you must open the package to prevent the potential growth and toxin production by Clostridium botulinum type E bacteria which can occur in low oxygen conditions created by the vacuum package. The smoking temperature is not sufficient to destroy C. botuluninum spores in the product. Refrigeration below 38F also inhibits growth. This web site explains the risks of vacuum packaged seafood which must be refrigerated: http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/pubs/vacuum.htm .
Kenny Lum, Seafood Products Association President, recommends that the smoked fish be rapidly cooled after smoking and before vacuum packaging. That would reduce the risk of high temperature exposure in reduced oxygen conditions.
Pamela Tom, California Sea Grant Advisor
Mailing Address:
Pamela Tom
University of California
Food Science and Technology Dept.
One Shields Avenue
Davis, CA 95616 USA
Web: http://seafood.ucdavis.edu (UC SeafoodNIC)
http://foodscience.ucdavis.edu (UC Davis, Food Science & Technology Dept.)
E-mail:
[email protected]
There is no problem so long as you adhere to the broad an general handling guidelines for meats, poultry and fish -- keep it cold, below 40 °F. Vacuum packaging creates an an anaerobic environment, which is what Clostridium botulinum needs to grow and develop. That bacteria is a spore former and it grows and develops from the spores. The spores themselves are not toxic, but they are the seed for the bacteria which produces an extremely potent toxin (one of the most potent known). Preparation, cooking and smoking of meat, poultry and fish focuses on destroying or inactivating the then present bacteria, but usually are not sufficient to destroy the spores. For that reason even cooked meats, poultry, fish and low acid foods (green beans is the usual example) need to be kept at temperatures where the spores won't bloom into active bacteria. In vacuum packaging it becomes more critical because of the anaerobic environment.
So long as you keep that vacuum packaged fish below 40 °F you should be fine. As she points out, "If you remove it from refrigerated conditions, then you must open the package to prevent the potential growth and toxin production by Clostridium botulinum type E bacteria which can occur in low oxygen conditions created by the vacuum package." For packaging after smoking, chill first, then vac pack would be preferred.
BTW, this is the same for any vacuum packaged meat, poultry or fish, including the cryopacked stuff in the meat department.
This is very interesting and important information. I always assumed that vacuum sealing made your food safer. I really appreciate you bringing this to light. A lack of oxygen and bacteria growth is not a connection that I would have ever made.
Another tidbit I failed to include is about thawing. Do it cold (like in a refrigerator or ice water) or remove it from the vac or cryopac. This is especially important for anything that will not be reheated to a food safe temperature after thawing, as smoked fish would not be, and many leftovers that folks only want to rewarm.
I used a High mountain Brine on my last salmon Smoke. It had 3.99% Sodium Nitrite and 0.8 % sodium erythorbate, Do I have to worry about Bacteria? My salmon is Vacuum packed, in the freezer, I thaw it in the fridge and then it goes on a plate and down the hatch very quickly. ;D
Quote from: Keymaster on November 13, 2010, 05:54:50 AM
I used a High mountain Brine on my last salmon Smoke. It had 3.99% Sodium Nitrite and 0.8 % sodium erythorbate, Do I have to worry about Bacteria? My salmon is Vacuum packed, in the freezer, I thaw it in the fridge and then it goes on a plate and down the hatch very quickly. ;D
Sounds dangerous to me Keymaster. You might be best to just send me what's left so I can dispose of the contaminated product safely. ;) ;D
Quote from: Keymaster on November 13, 2010, 05:54:50 AM
I used a High mountain Brine on my last salmon Smoke. It had 3.99% Sodium Nitrite and 0.8 % sodium erythorbate, Do I have to worry about Bacteria? My salmon is Vacuum packed, in the freezer, I thaw it in the fridge and then it goes on a plate and down the hatch very quickly. ;D
My only concern, from what you have described, is the "down the hatch very quickly" part. Don't choke. :D ;D
You just gotta love the food police. ;)
Exactly the reason I'm so leary of the anaerobic conditions while "wet-aging" cryovacced meats.
Some questions regarding this thread. I have only heard of wet-aging beef. Does this crowd wet-age other meats as well? Is beef as subject to Botulism as fish? Typically, don't we cook beef to a higher temp (185+) than fish, doesn't that mitigate the botulism danger?
From what I just finished reading Porterdriver.....
All foods, meats and fishes are threatened equally from the varieties of C. Botulinum spores, regardless wet-aging or ANY low oxygen condition above 38 degrees F.
Different varieties of these spores are "controlled" or inhibited in growth, but NOT killed, under different conditions.
C. Botulinum spore has several types (Groups) some of which are resistant to heat.... and are not killed until temperatures go OVER 212 F.
It appears "inhibiting" the growth of C. Bot. spore is the best most of us can do, and our ability to actually destroy all C. Bot spore varieties will not occur until we have turned the meats and fishes into charcoal.
Really nasty stuff.....having deadly biological weapon capability too......
Refer to:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum
etc.
-Larry
After adding the previous points in this discussion, it should have contained another comment.....
It is likely the greatest danger in the development of toxins produced by C.Bot spores when any form of vacuum sealing is done.........is not to ourselves......but to those we give our chilled and frozen packages to.
We do not know what temperatures the packs (now starting to de-thaw) reach after they are "tossed" in the trunk of another persons car for transport home, even if ice is used in some kind of "Cooler", nor do we know how long the packs are in their kitchens unopened and what the temperature is when they are actually opened.....
One thing seems clear. Going above 38 degrees F. allows the spores to BEGIN producing toxins. By the time the spores have reached 90 degree F. temperatures they are producing MASSIVE amounts of toxins, while still sealed in their low oxygen environment.
VIP !!! -We risk our friends and family members if they do not understand the steps or toxin countermeasures they must take if the packages are unopened. :-[
This likely applies to fruits too. Which I vacuum pack a lot of........
What a learning curve! ....... earning a B.S. & B.B. (Bachelor of Smoke & Bachelor of Bugs.)
Quote from: precookingsmoker on November 17, 2010, 11:04:47 PM
One thing seems clear. Going above 38 degrees F. allows the spores to BEGIN producing toxins. By the time the spores have reached 90 degree F. temperatures they are producing MASSIVE amounts of toxins, while still sealed in their low oxygen environment.
The
spores DO NOT produce the toxin that is the cause of botulism. Only the bacteria do that. The spores are the "seed" for bacteria.
Cooking to food safe temperatures destroys the then active bacteria. The toxin produced by the bacteria is deactivated by heating to 176 °F for 10 minutes. The spores can survive to 250 °F. depending on strain.
Refrigeration below 38 °F keeps the bacteria and spores dormant. Cooking to food safe temps destroys the bacteria and any toxin then present. The problem comes when food products that have spores present and will not be further cooked or heated to temperatures sufficient to destroy the bacteria and toxin are held at conditions that allow the spores to germinate. Hence the concern for cooked foods (e.g., smoked fish) that will not be further cooked.
If you follow normal food handling and storage practices you should be just fine.
This is the best practical overview of botulism I know of.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.pdf
You know it's really pretty simple. If you're that leery and concerned about the danger of vac sealing ANY food product, then simply don't do it.
Ohhhhh Jeebus :D
IN COMING :D
Some of you guys that ain't been here much or are new posting this stuff are scaring the Hell outta some of the new members. I been doing this for over 30 years and yet to be sick or have someone get sick from the brine, marinade, cure, smoke or whatever.
Come on let the new smokers enjoy the hobby.
Do you believe everything church, state and the corrupt depts of our Gov tell you?
Rick, I think a picture is worth a thousand words.
Exhibit "A"
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/63KevinG/Bradley%20General/ExhibitA.jpg)
3 years of vacuum packed smoked, & unsmoked venison.
Agreed BuyLowSellHigh.
I took a descriptive short-cut. What I read is in agreement with you. The spores can ultimately cause the toxins to occur.
What I was trying to illustrate was 2 points.....
1) We are responsible for what might occur to others when we share our vacuum sealed products with others....if they are not totally aware of intrinsic dangers and the countermeasures.
2) That the spoors which ultimately cause the toxin compounds are MORE than difficult to destroy even tho' they can be held in remission with safe practices.
3) NePaSmoker: -Being scared does help educate and cause a more careful cooking, curing & smoking practice. Whether to a "new-be" like me, or an old timer with a nearly rigid mind-set in things. The objective (in all of this) is to educate, by force or shock if necessary......what casual handling or a misunderstanding can do to ourselves and to others ultimately.
-Play it safe and burn the hell out of everything! ;D ;D ;D -Larry
Sushi Anyone?
Quote from: precookingsmoker on November 18, 2010, 02:23:40 PM
The objective (in all of this) is to educate, by force or shock if necessary
Uh, excuse me? I had promised myself I was going to try to stay out of this but in support of my friend NePaS whom I happen to agree with, I don't recall anyone asking you to educate us by any means necessary or in fact to educate us at all.
I totally understand this is going to go bad in a hurry but I'll be happy to stand with Rick.
Sushi -- no, don't want all the rice (fills me up too fast). :D
Sashimi ? Amaebi ? All I can stuff into my round belly. Love it! And I like and eat raw beef too!
Best sashimi I ever had was about 10 years ago. Wife and I were on a dive trip in a very remote part of the middle of the Pacific. When we motored across the lagoon we'd troll and catch small fresh Tuna off the back of the boat. The local native crew fileted it on the spot, cut it into pieces, put in on a paper plate and handed us a tube of wasabi. Ten minutes max, out of the water and into my mouth. No refrigeration needed!
Jeebus
Wait must be my rigid mindset......OH CRAP I'M GUNNA DIE WITH SPORES CUZ I ATE RAW BAMBI TODAY...................AHHHHHHHH ......DOH
I see allot of posting BS here with NO PHOTOS TO BACK UP
You do the smoke POST IT
Smoking talks....BS posting walks :D
BLSH - I don't eat it unless it has a least been waved over a flame. I can do ceviche, but it's really been 'cooked' by the lemon juice or whatever the acid is (and all the cerveza chases it through your system anyway). ;D ;D
QuoteI was going to try to stay out of this
ditto, I failed miserably KN! ;) :D
QuoteCome on let the new smokers enjoy the hobby.
I agree. :)
Botulism needs putting into context.There are around 150 cases in the US per year, less than 10 in the UK and of those only perhaps 25 cases in total will be foodborne. The foodborne cases are usually due to home canning and commercial sources although due to the big increase in home vacuum sealing it does cause the odd very rare case.
The rest are normally infants (linked to honey for example) or wound botulism, quite often linked to IV drug abuse.
It is treatable if picked up early and the mortality rate is low.
So yes, we all need to be aware of the dangers but those risks are relatively easy to negate given there is so much information available nowadays about food processing and handling and the chances of actually getting botulism are very small...... virtually nil if you follow basic do's and don'ts! :)
Quote from: manxman on November 18, 2010, 03:24:56 PM
So yes, we all need to be aware of the dangers but those risks are relatively easy to negate given there is so much information available nowadays about food processing and handling and the chances of actually getting botulism are very small...... nil if you follow basic do's and don'ts!
Exactly! Enough said.
precookingsmoker, when you can show me the mastery of cooking, curing, smoking, and broad chacuterie skills, knowledge and abilities that NePaS and the many others who frequent these forums regularly share, then I'll consider the "education" you are offering. Until then I think many of us would appreciate it if you would confine your educational efforts to yourself.
Quote from: BuyLowSellHigh on November 18, 2010, 03:43:19 PM
Exactly! Enough said.
precookingsmoker, when you can show me the mastery of cooking, curing, smoking, and broad chacuterie skills, knowledge and abilities that NePaS and the many others who frequent these forums regularly share, then I'll consider the "education" you are offering. Until then I think many of us would appreciate it if you would confine your educational efforts to yourself.
Funny your telling him he can't offer an opinion, until he meets your criteria....
Quote from: mybad on November 18, 2010, 04:29:55 PM
Funny your telling him he can't offer an opinion, until he meets your criteria....
I said no such thing.
Quote from: mybad on November 18, 2010, 04:29:55 PM
Quote from: BuyLowSellHigh on November 18, 2010, 03:43:19 PM
Funny your telling him he can't offer an opinion, until he meets your criteria....
Mybad, what you're missing is that there are masters of this craft on this forum who have been doing this for 30-40+ years and teach us all everyday. Everyday. Not by force or shock or any means necessary, but from their many years of experience. The topic subject is "Another lethal danger in storing salmon.... Vacuum packing". Lethal danger? This subject was brought up by the author on his own. No one asked to be educated by "any means necessary". Have you read Kummok's post on smoked salmon? If not, it will take you a while but I urge you to do so, start to finish. Guess all those people have been wrong all these years too. For the record, my money's on Kummok.
One final point, insulting NePaS by referring to him as "an old timer with a nearly rigid mind-set" is absolutely nothing short of rude. NePaS's experience and willingness to help anyone deserves way more respect than that.
My apologies to the members of the forum. If this causes me to be "excused" from the forum, I can live with it.
BLSH et.al.,
Fine. I have not given a seminar since 1985 and did not start one here.
Subject was a UCD information seed submitted to the forum with good intentions, only designed to alert any that might be unaware of Vacuum packaging limitations.
Though it had meaningful contribution for awhile, it has now degenerated into something personal.
Possibly during this transition something new or unknown may have been assimilated by a "hobbyist" or a "Home-Professional". If so, it was worth the while.
I am content designing my equipment to do specialized tasks and need not share further, my thoughts, discoveries, or design modifications progress. Best wishes to you all. -L.
Quote from: manxman on November 18, 2010, 03:24:56 PM
QuoteI was going to try to stay out of this
ditto, I failed miserably KN! ;) :D
QuoteCome on let the new smokers enjoy the hobby.
I agree. :)
Botulism needs putting into context.There are around 150 cases in the US per year, less than 10 in the UK and of those only perhaps 25 cases in total will be foodborne. The foodborne cases are usually due to home canning and commercial sources although due to the big increase in home vacuum sealing it does cause the odd very rare case.
The rest are normally infants (linked to honey for example) or wound botulism, quite often linked to IV drug abuse.
It is treatable if picked up early and the mortality rate is low.
So yes, we all need to be aware of the dangers but those risks are relatively easy to negate given there is so much information available nowadays about food processing and handling and the chances of actually getting botulism are very small...... virtually nil if you follow basic do's and don'ts! :)
Well said Manxman;
I've been smoking since the mid-70's, and learned the most important thing is proper food handling. I believe one of the major reasons that botulism is rare (as well as other food borne illnesses), is that the overwhelming majority of us are already practicing that.
I get the point, OP thinks there may a lethal danger in the handling and storing some foods. He presented his thoughts with some links. One viewpoint is, if you follow basic guidelines your good. Another viewpoint was it is so rare, don't worry about. Another viewpoint was I did this for ever and I haven't got sick.
The viewpoint that irks me is the one that says it can't happen, and until you follow this viewpoint don't offer any opinion, that would be buylowsellhigh.
When I read this thread I saw the OP presenting info on hey this is possible, and nothing more. I read through almost every post every day, and know what some of you bring to the table here [no pun] and I agree about the potential danger being small when you do things right.