I've read many topics on this and think I'm convinced this is what I'm looking for. Need some assurance before I double the price of my BS.
Ok I've been reading up on these, But what is the difference and which is most price competitive and do I need anything else.
What I want is something to control my temp so I don't have to as I don't have the patience to wait around and babysit the BS. Is this really what I want or am I whacked??????
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
You're not whacked, Nodak, your shockingly sane for a smoker . . . I yearn for a Guru-Raptor but don't have one. NSXBill and a few others are the major proponents and can really give you detailed advice so you get exactly what you want/need and don't pay for something extra.
Good luck, and let us know what you decide to get and how it works out for you . . . some of us lilke to live vicariously [:D]!
John
Newton MA
I wrote a review on the Procom4, and you can see it here: http://susan.rminor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29. Haven't changed mind! It takes care of all the worries. Check out the rest of the site. We have all contributed something.
Happy Smoking!
Bill
<i>There is room on earth for all God's creatures....on my plate next to the mashed potatoes.</i>
Thanks nsxbill,
GREAT REVIEW, Unfortunately I couldn't get the pics to come up, but got the jist with your descriptions. I also can't get into the chatroom and I even turned the popup blocker off, I just get window with the little red X box. Any ideas why???
know anything about PID's???
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Nodak, did you register for Olds' site and get a username and p-word? Also, I found that I need to join the chat as a "float", whatever that means.
John
Newton MA
Crap that was direct link to Sauce's web page... I forgot to copy and save those images.... I will try to call him Monday and find out what has happened.
Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
thanks guys, is there an an advantage of an PID, and what will it do or not do that the raptor pkg, and cost, and what else I would need if anything???
Thanks all From the inexperienced.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
I think the Raptor/Guru combo is a PID unit, but the Procom4 model allows complete massaging of the temps remotely instead of lingering around and watching the temp at the smoker. As I said in my review, I can be up at the pool on a raft catching some rays, and with my remote in a waterproof case, watch and modify the temperature. It is pretty pricey, I know, but to me was worth every penny.
I can control the temp of two smokers that are loaded equally, and watch the temps of the meat in both smokers. The Raptor only controls the temp in one smoker, but as I said, if loaded equally will control both smokers. I am so spoiled, I don't think I would ever want to use anything else.
My next buy will be a knock down smoker from //www.thebbqguru.com, and by adding a fan controller can use the Procom on any BBQ, including a trailer mounted unit, Big Green Egg, or the Caldera http://www.thebbqguru.com/Caldera_01.htm that Shotgun Fred sells on the bbqguru website. It is a large volume charcoal smoker that will fit in the underneath bed of an RV if you are on the road and want to hit some of the BBQ contests and compete on a small scale.
Happy New Year!
Bill
<i>There is room on earth for all God's creatures....on my plate next to the mashed potatoes.</i>
Bill, you're the only guy I know that can make me drool when describing a machine . . . [;)]
John
Newton MA
I'm sure the Raptor works great, but being the cheap skate I am, I got a Love model TS-13010 direct from the company for $50. It will run 16 amps.
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/temperature/SeriesTSPrice.cfm
Their tech staff was great, and hook up is simple. They assured me the contacts are durable enough to handle the ~650 watts of the Bradley.
I can set the temp +/- range and the temp I want to maintian.
I need to mount mine in a plastic equipment box I got at Radio Shack w/ a hot and switched plugin mounted in the box--currently sits on the edge of the smoke generator and all the wires hang out the back.
I've only used it about 4 times, but it works great.
Good luck w/ whatever you choose.
Drano
I am normally cheap, but the commander told me to order it so I went with the Raptor/competitor. It just showed up today and figure I better use it this weekend or I'll send it back when the bill comes. Thanks guys for all the advice. I'll let you know how it works out and if I have any buyer remorse after I use it and after the credit card bill shows up. Hopefully that doesn't show up until after I leave for Mexico that way I may not notice it specifically.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by drano38</i>
<br />I'm sure the Raptor works great, but being the cheap skate I am, I got a Love model TS-13010 direct from the company for $50. It will run 16 amps.
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/temperature/SeriesTSPrice.cfm
Their tech staff was great, and hook up is simple. They assured me the contacts are durable enough to handle the ~650 watts of the Bradley.
I can set the temp +/- range and the temp I want to maintian.
I need to mount mine in a plastic equipment box I got at Radio Shack w/ a hot and switched plugin mounted in the box--currently sits on the edge of the smoke generator and all the wires hang out the back.
I've only used it about 4 times, but it works great.
Good luck w/ whatever you choose.
Drano
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
What is required to wire this PID and connect it to the Bradley? I would like to order one but wondering what else is required.
Hey there drano; is there any way you can get me a couple of shots of the back and side of that baby so I can see the hook up. My big smoker draws 20 amps but if I get 2 of those I can split the heating elements and control them seperatly. I'm using a Johnson remote bulb control right now but the colder it gets oputside the more differental I get. Thanks.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by drano38</i>
<br />I'm sure the Raptor works great, but being the cheap skate I am, I got a Love model TS-13010 direct from the company for $50. It will run 16 amps.
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/temperature/SeriesTSPrice.cfm
Their tech staff was great, and hook up is simple. They assured me the contacts are durable enough to handle the ~650 watts of the Bradley.
I can set the temp +/- range and the temp I want to maintian.
I need to mount mine in a plastic equipment box I got at Radio Shack w/ a hot and switched plugin mounted in the box--currently sits on the edge of the smoke generator and all the wires hang out the back.
I've only used it about 4 times, but it works great.
Good luck w/ whatever you choose.
Drano
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Big or small you can smoke'm all!!!
Iceman, you might be better off using a single TS to control a 25-40A solid state relay. That setup would probably be more efficient, require less wiring and depending on the cost of the SSR, would be $20-40 cheaper.
Another advantage of the Love TS13010 is it comes w/ the temp probe for the $49.
I'll try to take picturs and post them this weekend.
Look at the <b>16 AMP</b> wiring diagram here:
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/PDFFILES/iom/temperature/DTS_iom.pdf
It is a slightly different model, but shows the correct wiring for the 16 amp SPST model. 8 amps are SPDT.
Here is how I wired it:
(standard lawyer comment, call manufacturer or see an electrician for proper wiring. I'm a pilot w/ an MBA. Shop class in high school many years ago does not make me a certified electrician).
-- the wiring slots are close together, so ensure the insulation is fairly close to the slot/clamp so you don't get bare wires next to touching.
1. Cut an 8' extension cord in half (or make your own w/ a male and female plugin w/ each end attached to about a 4' piece of 14 or 12 ga 3 wire cord)
2. Trim the outer insulation back so you have about 1-1.5" of the inner wires free.
3. Strip insulation off each wire so it fits into the binding slots
<u>Provide power to the controller w/ wires to slots 10 & 11</u>
1. White from male and female ends of cord into slot 11 (2 14ga wires is a tight fit, even when twisted together good)
2. Black from male end into slot 10
<u>Provide power to and thru the switch or "Output"</u>
1. Black jumper from slot 10 to slot 9 (provides power to the "switch")--you now have 2 black wires on slot 10
2. Black wire out of slot 8 to the female end of the cord
3. Wire nut the 2 green ground wires together
4. Put the ends from the temp probe on slots 1 and 2.
Big picture:
Black and white into 10 and 11 give power to the temp controller.
Running a black wire into 9 and out of 8 is the on/off switch. When the temp switch turns On, power goes to your female end of the cord the Bradley is pluged into.
Plug male into a house outlet, the Bradley heater plugs into the female end w/ temp selector on hi, the biscut cord plugs into a wall outlet. Program the controller, set it and forget it.
Got a little long, but anyone who understands basic wiring should be able to follow what I did.
TomG, I'd concur w/ nodak to get a relay so you can use one controller for the relay which can handle a larger load.
Drano
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phone Guy</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by drano38</i>
<br />I'm sure the Raptor works great, but being the cheap skate I am, I got a Love model TS-13010 direct from the company for $50. It will run 16 amps.
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/temperature/SeriesTSPrice.cfm
Their tech staff was great, and hook up is simple. They assured me the contacts are durable enough to handle the ~650 watts of the Bradley.
I can set the temp +/- range and the temp I want to maintian.
I need to mount mine in a plastic equipment box I got at Radio Shack w/ a hot and switched plugin mounted in the box--currently sits on the edge of the smoke generator and all the wires hang out the back.
I've only used it about 4 times, but it works great.
Good luck w/ whatever you choose.
Drano
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
What is required to wire this PID and connect it to the Bradley? I would like to order one but wondering what else is required.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Be forwarned. <b>The TS is NOT a PID controller.</b> Will it do the job? I think so. To help with Temp swings once your box is hot then slide your BS controller back closer to center. It will not take you long to figure out where to leave the slider. After that the TS should do just fine.
Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Thats correct, the TS is only an on/off switch, and sliding the Bradely temp control down once the smoker is stabilzed at your desired temp will reduce the on/off cycling.
The TS has a small LED on the front of it that illuminates to show that it is providing power to the Bradley.
Also, the +/- temp variance can be set. I think I have mine at +/- 3 deg, for a 6 degree spread.
The TS is not as good as a PID, but at $49 and simple setup, it works well for me.
Drano
Drano that sounds like a great economical alternative, unfortunately I jumped the gun and got a raptor. Thanks for info. may use it in future and will pass it on to a buddy of mine, that may be in the market.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font size="2"><b><font color="blue">The TS is not as good as a PID</font id="blue"></b></font id="size2"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I think the correct statement is the TS is not as effective as a PID controller, and that is important in some cases... With that said someone name me one item we smoke ... to include sausage ... that a 3 degree spread would hurt... I cannot think of one.
Believe it or not I have two TS. One for myself and one I'm sending to a friend.... Did I look at PID... yes. However, I got the TS in the beginning thinking it is a PID controller. Frankly it is so easy to hook up it is scary. Does it do the job? Yepper I'm very pleased...and I sleep at night good~~!
Is this to say you should not get a PID controller... no if you want one then get one... it will work very well. Sometimes folks like us begin to split hairs. It is up to you which hair or which hair not to split.
The TS works well... the medium box from Radio Shack will work.
For years I use to "feel" the smoke to tell the temp... now I'm lazy in my old age.
Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
I just ordered the TS-13010. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks for all the info guys. I DO NOT use my Bradley cabinet much so the slider control is out of the equation. The smoke generators are mounted on my larger commercial size smokers. I'm a fanatic about things being just right but as Olds said I couldn't think of anything that I would ever smoke that would get ruined by a 3 or 4 degree variance. Olds has seen one of my units and knows what I'm talking about so I think I'll try the TS first and see what happens. Thanks again for all the info.[8D]
Big or small you can smoke'm all!!!
OK tell me if I'm whacked again, but Raptor is going back I'm disappointed not only in price!!! Was going to smoke sausage this weekend. I found out the Competitor's lowest setting is 175F wanted to set it at 165F?. So plan is to order the TS model Monday morning asap unless advised otherwise.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font size="2">I found out the Competitor's lowest setting is 175F wanted to set it at 165F</font id="size2"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">175 F is a killer for sausage.
Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
FYI ya all, the TS controller was pretty well covered in the thread http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2424&whichpage=1
Norbert had the clever idea of removing the stock temp. slide from the front panel and replacing it with a TS controller, making it unnecessary to box the controller externally. If you wanted to keep the slide, I think there's enough room to cut a second hole in the panel for the controller. Apparently he had no problem with heat buildup in the bottom compartment and I think the 16A TS relay was enough to handle at least 1200 watts of heat element without a SSR.
OOPS! I just read the competitors' directions a little more, They say to put both probes in tin foil to fool it at holding meat temp setting. Which won't be a problem as I have remote thermometer I will also use for meat temp that has an alarm on it.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions, Will keep it as my wife likes the idea of hold temp feature to make it a little more care free(believe she's thinking I can get some of that honey do list done easier). Also I want to smoke a butt tonight and sausage on Sunday.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">FYI ya all, the TS controller was pretty well covered in the thread http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2424&whichpage=1
Norbert had the clever idea of removing the stock temp. slide from the front panel and replacing it with a TS controller, making it unnecessary to box the controller externally.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Not a good idea to remove the temperature slider for two reasons. First, leaving it in place will allow more control over temperature swings. Second, removing it will render your BS useless if you have any problems with your controller.
Also, for those of you in colder climates like me, check the specs. on your unit, whatever you buy, for the minimum ambient operating temperature.
Bubbagump
Hi Bubba,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Not a good idea to remove the temperature slider for two reasons. First, leaving it in place will allow more control over temperature swings.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> If you're using a thermocouple controlled switching system ie: TS, PID,Guru,Paktronics, the swings will be minimal.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Second, removing it will render your BS useless if you have any problems with your controller.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If that happens you can reinstall the slide or replace the controller. My bet is that the slide will fail long before the other controllers.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also, for those of you in colder climates like me, check the specs. on your unit, whatever you buy, for the minimum ambient operating temperature. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Where can I find that info for my BS?
Thanks-Tom-
I think I have a problem with my Guru/Competitor I'm seeing wide temp variance. It will run 15-20F higher than where I set it Than after 6 hours it seems to settle in and run right. I sand do as good job with slider. Is this thing malfunctioning?????? Guess I'll call them Monday morning. Anyone experience similar[?][?][?] Is there a minimum Ambient temp I didn't see???
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Hi TomG,
The specs. should be listed in the literature you get with your controller.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you're using a thermocouple controlled switching system ie: TS, PID,Guru,Paktronics, the swings will be minimal<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
As far as temperature swings go, the thermocouple has nothing to do with it. It is just sending the temp. to the controller.
The controller, which can be a PID, or thermostat like the TS, is what will determine the temp. swings. A PID will adjust its output as the temp. appoaches setpoint, thus eliminating overshoot and from there it will <u>maintain</u> setpoint. The TS on the other hand, just simply turns off the heating element when it reaches setpoint and turns it back on when goes below, within the deadband set.
The problem with using the TS, or any thermostat controller, without using the slide control is that the residual heat from the element will cause wider temp. swings. This will be even more of a problem for those that have added additional heat to the box.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If that happens you can reinstall the slide or replace the controller.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I agree, you can replace the slide if controller goes bad but that is not something you will be able to with the BS full of meat.
When I installed my PID I left the slide in place and just set it all the way to the right. I also installed SPDT switch on the back of the smoke generator so that if my PID where to crap out all I have to do is flip the switch and the BS temp. is then controlled by the slide rheostat on the front.
Bubbagump
Hi Bubba, I understand that the thermocouple is just a sensor. I mentioned it only to differentiate the controllers that use a thermocouple (PIDs, TS, and the Paktronics) from the BS rheostat controller. Since many posters seemed to either have purchased or were considering purchasing a TS, I thought that Norbert's installation might be of interest to them as an option to mounting the switch in a separate box with external wiring. I'm sitting on two PIDs and a Paktronics, all of which work well, but if I had to do it over I think I would get a 16 amp TS and mount it in the BS control panel, either in place of the slide or next to it. Call me thick, but I still don't understand how if the slide is all the way to the right and is being over ridden by a thermostat it can effect residual heat from the stock BS cooking element.
Nodak, sorry, I know this exchange isn't helping you with your Guru problems. I'm sure TheBBQGuru will come to the rescue.
Iceman,
You asked for some pics of the TS controller last week . .
I've never posted pics before, but here it goes.
This is an view of the complete unit:
(http://www.geocities.com/drano38/TS.JPG)
This is the back showing wires:
(http://www.geocities.com/drano38/TS_back.JPG)
Another one of the back:
(http://www.geocities.com/drano38/TS_top.JPG)
Hopefully this will help, along w/ the instructions posted earlier in the thread.
Drano
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font size="2">but I still don't understand how if the slide is all the way to the right and is being over ridden by a thermostat it can effect residual heat from the stock BS cooking element. </font id="size2"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> The elememt if all the way to the right when on is much hotter than say at mid-range. Thus it will take it longer to stop heating up the unit.
What is interesting about my TS is it is wired differantly than shown in the photo. It was suppost to be either an 8 and/ or a 16 amp contoller. However the set up for the 16 amp will not work. My controler has the same lay out for #1 and #2 but instead of #8 though #11 I have #7 though #11 with an option of "normally closed" or "normally open".
Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
For anyone interested in the method posted by drano38 in the UK, Dwyer have a UK website, the equivalent model appears to be the TS 13020 which retails for about £47 plus VAT and carriage.... say around £55-60.($90)
Not sure whether there are any equivalent units from UK suppliers which would work out cheaper?
www.dwyer-inst.co.uk
Would it be possible to post a picture of the whole thing in situ with the BS Drano, help me get the complete wiring set up clearer in my mind![:I]
Manxman.
I Understand the TS switch is effected by ambient air temp <14F, so how about ordering their 10 foot thermistor and setting smoker outside your house/garage with the switch inside??? After all, if it's that cold outside I can assure you my smoker isn't going to be any further than that from somewhere warm, Brrrrrrrr.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
manxman,
Here are some pics:
(http://www.geocities.com/drano38/TS_BS2.JPG)
(http://www.geocities.com/drano38/TS_BS_back.JPG)
Keep in mind the TS is simply an on/off switch, that also needs its own electical power to function. So my blue wire goes to the TS to provide it power, and the wire also jumps over to the Switch input and output terminals.
I plug the biscut heater into a wall outlet so it has continuous power.
I plug my blue power cord into the wall outlet, and the heating element cord into the other end of the blue cord. The blue cord gives the TS power, and the TS turns the power on and off for the heating element.
Hopefully the pictures help clear this up.
The other black wire seen coming out the TS is the temperature sensor that I insert into the top vent.
Call the UK Dwyer office and ask for a technical rep. The US office reps were very helpfull.
When I find more time, I will wire the TS into a Radio Shack plastic box and include 2 plugins--one constant on, and one swithced w/ the TS.
Good smoking.
drano, I checked out their website and see they have dual switches/input. Now could a guy wire these in line and have one going to the meat(not sure what kind of thermo end these come with)and one to smoker, so it would also maintain meat temp once it hits target temp(cutting power to smoker switch??? Haven't had time to work this out on paper to see if possible. Seen TSX when I quickly looked when I was working, not sure if this would be the one to work, but noticed only $6.00 more.
I should of worked this out b4 I mention it, so I don't look like a fool if I figure out I'm shooting my mouth off. If not maybe someone else will have an idea from this. Like to keep it economical if my guru goes back, so I can try this.
Only reason I was looking is I'm still having problems with my guru. They are confident it's accurate and my 3 thermometers are off 10 to 20+F for long intervals of time. Well I had just a little sausage left to smoke and is now 128F. The guru is on ramp set at 110F with the probes rapped together in tinfoil for cooler smoking.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
OK Nodak how is this for whacko? Get two TSs, setup one with a normally open(off)relay to control cabinet temp. Setup the other one in the normally closed(on)mode to control meat temp., so that when it's sensor, being used as a meat thermometer reaches the desired internal temp. it will shut down the whole system until the meat drops below target temp. at which point it will turn the system back on. Of course, that's assuming that the TS sensor can be used as a meat probe.[:o)]
Bingo Tomg, that's what my original thought was, but that's 2x$49 where the dual type(TSX) I seen was $55.00 plus probes, but as we speak I am looking further into it. I think TSX is cooling only not sure if they make one like I suggest with one switch able to be normally on open and other switch normally on closed on same unit, with two sensors?? Sensor price isn't really an issue as I think I would order a 10ft with the single switch cuz of temp requirement. Did I mention I was tight, even more so when I'm not happy with something that's more expensive.
What kind of equipment box were they talking about mounting this in??? Is this what I call a toolbox?? Does this need air circulation around it??? A
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Nodak,
Can't say on your idea to run 2 controls--it sounds like a great idea, and should work--meat unit says "On" until meat temp hits target, and then the air unit controls cooker temp.
But if you call the company and ask for tech rep, I bet they could tell you which control would work if any single one would. They should also be able to tell you about a meat probe.
Most of the controls do not come w/ a temp probe, but I believe they were only about $10.
The box I got to mount mine in is a project box from Radio Shack. I got the biggest one so I can also install 2 110 volt plugins, one hot, one switched w/ the TS. I plug the box into the wall, then the biscut/smoker into the hot plugin, and the heating element into the switched plugin. If you want to only mount the TS, one of the smaller ones would work well.
It doesn't apear to generate that much heat, so I'm not going to get too concerned. Manual says it will operate from 14 to 158 degrees F.
Keep us posted
Drano
Radio Shack calls them project boxes and you can get them in almost any size. Maybe someone who has used a TS, can tell you about how much heat it generates.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The elememt if all the way to the right when on is much hotter than say at mid-range. Thus it will take it longer to stop heating up the unit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Olds, I just saw your posting and I totally agree. But still don't understand why you need a rheostat in a system controlled by a thermostat, unless the heating element is too hot for the application and that has never been a complaint with our BSs. As far as residual heat is concerned, I can't think of any closed heating system where you don't try to decrease temp. swings by maximizing residual heat with insulation and heater element mass(heatsink?).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">manxman, Here are some pics:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Many thanks for the pics Drano, very helpful.[:)]
Manxman.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font size="2">Olds, I just saw your posting and I totally agree. But still don't understand why you need a rheostat in a system </font id="size2"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Simply to control temp. swings.
Set it up anyway you want, but having the element on High will add to the swing.
Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
Hi TomG,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But still don't understand why you need a rheostat in a system controlled by a thermostat, unless the heating element is too hot for the application and that has never been a complaint with our BSs.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That's like saying why do you need a rheostat on a light that's controlled by a switch? The reason is to control the intensity of the light, just like the rheostat on the BS controls the intensity of the heating element.
The TS is a fairly dumb device. I don't mean this as a critcism, it's just a fact. It just turns on and off based on the setpoint and deadband. It cannot make any adjustments to its output as the temperature nears setpoint. Therefore, when the temperature hits setpoint and the TS shuts the heating element off the residual heat left in the heating element will carry the temperature beyond setpoint. How far beyond depends on the intensity of the heating element and the space in which to absorb it. The higher the intensity of the heat and the smaller the space, the more likely you are to have greater temperature swings. Keep in mind, the BS is a fairly small cabinet.
Since the TS is not a PID using the rheostat will give you the ability to control your BS temperature with a little more precision.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As far as residual heat is concerned, I can't think of any closed heating system where you don't try to decrease temp. swings by maximizing residual heat with insulation and heater element mass(heatsink?).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Run that one by me again. Not quite sure what you mean by that.
Bubbagump
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bubbagump</i>
The TS is a fairly dumb device. .<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
This is exactly why it will work for me.[;)] I am looking for a simple temp control. I would like to see Bradley incorporate a TS or some other digital temp display on the BS. $50 is the cost to buy one. If Bradley were to by say 5000 at a time the cost would be quite a bit less.
Phone guy would you pay <$90 for double switch one for cabinet and one for meat?? I talked to them today and they were pointing to a TSS but needs a 12V power supply, Not sure what I need to feed the 12V[?][?] here's the link (http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/temperature/qstemperaturetoc.cfm) and click on what switch you think might work for specs. He told me for 1000 watts need 8.3 amps, I think BS heater is 750? so should be alright. They could also customize probes for our needs, anyone else have thoughts or know about these switches in-depth.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
Hi Bubba, thanks for the reply to my ranting. Because I switched to a PID 2 months after I got my BS, I have to admit that I've had very little experience with the rheostat. The slide is always as far right as it will go and once the PID starts doing its fuzzy thing, temp. swings are minimal.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That's like saying why do you need a rheostat on a light that's controlled by a switch? The reason is to control the intensity of the light, just like the rheostat on the BS controls the intensity of the heating element.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That is exactly my point. I think the cooking element(quartz?) acts more like a light bulb than say a heating coil. When you switch off a rheostat controlled light bulb it stops emitting light regardless of how dim or bright it was before being turned off.
Tomorrow I'll try a simple experiment and if I'm wrong I owe you a 12 pack of bisquettes.[:)]
Tomg I'll be waiting for your post, I was going to order one in the morning, but will wait another day for your post. hope your experiment goes well. Also deciding between single and double switch. Any thoughts on my previous post just before your last one, but on previous page??? The 12 volt supply also confused me?
Here's a kicker: I seen a single switch with 2 probes. Top and bottom of smoker? would this cycle too much? or doesn't work like I think it would???
With the activity on this subject now and previous you would think it would catch somebody's attention at bradley to buil a better mouse trap(smoker).
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When you switch off a rheostat controlled light bulb it stops emitting light regardless of how dim or bright it was before being turned off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
TomG,
You are correct, the light does go away quickly but the <u>heat</u> generated does not. The brighter the bulb the greater the heat generated and the longer it will take to dissipate the heat once turned off.
Bubbagump
i ordered the ts13010... it should be here friday...
im gonna wire it up and smoke a full load of pig butt and cow brisket and whole boned possium...
ill either figure out or burn the place to the ground...
you gotta eat...
owrstrich
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">ill either figure out or burn the place to the ground...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That's the spirit! [:D][:D]
Bubbagump
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font size="2">whole boned possium...
</font id="size2"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Yuck rug rat on a stick... Momma~~! [;)]
Olds
(http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/gif/Launch47.gif)
If the possum don't come out, save it for Crabbing. Those crabs love that stuff. Easiest way to crab it to tie a rope to the bone and toss it out the boat and pull them in and catch them with a net when they hit the surface. The big ons hold on the best on that rat.
Let us know how the TS works. I have the 2 TS idea rolling in my head giving me a headache. GFCI wired to 2nd TS with meat probe to cut all the power and alarm on a regular Therm to say "Ding, dinner's done - FTC me please"
Sorry! It's too cold(53*) and too wet(showers) to go out and spark up the BS today.[V] Not having anything better to do, I hooked up a spare BS rheostat in series with a 120v/10w light bulb and an ampmeter and tried to calibrate output over the slide's 2-inch travel. I measured and recorded mAmps every ¼" from the left "off" position to the full right sided "on" position. I'm not sure this is a valid way to calibrate but the numbers did checkout.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/ampchart.jpg)
Granted my sample of one is small, but if other rheostats are comparable and assuming that this data can be extrapolated to the BS 4 Amp load, only the last one inch of slide throw controls the cooking element heat. And possibly even more interesting, in max current position, all the way to the right the rheostat is only delivering 93% of available current.
Yikes! I think it's time to try to stop my wife's leaking kitchen faucet and hope that salmon season opens soon.[:)]
Hey Nodak;
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Any thoughts on my previous post just before your last one, but on previous page??? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I don't know to which post you're referring. I'm losing sleep and getting more and more confused trying to keep up with Bubbagump. Why don't you repost your questions and let's see if we can get them answered. This thread may produce some interesting solutions to the temp control problem.[:o)]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nodak</i>
<br />Phone guy would you pay <$90 for double switch one for cabinet and one for meat?? I talked to them today and they were pointing to a TSS but needs a 12V power supply, Not sure what I need to feed the 12V[?][?] <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'm not a genius but if the input was 12vdc how would this control your BS that is AC powered? There would have to be a relay after the TS and before the Bradley, I think.[?]
The 12 volt AC/DC TSS would require a separate power supply. The 12 volts would be strictly to power the TS. If you used the BS power it would have to transformed down to 12 volts, which is another component taking up more space. If it were me I would power the TSS with a 12 volt plug-in transformer.
Bubbagump
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bubbagump</i>
<br />The 12 volt AC/DC TSS would require a separate power supply. The 12 volts would be strictly to power the TS. If you used the BS power it would have to transformed down to 12 volts, which is another component taking up more space. If it were me I would power the TSS with a 12 volt plug-in transformer.
Bubbagump
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ok, if I have a TSS and a 12 power supply connected to the input. where is the BS going to connect? If to the TSS, where is the AC voltage coming from? If the input on the TSS is 12vdc the output can't be AC. Unless there was a converter in there. Now the way I see it, which may be incorrect, is you would have to use the TSS simply to control a relay thats turning on and off the BS.
Some please correct me if I'm wrong.
The TSS would run off 12v, to activate the 110v switch, so you wire in 110v from wall to TSS than wire the smoker to the TSS switch. All the 12v is to run switch between the 110v. Other wise you run jumper to power switch if it's 110 from wire that connects to wall.
Back to thinking about 2 seperate swiches as I would have to add converter than just as economical to buy 2 seperate switches powered by 110V.
Clear as mud now for sure?????
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
The TSS operates on 12 volts AC or DC.
It seems odd they don't offer this model in 120 volt.
Bubbagump
tg...
thanks for doing that... i was wondering how sliders work... my sliders never lasted long enough to get an accurate assessment of the situation...
dang... now im craving a 10 sack...
(http://whitecastle.com/_assets/images/food/menu/cheeseburger_lg.jpg)
you gotta eat...
owrstrich
Owrstrich: Now you're talkin'!!!! Last time I was back in Michigan, got a sack of 12. Brought back memories....
Arcs_n_Sparks
I just received my TS last night. I will get it wired and tested today.
pg... send photos... my order is set for delivery on 1-24...
you gotta eat...
owrstrich
PG please let us know your results. I put off ordering mine 'til Monday, as I'm going to Mexico for 7 days and figured I would check out your results first, as I wouldn't be home to use it any way. Figure it can't be any more disappointing than the Raptor I'm returning.
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
mexico... this is the real stuff...
http://www.gusanorojo.com
(http://www.gusanorojo.com/english/products/MesBola.jpg)
be safe...
owrstrich
Sorry it's taking so long to get back with info on the BS rheostat. I'm having a hell of a time trying to post graphics. Also just came across Old's Nov. posting which is probably a must read. http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2499
Hi TomG,
Are you referring to the information that Olds got from Dywer tech support about the TS not working with the BS? If you are it was incorrect information.
Trust me, it's not the first time a person from a tech support dept. gave out bad or incorrect information. Try calling Dell tech support sometime and you'll see what I mean.
Bubbagump
I haven't taken photos yet but I was able to get it wired and tested. I think I need to work through the programming a little more to fine tune things. I performed a simple test by setting the temp to 120F and monitored the swings and accuracy using my Maverick as a comparison. The results were very good. The temps were almost the same on both displays (TS and ET-73) The Ts shut off the Bradley at 120f but the temp continued to climb to 124. I had the variable set to 3 deg so it didn't turn back on until the temp dropped to 117. I didn't have a lot of time but a more accurate test needs to be done. I think tonight I'll try a 200 deg setting and monitor the swings. I can tell this is a good investment.
If someone has this setup already, can you tell me the best programming setup? There are several different parameters and I'm not sure which one I need to worry about.
Thanks PG, keep us posted. I'll be ordering mine by wed. unless you tell me not to. How long did it take to get yours???
"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."
pg... i will be figuring it out very soon too... interested on you 200 deg findings...
nd... i ordered one on i-18-06...
my ups tracking is 1Z4426500347619231 if you want to go to http://ups.com/content/us/en/index.jsx and follow its travels...
Status:
In Transit -
On Time
Scheduled Delivery: 01/24/2006
Shipped to: ANAHEIM, CA, US
Shipped or Billed on: 01/18/2006
Tracking Number: 1Z 442 650 03 4761 923 1
Service Type: GROUND
Weight: 1.00 Lb
Note: Your package is in the UPS system and is on
time with a scheduled delivery date of
01/24/2006.
Package Progress:
Location Date Local Time Activity
HODGKINS, IL, US 01/19/2006 3:18 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
TRI-CITY, IN, US 01/18/2006 11:00 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
01/18/2006 7:51 P.M. ORIGIN SCAN
US 01/18/2006 5:55 P.M. BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED
Tracking results provided by UPS: 01/23/2006 9:47 P.M. Eastern Time (USA)
crazy aint it...
owrstrich
Drano,
How do you have your TS programmed? I think I have mine correct but am not happy with the temp swings I seem to be getting. I tried a 210 deg setting with a 3 deg variance and the temp would drop to 188 then shut off at 210 and continue to 215. Thats 27 degrees. I need to practice a little.
pg... just opened the box... wont get it wired and checked out till thurs or fri...
owrstrich
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phone Guy</i>
<br />Drano,
I tried a 210 deg setting with a 3 deg variance and the temp would drop to 188 then shot off at 210 and continue to 215. Thats 27 degrees. I need to practice a little.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
PG,
If your BS was empty when you tested the TS it would have cooled down much more quickly after the heating element was cycled off rather than if it were filled with meat. Having it filled with meat will help retain the heat and should help reduce the big drop in temp.
To get an accurate test you should really load it with something and use as you normally do.
Bubbagump
good advice gump... thats what ill do fri night... gonna have a full smoker...
thanks...
owrstrich
Earlier in this thread I suggested the rheostat probably had little affect on temperature fluctuations when a thermostat controlled the oven, and that if there was any interest in duplicating Norbert's installation, there would be next to no down side replacing the slide, in the panel, with a TS. I was speculating that because the cooking element had so little weight(mass) that it would be a poor heatsink and would not retain enough residual heat to be a problem.
Bubbagump responded; <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Not a good idea to remove the temperature slider for two reasons. First, leaving it in place will allow more control over temperature swings. Second, removing it will render your BS useless if you have any problems with your controller.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Oldman offered; <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The elememt if all the way to the right when on is much hotter than say at mid-range. Thus it will take it longer to stop heating up the unit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The Question: Will changing the rheostat output effect temperature swings and if so how much?
Setup:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/setup.jpg)
My BS with a Coldfusion PID used as a K thermocoupled digital thermometer. The oven was empty, the damper was 1/3rd open, and the ambient temp. was 64*(Yeah, eat your hearts out!)
Method: The temperature was controlled with a very dumb switch(yours truly), I pulled the plug on the upswing when the thermometer reached 200* and put the plug back in when it hit 200* on the downswing. I repeated that routine for 3 cycles for each of the slide settings (1 ½" and 2" from the left sided off position), recorded and charted the results.
Results:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/Rheoamp.jpg)
Calibration of a spare BS rheostat suggested that 70% of control was in the last 1" of slide travel and in the far right position it was delivering only 93% of available current.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/tempchart3.jpg)
The average temperature swing with the slide at 1 ½" was 196*–202*. At 2"(all the way to the right) it was 196*-207*. Initially, at 1 ½" it took 27 minutes to reach 200*, but only 12 minutes with the slide at 2". It then took an average of 6 minutes and 3 minutes respectively to get back to 200* when the heater was cycled.
Bottom line: In my BS, using only the cooking element as a heat source, with a target temp of 200*, the temperature swing at 2 different slide settings (1 ½" and 2" to the right) where the output at the lower setting was approximately 70% of the higher setting, there was a measurable, but minimal difference in temperature swings ie; 196-202* at 1 ½" versus 196-207*.
However there was a very significant difference in the time it took to get to the target temp. From an ambient temperature of 64*, it took 27 minutes to reach target at the 1 ½' setting and only 12 minutes at the 2" setting. The comparable times for cycling was 6 and 3 minutes. At the maximum slide setting you can expect a few degrees increase in swing, but for me, that would be more than offset by a much shorter lag time to heat the oven.
As far as Bubba's 2nd reason for not removing the rheostat; <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">removing it will render your BS useless if you have any problems with your controller.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Owrstrich's experience; <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">my sliders never lasted long enough to get an accurate assessment of the situation<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">... suggests that a spare might not be a bad idea even if you don't install a thermostat.
Bubbag, the swing difference was more than I thought it was going to be, so I owe you a 12 pack of Bisquettes in flavor of your choice as longs as it's Special Blend.
Nice work TG!
For those that use the TS with the rheostat, as Olds mentioned earlier, leave the rheostat all the way to the right when preheating and after placing meat in the BS. This will allow the box to come up to temp. much faster. After the temp stabilizes a bit you can back off on the rheostat to help minimize temp swings.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Bubbag, the swing difference was more than I thought it was going to be, so I owe you a 12 pack of Bisquettes in flavor of your choice as longs as it's Special Blend.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
No payment necessary TG, I've really enjoyed this thread.
It will be interesting to see what results Owrstrich comes up with.
Thanks TG,
Bubbagump
I also am holding on my order for the TS till next week to see others experience. And more info on the programming.
Phone Guy,
I think I have +/- 3 degrees set on mine--can't tell right now because I have the wires off and moving it into a Radio Shack project box, and don't have power wires hooked up yet.
I used it once before my rewire project. I was doing 5 three lb sticks of summer sausage and the temp did not come up to 168 deg until the meat almost got there and I was done, so I don't know how well it will hold temp, or how big the swings are.
I'd guess +/- 2 or 3 should be OK. The PIDs will do better than that, but don't know if it really matters. For me, $50 and simple setup works great. Others who like setting up electronics will enjoy the PID.
Drano
Just in case it isn't common knowledge, a Dremel with a cutting disc works great for cutting holes in the plastic sides of the project boxes.[:)]
As is a reversed mini-saw blade. Makes a heck of a mess thou.
You can also use the dremel quick cut bit that cuts side-ways.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TomG</i>
<br />Just in case it isn't common knowledge, a Dremel with a cutting disc works great for cutting holes in the plastic sides of the project boxes.[:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yep, I second that. I installed my PID in my smoke generator and used a dremmel for that as well. Worked great.
Bubbagump
this is how i wired the ts13010 switch...
went 3 prong male cord out of back of smoke generator into switch... went switch out to 3 prong female into back of bradley...
the switch is simply like pluging and unpluging the bradley power cord... i made sure it was making and breaking and all is well...
tonight i have about 40 pounds of beast going in... gonna set the switch at 200 deg and 1 deg differential... will adjust as necessary to get temp and diff proper and report back here...
thanks for all the input folks... now i wish i could have found a box fot the switch but no go so far... any ideas...
owrstrich
Ow, here is what I use:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062284&cp=2032058&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032058&categoryId=2032058&kwCatId=2032058&kw=project+box&parentPage=search
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid1.jpg)
13010 performance... contains five updates...
heres what i gotts... ill set it up for you... i gotts 3 rack to a full load... 12lbs pork on bottom... 5 lbs corned beef next to bottom... 12lb brisket next to top.. 1lb layer of bacon on top...
13010 probe in middle... between next to top rack and next to bottom rack... 73 probe same...
70 deg no wind... venting with fan and duct... vent 1/4 open... slider all way right... puck burner on...
13010 reads 200 the 73 probe reads 204.. 13010 probe reads 191 the 73 probe reads 195... gotts 2 deg each way i guess...
first update...
started unwarmed...40 deg internal... now fully warmed at 200 deg and 60 deg internal... fan on...
2 deg diff option...
200 deg 2 deg diff... cut out at 200... 1 min later temp only goes to 201 and starts falling... 1 min later its at 197 and ts cuts in... temp falls all way to 191 in 4 min then starts rising back to 200 in 6mins...
200 deg 2 deg diff = cycle is 12 mins and has a 10 deg temp swing before cutting out again...
1 deg diff option...
200 deg 1 deg diff... cut out at 200... 1 min later temp only goes to 201 and starts falling... 1 min later its at 198 and ts cuts in... temp falls all way to 193 in 3 min then starts rising back to 200 in 5mins...
200 deg 1 deg diff = cycles is 10 mins and has a 8 deg temp swing before cutting out again...
second update... 200 deg and 145 deg internal... fan on...
i pulled the pork at 145 internal and now just have to 2 briskets and the bacon... no change from above being loaded 12lbs less from 30lbs to 18lbs... with briskets at 140 internal...
ill bump it and stick with 203 temp and 1 def diff for now... im thinking thats giving me real 205 high and real 197 low approx average 200 to 202 deg... thats wonderful...
tom... my set up will look the same when i get it in an enclosure... i got the enclosure last night at frys electronics but will not be able to cut the holes until tomorrow... im using the same electrical plugs and just have it sitting on top the bs right now for its first go...
third update... 203 deg 160 deg internal... fan on...
gump...
info above was 7 hours in... briskets were at 140...
right now im 14 hours into it and the briskets are at 160 deg...
i bumped the ts to 203 at the 7 hour mark in attempt to get a 200 average...
right now... 203 deg 1 deg diff... cut out at 203... 1 min later temp only goes to 206 and starts falling... 1 min later its at 201 and ts cuts in... 4 min later temp falls to 195... then starts rising back to 203 in 10 min...
203 deg 1 deg diff = cycle is 16 mins and has a 11 deg temp swing before cutting out again... 205 high 195 low... 16 minutes rise and fall for approx 200 average...
note... i turned my fan off for a few minutes and noticed rise to fall for approx 200 average was 12 minutes compared to 16 with the fan on... my fan maybe a little too strong for my relief holes... but i have to move enough air to overcome the prevailing winds hitting the window without smoking up the place... just one of those deals...
fourth update... 203 deg 185 deg internal... fan off...
right now... 203 deg 1 deg diff... cut out at 203... 1 min later temp only goes to 208 and starts falling... 1 min later its at 201 and ts cuts in... 3 min later temp falls to 198... then starts rising back to 203 in 5 min...
203 deg 1 deg diff = cycle is 10 mins and has a 10 deg temp swing before cutting out again... 208 high 198 low... 10 mins rise and fall for approx 203 average...
so... it appears the hotter the meat the more overshoot after cut out with the same amount of fall relative to the meat temp... all in all i like the unit cause i know i can set it at 203 deg with 1 deg diff and can avarage approx 200 to 203 depending on meat temp...
fifth and final... 203 deg 190 deg internal... fan off...
im 20 hours in and the only thing left in the bs is the 12lber and its coming out... i noticed higher than normal temps between 185 and 190 internal...
right now... 203 deg 1 deg diff... cut out at 203... 1 min later temp only goes to 213 and starts falling... 3 min later its at 201 and ts cuts in... 3 min later temp falls to 200... then starts rising back to 203 in 3 min...
203 deg 1 deg diff = cycle is 10 mins and has a 13 deg temp swing before cutting out again... 213 high 200 low... 10 mins rise and fall for approx 206 average...
im out... the corned beef has been ftc for 5 hours... gotts to go try it... the 12lber was on top for 15 hours and took 5 hours longer than the 5lber...
for $49 unit... $8 shipping... $10 other supplies... $67 total for all...
thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread as well as others who posted their analog and digital set ups on other threads over the last couple years...
owrstrich
here is a photo of the love controls technician who came out to program the 13010...
i told him the bs needed to remain vertical and not to put that computer under it... but he had duct tape... i was ok with that...
(http://www.mistupid.com/pictures/images/portablepc.jpg)
Hi Owrstrich,
Out of curiosity, how far into cooking where your readings taken?
Bubbagump
Thanks for the updates Owrstrich.
With the tests you and TomG have done, along with the pictures, it should give anyone who's uncertain whether they want to buy the TS all the info they need to decide.
Thanks again.[:)]
Bubbagump
Sold!
I am ordering one and built my own setup. For the price, its worth getting, if only to reduce the amount of time I need to go out and adjust that slider. Thanks for the detail Owrstrich and TomG. and Owrstrich, what picture. I am also curious which programming parameters you setle are your best bet.
wood... its a simple temp activated on/off temp switch... you will have it programmed in 60 seconds... the only thing i changed was temp range from factory to -50 and 300... diffetential from factory to 1... set point from factory to 203...
social distortion...
owrstrich
Maybe a certain "Sacred Cow" chip should be the next mission impossible? [}:)]
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/chip.jpg)
Hmm....a shop press, a heavy walled steel pipe for a form, the right mixture of chips and binding...and a few tons of pressure....who knows?[:)]
When its brown it's cookin'. When its black it's done!
TomG
I noticed the probe wire you used in your TS is different than what came with the 13010, also you used a different TS model.
Question. Is it possible to mount a plug to the 2-wire probe input to a plug-in that any oven/smoker probe can be plugged into? What type of plug is it?
Is that burnt-orange carpet? Is that a Longhorn cow chip?
Here is my offer...The first one to figure out the "Secret of Binding" or, SOB as we shall now call it, will win one all-you-can-eat excursion at the Salt Lick BBQ (near Austin, Texas), AND I will bring all the beer. Budweiser.
Of course you will have to come to Austin first. And warn me in advance. Anyway, I have a Pecan tree that needs felling and I would love to home-engineer some bisquettes. Everyone here knows it will be done eventually someday, so lets get it started! :)
I would guess it is some inert starch. Corn or rice. Something odorless of course. Maybe I am wrong. It is possible that aliens gave them the recipe. That is probably a whole 'nother web forum.
Longhorns & Cowboys. BBQ of Champions.
IKW, the controller in my picture is a Coldfusion PID. The probe is a type K thermocouple and to the best of my knowledge, plug in connectors are available for most thermocouples. But be aware that thermocouple wires and plugs are type specific. The most common, types K and J, require either K or J wire and plugs.
Twolone, wheat flour paste may work as a good binder and I'll bet minimal compression is required.
I believe the TS probe is a thermistor and not a thermocouple.
Bubbagump
OK, my bad, that's why they are different.
Anyway, my TS 13010 is in and I got the box and some cords, plugs and all. I am putting it all together.
I also got a inline pole switch to try to install the puck advance motor switch like bubbagump has.
I will take pics when I am done.
its friday and i got the day off... but i have to work the next 16 consecutive days... so we i got 4 8lb bone in butts from winco foods...
i didnt slather and rubb at all just popped them in yesterday with 4 hours of apple... just got done pulling and mixing with balsamic vaulted vinegar and crushed red pepper...
it was a 20 hour smoke at approx 200 average... this is what i did to try to keep the hi temp from going way hi once the meat got to 170...
70 deg... using fan and duct for ventilation... vent open 1/4... slider all way right... i was going to turn down the slider but instead i turned the puck burner off... the effect was this...
200 set point...
when the ts cut out the temp didnt rise past the 200 set point... fell to 192 cut then back up to 200... it took 4 minutes to fall 8 deg and 6 mins to rise 8 deg... 8 deg swing over 10 minutes with meat 170... 196 avarage...
made change to 204 set point...
when the ts cut out the temp didnt rise past the 204 set point... fell to 196 cut then back up to 204... it took 4 minutes to fall 8 deg and 6 mins to rise 8 deg... 8 deg swing over 10 minutes with meat 170... 200 avarage...
prior to turning puck burner off... when the ts cut out the temp went past the set point by 1 to 6 deg... the hotter the meat the greater to overshoot... 1 deg overshoout at 120 internal 6 deg overshoot at 170 internal... the fall and rise back to set point is about the same...
so... turning down slider or turning off puck burner will lower the overshoot once the meat gets hot...
you gotta eat...
owrstrich
Makes perfect sense. Sounds like you got it figured out pretty well.
Thanks for the info [:)]
Bubbagump
I would like to take a moment to thank everyone on the forum. I just rigged up a coldfusion PID to my smoker, and it works great!!. I would not have been able to do this if it where not for all of the great ideas and communication on this sight. The PID controlls the temperature very well, and makes a great product even better. Now I can "set it and forget it"
Tommorrow I'm smoking some fresh steelhead with Kummok's recipe. Should turn out great as usuall, but with a lot less work on the slide controll for the temp.
common sense isnt common
Hi bugboat,
Glad to hear everything is working great. Now it's time to relax and have a beer. [:D]
Bubbagump
Are the ColdFusion controllers hard to program? Thanks...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gary_CO</i>
<br />Are the ColdFusion controllers hard to program? Thanks...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
From my experience none of the lower price PID's are hard to program. If you get one that has an auto tune feature there is nothing to it.
Bubbagump
Gary-CO take a look at http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2968 . BubbaG's idea of using a SSR drive PID, for the same $, seems like a better choice than the Coldfusion.
Thanks TomG. I'm trying to follow all the PID threads. In between here and reading about the coffee machine mods people have made, I think I understand how these things work (a little bit, anyway).
I got my Coldfusion PID on E-bay. Around 36.00 plus shipping. It did not come with programing instructions and I could not fiqure it out. After repeted E-mails I finally recieved the instructions. It is usiversal and can be used with any type thermocouple, celsuis or farenheit, and 3 different temp controll parameters, plus autotuning.
Auto tuning seems to controll the Bradley pretty good. But the other 3 parameters dont do too well. I still need to experiment more. The PID has a relay out up to 3 amps and also a SSR DC out. Once I got the instructions it was pretty easy to set up. Auto tuning is easy it just takes a little while for the unit to program itself. And this needs to be done every time you use it. It came with a type K thermocouple that does not seem to be very accurate. I have to offset the temperature setting 40 degrees at a 200 degree set point.
The higher the temp the more the offset. At 32 degrees the offset was negative 7 degrees. I will try a new thermocouple to see if this is the problem.
common sense isnt common
Bugboat,
Sounds like you may have some setup issues. Be sure that the PID is programmed for the Type K thermocouple. What are you comparing the thermocouple output temp to? If you have the same problem after trying a new thermocouple then it's something in your setup.
When you mention 3 diferent control parameters are you talking about Proportiona band, Intregal time, and Derivative time? If so, these are the three parameters that auto tune sets up for you. These parameters can be set up manually but unless you are very familar PID control and how each of these parameters affects the controllers performance, I wouldn't advise it. Auto tune works just fine. But it is not possible to accurately tune your PID if you are getting inaccurate readings from your thermocouple or if the input parameter is set up wrong. You need to get that issue resolved before you can tune your PID
Auto tuning should not have to be done everytime you use the PID. It is just used for initial setup. As I mentioned, it sets up the <u>Proprotional</u> band, <u>Intergal</u> time, and <u>Derivative</u> time, (PID) along with other parameters. What you should do is get your smoker within 10 degrees of setpoint and then initiate auto tune. After it is finished your PID parameters should be set up.
Also, be sure your SSR output is not for cooling only. If I remember right the Cold Fusion PID's on ebay that had an SSR output were for cooling only.
Bubbagump
Well I'll type this out again....
Here is a link to the documentation for the TET-7100 Coldfusion PID on E-bay:
http://greenacresgypsum.com/TET7100PID.pdf
I had the same problem with the included thermocouple not being accurate. I replaced mine. I've only smoked 3 times since I built my PID controller, and I haven't had the results that I expected yet. I think part of my porblem is that I haven't run the autotune with the smoker loaded. I was still seeing around a 5-10 degree swing during my last smoke. Hopefully, tuning with meat in the smoker will dial in the tuning.
-Rick
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bubbagump</i>
<br />Bugboat,
Sounds like you may have some setup issues. Be sure that the PID is programmed for the Type K thermocouple. What are you comparing the thermocouple output temp to? If you have the same problem after trying a new thermocouple then it's something in your setup.
When you mention 3 diferent control parameters are you talking about Proportiona band, Intregal time, and Derivative time? If so, these are the three parameters that auto tune sets up for you. These parameters can be set up manually but unless you are very familar PID control and how each of these parameters affects the controllers performance, I wouldn't advise it. Auto tune works just fine. But it is not possible to accurately tune your PID if you are getting inaccurate readings from your thermocouple or if the input parameter is set up wrong. You need to get that issue resolved before you can tune your PID
Auto tuning should not have to be done everytime you use the PID. It is just used for initial setup. As I mentioned, it sets up the <u>Proprotional</u> band, <u>Intergal</u> time, and <u>Derivative</u> time, (PID) along with other parameters. What you should do is get your smoker within 10 degrees of setpoint and then initiate auto tune. After it is finished your PID parameters should be set up.
Also, be sure your SSR output is not for cooling only. If I remember right the Cold Fusion PID's on ebay that had an SSR output were for cooling only.
Bubbagump
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I had a similar temp inaccuracy with my PID which I corrected by adjusting the "temp error correction" function until the LED indicated 212* when the probe was in boiling water. Confirmed with a 32* reading with probe in ice
rgardjr and bugboat,
When initiating auto tune, I would recommend using either parameter 1 or 2 rather than 0. The quicker your PID responds the more likely you will over or undershoot your setpoint. That may sound odd but with PID control in our application the more gradual the changes are to the output the better the PID will hold setpoint.
When I set up my PID I used the more gradual control algorithm and initiated auto tune with the smoker empty. I can hold setpoint to within 1/2 a degree.
TG,
That is how I tested my thermocouple as well and found it to be within 2 degrees or 1%. But bugboat had a 40 degree difference [:0] something's wrong.
Bubbagump
Thanks bubbagump. My PID is the same one as rgardjr
has. I thought that outotuning was a 4th paramator, seperate from
0,1,2, and that it defaulted back to your set paramator after unplugging. I quess it makes sense now. Until about a month ago I
didnt even know what a PID was. I originally had a bulb thermostat
from an old coffee pot rigged up to the Bradley. It worked OK but
way under and over shot my set point. Thats why I sprung for the PID. I'm currently testing another thermocouple I borrowed from work. The PID was set up correctly for a type "K" thermocouple that the unit came with. I suspect that it is defective. It was fairly accurate at 32 degrees, but way off at boiling.
common sense isnt common
Problem solved. The thermocouple that came with the coldfusion PID
works just fine. The problem was how I had mounted it in the smoker.
I didnt want to have to snake a bunch of wires through the top of the vent, so I drilled a hole in the back of the smoker and mounted it just under the second shelf. Directly opposite of the stock thermometer that comes with the Bradley. This thermocouple has a very
short probe. It seems that the metal wall of the smoker was acting as
a heat sink and was sucking heat away from the thermocouple. The hotter the smoker got the farther off the thermocouple was because of the cold outside temperatures. So the solution would be to buy a
thermocouple with a longer probe that puts it away from the wall of the smoker. Or I think I will Make some sort of metal "stand off" that I will mount to the back wall and then mount the thermocouple to it.
After autoprogramming and then letting the smoker temp stabilize, I was able to hold a consistant 199 degrees with the set point at 200.
It wouldnt even very a single degree.
My next project is to put in a fan to mix the air, so I can have stable temps from top to bottom. I think this would be great for jerky. You wouldn't have to rotate the racks. I know a few people here have tried this, but I havnt heard much about the results yet.
Anyone care to share their experiences with fans?
common sense isnt common
Bugboat-
I did an autotune on my tonight, but I was still seeing around a 5 degree temp swing. Did you change to the 1 or 2 parameter? I know my problem isn't with my thermocouple because it does register the temp changes and I tested it in boiling water and it was within 1 degree of my Maverick. Any chance you could post or send me your autotune values (P,I,D, ect.)? I just don't understand why it's not holding the temp better and I'm beginning to think it that I may have a defective PID. Mine just doesn't cycle the element on long enough to maintain the set point. It will cycle on quickly and continue to do this until the temp falls about 5 degrees and then it will bump back up. My set point was 210 and I'm guessing that it averaged 207. I was seeing anything from 205 to 209. I will try then autotune again with the parameter 1 set to see if it does a better job.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bugboat</i>
<br />Problem solved. The thermocouple that came with the coldfusion PID
works just fine. The problem was how I had mounted it in the smoker.
I didnt want to have to snake a bunch of wires through the top of the vent, so I drilled a hole in the back of the smoker and mounted it just under the second shelf. Directly opposite of the stock thermometer that comes with the Bradley. This thermocouple has a very
short probe. It seems that the metal wall of the smoker was acting as
a heat sink and was sucking heat away from the thermocouple. The hotter the smoker got the farther off the thermocouple was because of the cold outside temperatures. So the solution would be to buy a
thermocouple with a longer probe that puts it away from the wall of the smoker. Or I think I will Make some sort of metal "stand off" that I will mount to the back wall and then mount the thermocouple to it.
After autoprogramming and then letting the smoker temp stabilize, I was able to hold a consistant 199 degrees with the set point at 200.
It wouldnt even very a single degree.
My next project is to put in a fan to mix the air, so I can have stable temps from top to bottom. I think this would be great for jerky. You wouldn't have to rotate the racks. I know a few people here have tried this, but I havnt heard much about the results yet.
Anyone care to share their experiences with fans?
common sense isnt common
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
rjardjr,
This is the procedure I would use to setup autotune. First, start your smoker and put in a setpoint of 200 degrees. Select autotune paremeter 2 but wait until your smoker is within 10 degrees of setpoint (190) before you start autotune. When autotune is finished let your smoker run for an hour or so to see how well it holds setpoint.
If you find your smoker temp. lagging below setpoint then start over and try autotune parameter 1. When I say start over I mean to shut off your smoker and open the door to let it cool down. Repeat the above procedure using parameter 1 and see if you get better results.
If your are still not happy with the results you can try parameter 0, but from my experience this can cause the PID to "hunt" for setpoint, which can result in over or undershooting setpoint.
On my PID (Red Lion) I ended up using atuotune parameter 1, I did try them all though.
Bubbagump
rgardjr, I used parameter 1. This seemed to work well.
I did notice some problems when I smoked steelhead this past weekend using Kummock's recipe. The recipe calls for smoking the salmon first at 100 degrees then 140 and finally 175. When smoking at 100 degrees the heat from the smoke generator rose the temp above the 100 degree set point. The PID was trying to controll the temp at 100 degrees by having the heat off. But the heat was still rising. This seemed to get the PID lost. And it didnt work well after that. Even after raising the set point. At least that is what I think happened.
From experience I have found that once a computer looses its way and gets lost you need to start all over.
I also had the thermocouple mounted to the back wall during this smoke. This could have been the problem also.
Let me know if you get your PID woking properly, and I could give you my PID settings. Really a 10 degree swing doesnt sound that bad.
common sense isnt common
bugboat,
I would agree that the placement of your thermocouple is most likely the cause of your problems and not that the PID lost its way. Are you comparing the temp readout from the thermocouple against any other thermometer? If your probe is short it is most likely picking up heat from the cabinet wall.
I personally think the best place for the probe is centered in between the racks and not permanently attached. This way it will not be affected by the cabinet walls. I use the clip that came with my ET-73 to hold my probe. I like the flexiblity of being able to place it in different positions depending on what, or how much I'm cooking.
No offense, bugboat but if you're happy with a 10 degree swing then you don't need a PID. It should control much better than that.
Bubbagump
So the #1 algorithm helped out quite a bit. I still see a few degree swing over the corse of an hour, but much better than what I was getting with 0. I'm going to do some baby backs today and a shoulder tonight so I'll see how it perfroms with meat in the smoker.
Thanks for the help!
Rick
Took me a while, but I finally wired and built my LOVE TS. In the project box I got a 6 ft appliance cord, wired to a set of switch and the TS. The switch enabled me to enable a single outlet plug. The LOVE TS is direct wired to the feed to turn on. The out feed is then sent to another switch which then leads to a 2nd outlet plug.
what this does is allows me to turn on or off the TS operation. Why, I don't know yet. Maybe for those times that I want the probe to give me a reading and not operate the cabinet.
the extra selectable plug is for allowing me to easily turn off the puck feed and extra heat. I did buy a simple single pole switch that I will eventually set for a puck advance switch.
I love the switch. I don't need to keep an eye on it. And the temp swing is just fine.
The interesting find I did find, if the TS probe (more accurate) is a 10 to 12 degree difference to the simple Maverick / Polder probe and meter. Could explain my long cook issues in the past. We will see.
Thanks for all the help, this is great...
wood...
my 73 box probe and 73 meat probe ar 2 deg apart...
my 73 box probe and love ts probe are 4 deg apart when temp is steady...
when temp is going up fast or going down fast they are as much as 12 deg apart...
i guess its because they react differently to rise and fall...
the love ts aint as cool as the pids talked about here however it has done its job in the 6 smokes i have done in the last 3 weeks...
you gotta eat...
owrstrich
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by IKnowWood</i>
<br />The interesting find I did find, if the TS probe (more accurate) is a 10 to 12 degree difference to the simple Maverick / Polder probe and meter.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
IKW - The TS probe and Maverick ET-73 are both thermistor type probes. I believe Owrstrich is on the right track when he says it's the reaction time. But the difference in reaction time is not necessarily in the probes. It's more likely the devices using them (TS & ET-73). Don't be concerned if there is a big temp difference during rapid temp changes. It's more important that the probes read a more stable temp accurately.
The best way to check their accuracy is to get a small pot of water boiling and place the tip of each probe in the water making sure the probes are not touching the bottom or the sides of the pot. DO NOT fully immerse the probes in the water. Watch how fast the temp rises on both units and at what temp both of them top out at. Since the boiling point of water is dependent on altitude and pressure you can use this link to check what the boiling point should be for your area.
http://www.biggreenegg.com/boilingPoint.htm
When I tested my probe. The ET-73 was within a degree of my thermocouple. But the ET-73 did take longer to reach its max. temp. When testing your probes, if you find the ET-73 is still way off then switch the probe to the other port (food). If you get the same reading then you probably have a bad probe. But after switching ports the temp changes and reads more like it should then you most likely have a bad port on the transmitter.
Hope this helps. [:)]
Bubbagump