For the last 2 days I've been making some sausages. Only 10 lbs in total and I don't know why it takes me so long but after getting it all finished last night I pull them from the fridge this morning and cut into them only to find that my first attempt at weiners produced a rubbery texture and the flavor was kind of bland. Tasted much better when I did a test fry. And the SS doesn't look right. It is a pale pink in the middle and the outer parts look more like cooked meat than a cured sausage. Not sure what happened here and am reluctant to eat it. Here are some pics of the misadventure.
First the meat all mixed up for the weiners (didn't get a shot of the SS).
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e302.jpg)
A test fry of the SS and it was very good. Ended up putting this patty between some lightly toasted rye bread with some mustard for lunch.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e299.jpg)
SS hanging after the stuff.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e301.jpg)
Everything stuffed and hanging for the dry.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e304.jpg)
Poaching the weiners after 1 1/2 hrs of smoke.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e306.jpg)
Weiners blooming while I wait for the SS to smoke a little longer (3 hrs total)
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e313.jpg)
Shot of weiner and SS.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e329.jpg)
Shot of SS on its own - hard to see the color I am talking about though.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e330.jpg)
Anyone got suggestions about the SS - Not sure if I should eat it or toss it. Don't really want to toss it but don't want to make anyone sick either.
I also put a picnic in the smoker last night and plan on some pulled pork today. Hopefully that turns out better than the sausage mess. :) Here is a pic of it before it went into the smoker.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e320.jpg)
It's sitting at 172 now and I decided to add some more smoke and put another tray of Pecan in the AMAZNPS (one row) and stuck that into the smoker.
This is a difficult one. Looking at the pictures I am going to guess that the summer sausage is a little short on cure. First the fried chunk should have a pink color and it does not. It looks more like just fresh fried sausage. If you did not have enough heat the colors would be switched you would be raw looking sausage would be in the middle and pink on the outside. I have seen this before when sausage is not finished to a proper core temperature. On the other hand if you were short on cure and water bathed the SS the moisture in the bath that entered the casing diluted the cure a little on the outer meat and caused it to not switch or cure properly. The other thing I see is the inside is a rather pale pink. The color should be more intense. I would suggest that you take a 1 inch chunk of the sausage and put it into a microwave for a few seconds and heat it up above cure temperature. I would be curious if it changes color. It might not if there is not enough cure. How does the sausage taste? I do see a slight smoke ring just under the casing.
this is the color difference that I am referring to.
(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad274/pikeman_95/A%20%20SAUSAGE%20WITH%20FRIENDS%20280%20POUNDS/100_7708-Copy2.jpg)
KC
Thanks Kirby.
I microwaved a chunk and it came out looking like cooked meat - zero pink color. So I am guessing there is not enough cure which I think would mean that I didn't put any cure in, since my printout (your spreadsheet says to use 6.24g of cure). If I put that amount in the 5.5 lb batch then I would not have this issue and the color would be right. So I think there is no cure.
I didn't taste it because I am concerned about the nasties that could be in it if there wasn't enough cure and this stuff was in my smoker for about 5 or 6 hours at temps between 120 and 150. If I cook this stuff now will it be safe to eat or is it unsalvageable?
I have never seen anything like this; with the discolor being almost a ring on the outer edge. I agree with most of what Kirby stated, but once the chemical action takes place between the nitrite and myoglobin during the curing process, later contact with water will not have an effect, so the color will set. I can't tell from the patty if it was cured properly unless you cut it open. Was the meat reddish on the inside.
Having said that, not knowing any other possible cause I would have to agree that you either used to little cure, or maybe your cure in no longer good. If the cure was expose to high heat, strong sunlight, and/or too much moisture during storage it can go bad.
Try testing the cure on a 1" thick pork chop, but mixing a small amount of the Basic Dry Cure, and apply to the pork chop at a rate of 1 tablespoon per pound. Cure for at least 8 hours, rinse and fry. If the center remains pinkish inside, you cure should be good.
3.5 oz pickling salt
1.5 oz sugar
.05 oz cure #1
EDITED:
Our post crossed pathes. You should still test your cure.
Hey JZ if your not going to taste it than ship it my way.............my half husky shepherd will make it disappear
I am guessing that you had some cure in it but not enough. You might have miss weighed it. I think that if there was no cure in it, the center would not have had any pink in it at all. As to say if it is safe to eat I think I will defer that question to Habs or Rick. I checked your cure amount that you intended to use and it is correct.
Habs
what I was thinking that if he did not approach curing temperature in the smoker and suffered some dilution in the water bath It might not have been as effective. This one has me a little stumped.
KC
By "curing process" do you mean the time that the cure and meat mixture sit in the fridge overnight or does the meat / cure mix have to reach a certain temperature before the process takes place. If the latter applies then maybe I took it out of the smoker too early.
As far as the cure being bad, I don't think that is the case since the weiners I made the same day with the same cure all came out bright pink. I also store the cure in the opaque resealable bag that it came in and store it in my beer fridge. Just to be sure I will test it as suggested.
If the meat had no cure and was only cooked to 155 would the beef still be grey or would it possibly still be pink (like med rare). That might explain the pink in the middle and brown on the outside where it was cooked more?
Quote from: pikeman_95 on November 25, 2012, 01:40:06 PM
I am guessing that you had some cure in it but not enough. You might have miss weighed it. I think that if there was no cure in it, the center would not have had any pink in it at all. As to say if it is safe to eat I think I will defer that question to Habs or Rick. I checked your cure amount that you intended to use and it is correct.
Habs
what I was thinking that if he did not approach curing temperature in the smoker and suffered some dilution in the water bath It might not have been as effective. This one has me a little stumped.
KC
I can't answer for sure if it is safe. If it were my sausage I would throw it out.
The chemical reaction between the myoglobin and nitrite; that chemical bond, I believe, is not soluble, so it will not dilute. So it should not matter whether the color was set in the smoker or during the poaching. I do not smoke, but only poach hot dogs they are cured with sodium nitrite, and never had anything like this occur.
Quote from: JZ on November 25, 2012, 01:54:01 PM
By "curing process" do you mean the time that the cure and meat mixture sit in the fridge overnight or does the meat / cure mix have to reach a certain temperature before the process takes place. If the latter applies then maybe I took it out of the smoker too early.
As far as the cure being bad, I don't think that is the case since the weiners I made the same day with the same cure all came out bright pink. I also store the cure in the opaque resealable bag that it came in and store it in my beer fridge. Just to be sure I will test it as suggested.
If the meat had no cure and was only cooked to 155 would the beef still be grey or would it possibly still be pink (like med rare). That might explain the pink in the middle and brown on the outside where it was cooked more?
You are looking at two chemical reactions. The curing action is when the nitrite has a chemical reaction with the myoglobin (I believe the chemical that is formed at this stage is nitric oxide, I'm having a memory fade at this point :) ). This takes place, in your case during the time it is in the refrigerator overnight. But generally with sausage, this take place very quickly, and by the time you are finishing stuffing the sausage should be cured. The second chemical reaction that take place, which I believe is at 140°F, is when the reddish color appears, if you don't bring the meat up to that temperature, the meat is cure but you won't notice the change in color.
What mix did you use? Or was it a recipe from a book.
I use Ascorbate when i make SS from scratch. Most pre mixes have acorbate in them already thus making SS safe to mix, stuff and smoke.
Ascorbates
A. Speed the curing reaction by faster color development
through more rapid reduction of nitrates and nitrites
to nitrous acid and ultimately nitric oxide that
combines with myoglobin (a muscle pigment) to fix
the cured color.
B . Reduce oxidation and subsequent off flavor and color.
Thanks Rick and all.
I used Kirby's recipe and this is my first time using it. It tasted great on the test fry and I will be using this again. Thanks again Kirby the recipe and the spreadsheet are excellent. :) The only thing I can think of is that I just forgot to put the cure in. :-[
I will throw this stuff out because I don't know if it is safe to eat. So Don don't expect to get this stuff in the mail for your dog. If I won't eat it I am surely not going to feed to my dog or yours. ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Oh come on he has ate worst that you can send to me.... they have a stomach better than ours. why don't you think you never see any of my fail project,s ;)
JZ
A simple thing to remember is, after the mixing. If the sausage does not stiffen and turn a more brown color then the original pink you have forgotten the cure.
Quote;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Oh come on he has ate worst that you can send to me.... they have a stomach better than ours. why don't you think you never see any of my fail project,s ;)
I don't know if they have better stomachs .......... my dog eats grass and pukes way more than I do. ::) If it was just a matter of not tasting good I would probably give it to the dog and I know he would really appreciate it. Maybe that is why they are mans best friend. :o
QuoteA simple thing to remember is, after the mixing. If the sausage does not stiffen and turn a more brown color then the original pink you have forgotten the cure.
Thanks Kirby that's a great tip. I thought I was getting smarter because I started crossing off each of the spices on the list as I added them to the mix. When I checked the mix sheet for the SS I noticed that the cure was circled (I did this to make sure I didn't forget it) but it was not crossed off. So with that in mind and the results of the SS it appears that I DID forget it and now need a better Idea or a cure for CRAFTs disease. ;D
Quote from: pikeman_95 on November 25, 2012, 12:08:28 PM
This is a difficult one. Looking at the pictures I am going to guess that the summer sausage is a little short on cure. First the fried chunk should have a pink color and it does not. It looks more like just fresh fried sausage. If you did not have enough heat the colors would be switched you would be raw looking sausage would be in the middle and pink on the outside. I have seen this before when sausage is not finished to a proper core temperature. On the other hand if you were short on cure and water bathed the SS the moisture in the bath that entered the casing diluted the cure a little on the outer meat and caused it to not switch or cure properly. The other thing I see is the inside is a rather pale pink. The color should be more intense. I would suggest that you take a 1 inch chunk of the sausage and put it into a microwave for a few seconds and heat it up above cure temperature. I would be curious if it changes color. It might not if there is not enough cure. How does the sausage taste? I do see a slight smoke ring just under the casing.
This was really bugging me. After going through some books and searching the internet Kirby's original answer may be the closest to finding the solution.
I'll try to keep this short, but just incase get the popcorn! :)
When you add sodium nitrite one of the chemicals it produces is nitric oxide. Some of the nitric oxide combines with the myoglobin (the protein that makes meat red) to form nitric oxide myoglobin. This makes the myoglobin more stable but it can still be susceptible to oxidation (browing). I was wrong in my first post, in that both of this compounds
are water soluble. The nitric oxide myoglobin becomes more stable after exposed to heat, and according to the Wedlyn Dowme site, the color sets (stabilizes) at temperatures is between 140°F - 161°F.
Since it is clearly a brown ring around that sausage at about the same depth. It is very possible that you either did not use enough cure, or if you did use enough cure, your cure is bad, and has been weaken by improper storage. Looking at Kirby's recipe, I don't think you couldn't have forgotten the cure, because your sausage is reddish towards the center. In either case, due to not enough nitrites not all of the myoglobin was stable enough. And as Kirby stated some may have broken down by water before the color set.
One other thing; it is not the cure that stiffens up the sausage, it is the salt. I mainly make fresh sausage, and it will stiffen. Another thing, just because your sausage is red, does not necessarily means it is protected. Nitrites can add color to your meat, but not be at ppm to provide protection. So it is alway important to measure twice to be sure.
Thanks Habs.
Kirby sent me a PM and suggested I check my scale and this may be the problem. I was having some issues weighing a small amount of spice and it could be that either my scale is not working right. I am going to check the scale and the cure as you suggested yesterday.
Gonna take the dog for a walk then come back and try a few things to see if I can find the culprit.
I think I found the issue. ;D I checked the scale and it is reading fairly consistently at 5.1 to 5.3 g per level tsp. I think that difference is just the way I scrape off the tsp. I read the package the cure is in and it states to use 3g of cure per Kg. So for the 5.5 lb batch I made (5.5lbs/2.2kg/lb)=2.5 Kg I should have used 2.5 x 3 = 7.5g of cure and I only used 6.2g.
Do you think that would be enough of a difference to cause the results I experienced? I hope so. At least then I will know where the problem lies and I can correct it.
That would also explain why the weiners I made the same day with the same cure appear to be properly cured. I checked my calculation notes for the weiner mix and see that I used 6.7g of cure for the 5lb batch. Based on the cure package recommendations I should have used 6.8g but I guess the missing 0.1 g didn't affect the outcome for the weiners.
Quote from: JZ on November 26, 2012, 08:57:26 AM
I think I found the issue. ;D I checked the scale and it is reading fairly consistently at 5.1 to 5.3 g per level tsp. I think that difference is just the way I scrape off the tsp. I read the package the cure is in and it states to use 3g of cure per Kg. So for the 5.5 lb batch I made (5.5lbs/2.2kg/lb)=2.5 Kg I should have used 2.5 x 3 = 7.5g of cure and I only used 6.2g.
Do you think that would be enough of a difference to cause the results I experienced? I hope so. At least then I will know where the problem lies and I can correct it.
That would also explain why the weiners I made the same day with the same cure appear to be properly cured. I checked my calculation notes for the weiner mix and see that I used 6.7g of cure for the 5lb batch. Based on the cure package recommendations I should have used 6.8g but I guess the missing 0.1 g didn't affect the outcome for the weiners.
Glad to see you are zeroing in on the problem. This is the first time I have every seen anything like this, so I couldn't answer whether or not that amount of difference in cure would produced those results. Though if I calculated correctly the amount you used is around 20% less; then what is recommended by the manufacturer.
I am convinced this is the issue, mainly because the weiners turned out fine, as far as the pink color goes (they were still rubbery and I haven't figured that out yet).
After my last post I checked the scale against another one I have that only reads to the nearest gram and both scales agreed on whatever I put on them within their respective accuracy limits. I also weighed some spice bags that stated the content weights and for 3 different bags I consistently got readings that were 5 to 6 grams over the stated content weights, which I attribute to the bag weight. Both scales again agreed on the weights. So I am now confident that the scales are accurate enough.
Next step was to check out the recipes in Charcuterie by Ruhlman who lists ingredients by both metric weight and imperial volumes. Here is a real surprise. Out of about 10 recipes that I checked the conversion he used for 1 tsp of cure to equivalent metric weight varied considerably anywhere from 3 to 7 grams. I attribute the 3 gram conversion to an error. The other conversions were from 5 to 7 grams, with 6 being the most common. I have learned something again and will use the manufacturers recommended weights from now on.
Thanks to all of you for helping me resolve this. Now I can go forward with more confidence, until the next screw up. ::)
OK I may have been too hasty on my last post. I just took the SS out of the fridge to toss it and the pink center is gone. The meat is all grey now, which suggests to me that I did not put any cure in it. :-[
So note to self: PUT CURE IN MEAT, PUT CURE IN MEAT, PUT CURE IN MEAT, PUT CURE IN MEAT. ;D
The standard for the use of Pink cure# 1 sodium Nitrite is 4 OZ./ 100 pounds of meat. This works out at 5.67 grams for 5 pounds of meat. This is what my recipe is based off. Like Habs said it you have poorly stored or old cure it might not work properly. I do not know why a manufacturer would require more unless of the product they provide is less concentrated. :o
Thanks for sticking this out with me Kirby. I realize that you have probably made 1000's of lbs of sausage and as such you must have this down pat. So I checked out the cure info on the Wedliny Domowe website and under their extensive cure section they confirm what you have said and they provide this table, which conforms to the USDA maximum amounts for cure #1 usage.
Comminuted Meat (Sausages) Cure #1 in ounces Cure #1 in grams Cure #1 in teaspoons
25 lbs. 1 28.35 5
5 lbs. 0.2 5.66 1
1 lb. 0.04 1.1 1/5
1 kg 0.08 2.5 1/2
The 5.66g of cure #1 for 5 lbs of meat is exactly what your recipe calls for.
I think this leads me to one of three conclusions for my problem. 1) I weighed the cure wrong (strongly doubt this) or 2) I left the cure out completely (most probable) or 3 ) my cure is no good or lost its strength. The cure is inexpensive so I will just get some more. That will eliminate this as a variable.
After checking the info on the Wedliny site I pulled my bag of "Prague Powder #1" out of the fridge to check some info. One thing I noted is that this stuff is not pink - just white, not that it likely matters. The ingredients are "salt, sodium nitrite (6.25%)." Double checked and it states "Usage: max 3g per kg product or 1/2 oz per 10-lb product." For some reason this supplier recommends a higher usage than the USDA (maybe its a Canadian thing? Who knows?). ???
Anyways I will now get new cure and use it in accordance with the USDA guidelines. This is definitely a learning process and eventually I will get better at this. At least this has given me a reason to get more informed and that should help me in the future. ;)
I like the idea of getting new cure. I think Habs could chime in on the percentage of sodium nitrite that is supposed to be in the cure. I just use the stuff. I do not make anywhere near the variety that guys like Rick and some others make we just make much larger batches. We have made over 500# batches several times and most of the times around 200 pounds. I think our last batch was 280. It takes so much work that we like to get all done at once. I have a group of friends that gets together for a sausage weekend once or twice a year. I am looking forward to retirement where I can play with different sausages and learn form some of the more experienced guys on the forum. I have been saving recipes that have been shared at least the ones that look good and have a proven track record.
KC
The percentage of sodium nitrite in Prague Powder #1 (6.25%) is consistent with the percentage in Cure #1. The pink coloring is a voluntary U.S. manufacturer's practice to prevent the home user from mistakenly using it as table salt.
Kirby;
I'm amaze by people like you who can make 200 - 500 pounds of sausage at a time. I have enough problems trying to get through a 10 pound batch.
QuoteI'm amaze by people like you who can make 200 - 500 pounds of sausage at a time. I have enough problems trying to get through a 10 pound batch.
I agree. It usually takes me 2 days to make a 10 lb batch. It seems to take forever to gather everything up then grind, weigh, figure spice weights (much nicer with Kirbys spreadsheet), measure spices then mix and clean up. That's day one. Day 2 - gather casings and stuffing materials, stuff, then dry, then into the smoker, then into the bath then, bloom and then another clean up.
I don't think doubling my 10 lb batch to 20 lbs would add much time to the process since most of the time is spent in preparation and clean up.
I recall reading a post by Mike (Mr Walleye) where him and a buddy (maybe more than one - can't remember) did like a 100 or 200 batch in
FOUR hrs, including cleanup. I would like to see that operation.
Quote from: JZ on November 26, 2012, 04:09:52 PM
OK I may have been too hasty on my last post. I just took the SS out of the fridge to toss it and the pink center is gone. The meat is all grey now, which suggests to me that I did not put any cure in it. :-[
So note to self: PUT CURE IN MEAT, PUT CURE IN MEAT, PUT CURE IN MEAT, PUT CURE IN MEAT. ;D
First thing I do is measure my water and then put the cure in and stir it up. This is just habit and I know that I will have cure in the batch. I have caught myself making fresh sausage and reaching for the cure and realize that I don't need cure. If I am grinding the spices in with a second grind my cure has been put in the water. Just sayin
Quote from: JZ on November 27, 2012, 09:03:55 AM
QuoteI'm amaze by people like you who can make 200 - 500 pounds of sausage at a time. I have enough problems trying to get through a 10 pound batch.
I agree. It usually takes me 2 days to make a 10 lb batch. It seems to take forever to gather everything up then grind, weigh, figure spice weights (much nicer with Kirbys spreadsheet), measure spices then mix and clean up. That's day one. Day 2 - gather casings and stuffing materials, stuff, then dry, then into the smoker, then into the bath then, bloom and then another clean up.
I don't think doubling my 10 lb batch to 20 lbs would add much time to the process since most of the time is spent in preparation and clean up.
I recall reading a post by Mike (Mr Walleye) where him and a buddy (maybe more than one - can't remember) did like a 100 or 200 batch in FOUR hrs, including cleanup. I would like to see that operation.
Mike has one of my 30 pound stuffers. Those things really crank out the sausage. When we really get going I break out this 70 pound stuffer.
(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad274/pikeman_95/large%20stuffer/Picture021.jpg)
I make more crap out of this plastic.
Kirby
Quote from: JZ on November 26, 2012, 03:03:51 PM
Next step was to check out the recipes in Charcuterie by Ruhlman who lists ingredients by both metric weight and imperial volumes. Here is a real surprise. Out of about 10 recipes that I checked the conversion he used for 1 tsp of cure to equivalent metric weight varied considerably anywhere from 3 to 7 grams. I attribute the 3 gram conversion to an error. The other conversions were from 5 to 7 grams, with 6 being the most common. I have learned something again and will use the manufacturers recommended weights from now on.
I ordered this book recently. Having had problems with my hot dogs I checked this book for a new recipe. On page 164-165 the recipe calls for "1 tsp/7grams pink salt" for a 2.5 lb recipe !! That looks to me like it is
TWICE the amount of pink salt needed. Seemed odd so I turned the page and looked at the next recipe (Hungarian Paprika Sausage) and it called for "1 tsp/3 grams pink salt" for a 4.5 lb recipe. The 1 tsp looks okay to me but if I was going by grams I think I might have gotten sick as that appears to me to be
only half of what is needed !!
Am I wrong (although I'm a newbie I don't think I'm that new) or are these recipes simply dangerous for a newbie to use as written ???? I'm afraid to use ANY of the recipes in this book now. If the "critical" pink salt quantities are wrong what does this say of the reliability of the other ingredients listed? I did not receive an errata sheet with the book and could not find one from a Google search. How realiable is this book? Is there anywhere that I can get an errata sheet for this book?
(sorry if I hijacked this post)
Thanks,
Roger
Kirby,
That is one big bad boy you got there and I bet it devours the sausage. I watched one of your stuffer videos before and those things work great. Nice invention.
Old Frenchie,
I was very surprised to see the vast differences in the Charcuterie recipes with respect to the most important ingredient ........ the CURE. :o I agree this is bad and could cause someone some very serious illness or worse. This book has been in circulation for some time and this should have been corrected or at the very least an errata included with the book. So much for EXPERTS and their publishing team. :P
I just got that book a couple of weeks ago, had not noticed the discrepancies, just got my order of cure from the US end of last week. Guess I have to make a few pen and ink revisions eh? Thanks for the heads up. Last thing I need is to make somebody sick on my newfound hobby.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Old Frenchie;
What is the copy right date, and the edition of your book?
I'm looking at my copy of the book and for the hot dog recipe that is for 2 lbs, the recipe says 1/2 teaspoon (3 gram) of pink salt; which is accurate. He is wrong with his weight conversion for Hungarian Paprika Sausage. The weight for the Hungarian Paprika Sausage should be 5.66 grams or 6 grams.
I knew a few of his recipes were a little liberal in his conversions, but for the Hungarian Paprika Sausage he is just plain wrong.
I just checked my copy and on pg 164 - 165 the hot dog ingredients for a 2.5 lb batch call for 1tsp/7g pink salt. This is apparently a first edition and the copyright date is 2005.
I only purchased this book a few months ago and as such would have thought that I would get the latest edition. Is there a later one?
He makes all kinds of mistakes in his books. Thats why he is a chef and not a sausage maker who shouldn't be writing books.
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/138708-list-of-errors-in-charcuterie-by-m-ruhlman/
Quote from: JZ on November 28, 2012, 09:31:26 AM
I just checked my copy and on pg 164 - 165 the hot dog ingredients for a 2.5 lb batch call for 1tsp/7g pink salt. This is apparently a first edition and the copyright date is 2005.
I only purchased this book a few months ago and as such would have thought that I would get the latest edition. Is there a later one?
Mine is copyrighted 2005, First Edition; and for the hot dogs it calls for 2 lb. 1/2 tsp/3g pink salt. So there must have been a revision at some point, and it looks like for the worst.
Devo;
Thanks for the link. I believed you posted it sometime ago and I misplaced it. You would think Ruhlman is a chef, but his profession is a food writer. While doing research at the Culinary Institute of American, he developed a passion for Charcuterie.
QuoteMine is copyrighted 2005, First Edition; and for the hot dogs it calls for 2 lb. 1/2 tsp/3g pink salt. So there must have been a revision at some point, and it looks like for the worst.
So there are 2 first editions with 2005 copyright dates that are different. :o What's up with that?
Hey Don I checked out the link you provided and one thing I noted was that "Marlene" who seemed to be involved in the publishing part of the book noted that during the proofing they received drafts, made corrections on the drafts then the next draft they received still did not have the corrections made. I can relate to this as our office used to have a CAD operator that would do similar things. Give him corrections and they were made (sometimes) then give him some more changes and the next draft you get back had the original errors but the latest corrections made. He somehow kept mixing up computer files. Almost impossible to deal with. He got fired.
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on November 28, 2012, 02:05:36 AM
Old Frenchie;
What is the copy right date, and the edition of your book?
I'm looking at my copy of the book and for the hot dog recipe that is for 2 lbs, the recipe says 1/2 teaspoon (3 gram) of pink salt; which is accurate. He is wrong with his weight conversion for Hungarian Paprika Sausage. The weight for the Hungarian Paprika Sausage should be 5.66 grams or 6 grams.
I knew a few of his recipes were a little liberal in his conversions, but for the Hungarian Paprika Sausage he is just plain wrong.
Hab --- Mine is the same as JZ ... Copyrighted 2005 ... and the hot dog recipe is for 2.5 lbs. I just bought this book from Amazon
Devo --- Thanks for the link ... I bought this book based on a high recommendation from someone on another forum ... wish I had seen the link you posted first ... I would have bought something else. Without a reliable errata sheet I'm thinking the only way to use his recipes would be to post them on a forum like this first and ask for feedback from experienced folks that have tried the recipe with success.
Thanks everyone ... glad to know I'm not going insane ;D
Let's be very careful with this conversation. I read the entire link that has been posted and for the most part it was folks debating the merits of the book and preserved lemons. Granted, apparently the book has a couple of errors in it. It is still a great reference book and I have seen lots of folks much more experienced than me on this forum swearing by and quoting from the book. Who am I to argue with them?
Bradley Smoker sells this book. That's good enought for me.
Hey Larry, I don't think this discussion is something to be concerned about. ;) In fact I think it is something that members should be aware of. I didn't read all of the link that Don posted but enough to see the comment that Marlene made (which I commented on above). That led me to believe there was an author / publisher communication issue. I agree that most of the comments were more of complaints about the taste of a particular sausage but that is not an error, just a taste preference and not a health issue.
However when there are errors relating to the amount of cure used (1/2 or double the USDA recommended amounts) in a recipe, that is a health issue and I think our members should be aware of them, especially since the author and / or publisher have not seen fit to make book purchasers aware of these errors. I for one am glad this has been pointed out by our members and I have made notes in my copy of the book to make sure I do not use the wrong amounts of cure, if I use those recipes.
There are a lot of us newbie sausage makers on this forum and we rely on these books and follow their recipes to the letter, because we are newbies. So I think it is very important for us to be aware of these errors, so we can make the appropriate corrections and avoid potential risk to the health of our families.
I agree with you JZ. If there are errors they should be pointed out, especially where there may be safety concerns so that others may be aware of them. Although I still believe it is a good book, especially for those that never would have delved into Charcuterie. Almost all of the errors are with the recipe amounts (especially sodium nitrite), and they appear to be typos, that should have been caught prior to publication. The rest of the information in the book, seem fundamentally sound.
On the other forum, some of the most critical statements are from jmolinari who has This Blog (http://curedmeats.blogspot.com/). He appears to be a little bias, but does make some strong points. The way I read the thread, it has a few comments about the merits of Bread and Butter pickles or Lemon Confit etc, but a great deal of the conversations had concerns on food safety and the use of nitrites/nitrates.
On the second page FoodMan sums up the errors reported, and you will notice none of the errors in this thread are listed on the other forum. I haven't used any of the recipes that have errors listed, but before I use any of the recipes in this book, I'm going to double check the math. As stated on the other forum most of the recipes are Brian Polcyn, who developed these recipes for his restaurant. Probably when the recipes were scaled down, the errors occurred, but like I said earlier, that should have been caught.
I have been following this with great interest, as I just purchased this book from Amazon last month. Are we going to create a list of errors for us newbies to make corrections from?, then maybe place it as a sticky at the start of one of the forums? I read the thread on the other site, I just did the lemon confit last week, no liquid in the glass container, did use almost double the salt for less lemon though. There was confusion on that site to me trying to compare the lemon confit to "preserved lemons", not the same thing in my mind. My copy is also dated 2005, but not sure if it might be a later reprint
Grizz
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Habs, I went to the blog and couldn't find the thread you were referring to, or the "Foodman" error list. I must be blind. :)
So what is this "Other Forum"?
Quote from: JZ on November 29, 2012, 09:02:53 AM
Habs, I went to the blog and couldn't find the thread you were referring to, or the "Foodman" error list. I must be blind. :)
The information is not on jmolinari blog, I just included his blog to indicate his credentials. Its on the Egullet Forum
Tenpoint5;
The other forum is the link Devo posted:
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/138708-list-of-errors-in-charcuterie-by-m-ruhlman/
QuoteQuote from: JZ on Today at 09:02:53 am
Habs, I went to the blog and couldn't find the thread you were referring to, or the "Foodman" error list. I must be blind. :)
The information is not on jmolinari blog, I just included his blog to indicate his credentials. Its on the Egullet Forum
Tenpoint5;
The other forum is the link Devo posted:
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/138708-list-of-errors-in-charcuterie-by-m-ruhlman/
Thanks.... it all makes sense now. ;)
My point to saying be careful with this conversation is in the weblink that is now the topic of this conversation, it is disclosed that a lot of the recipes are not Ruhlman's recipes at all. They are Polcyn's. To point the finger solely at Ruhlman is simply wrong. I've seen personal recipes posted on this forum that were blatantly wrong and never corrected. Thanks to the internet those recipes are as likely to wind up in the same number of hands as the recipes in Polcyn's and Ruhlman's book.
What other forum?
I personally don't care who's recipe it is and really don't care where the fault lies. I am only concerned with the fact that there are errors that could compromise someones health and people that use those recipes should be aware of that.
This book has been in circulation for 7 years now and it appears there are lots of knowledgeable people aware of these HEALTH related errors. Yet nothing has been done to notify the owners or purchasers of this book about this issue and provide them with the corrections needed to continue with this new hobby safely. For newbies, like me that buy this book, we are not aware of these issues and there is no way we would find out unless we were involved in forums like this one. I am sure there are lots of people that buy this book and do not participate in forums like this and would never know they could be putting their families at risk with some of the recipes therein. I like this book and have nothing against Ruhlman, Polcyn or the publisher. But how difficult is it to include a piece of paper in the book that identifies the HEALTH related errors and the associated corrections.
I read the comments on the other link and there is a lot of bickering. But at the end of the day no one seems to address the REAL issue which is.
Where are the health related errors in the book and what are the corrections. Forget the finger pointing. It's not important.
This seems to be turning into what I see on a lot of other forums. Bickering and finger pointing. #1 if you do not know the basic amount of cure to use per pound of meat you shouldn't be making sausage, jerky,etc. #2 if you have a serious health concern PM one of our forum moderators. If they can't answer your question it's time to go back to microwaves and vending machines.
I guess it is a matter of perspective. Most of the replies about this subject I do not consider bickering or finger pointing, but a discussion. On this board, the topic has mainly been about the incorrect amounts of sodium nitrite and/or salt levels in some recipes in a book.
Where does one learn the basic amount of cure to use per pound of meat? Most beginners rely on books published by knowledgeable people in the field to obtain the correct information. Or even if the person is knowledgeable about the volume measure i.e. teaspoon, tablespoon etc, he may not be that knowledgeable about the metric weight conversion. If the metric conversion is wrong, a person can unknownly use the wrong amount.
If I were aware of any recipe that is blatantly wrong that may be a safety issue, I first PM the poster. If that person didn't change his post I go ahead and make a public post.
Well we can fix that.
We all gotta play nice
QuoteI guess it is a matter of perspective. Most of the replies about this subject I do not consider bickering or finger pointing, but a discussion. On this board, the topic has mainly been about the incorrect amounts of sodium nitrite and/or salt levels in some recipes in a book.
Where does one learn the basic amount of cure to use per pound of meat? Most beginners rely on books published by knowledgeable people in the field to obtain the correct information. Or even if the person is knowledgeable about the volume measure i.e. teaspoon, tablespoon etc, he may not be that knowledgeable about the metric weight conversion. If the metric conversion is wrong, a person can unknownly use the wrong amount.
If I were aware of any recipe that is blatantly wrong that may be a safety issue, I first PM the poster. If that person didn't change his post I go ahead and make a public post.
Well said Habs.
At the end of the day what I would like to see is a list of corrections . I am going to go through my copy and make corrections that I see are obvious to me. The basics I will look for are 5lbs of meat gets 1tsp of cure which equals 5.6 g (say 6 g). Since I haven't started dry cure and may not I will leave those recipes unless someone tells me the same rule applies then I will use the same principle and make corrections to those.
I think I will also post my finds if that is ok with the Moderators. That way if someone spots an error I have made it can be corrected and if someone is aware of one I missed then it could be added to the list.
If it can't be done on this site, I can easily get something up on the recipe site, I just have to figure out the best area. The only issue is that there seems to be more then one printing of the book. You can PM me the errors that are in the book, but also look to see if there is a revision number, or if yours say Second Edition, because at least one error mentioned by you is not an error in my copy.
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on November 30, 2012, 12:51:43 PM
If it can't be done on this site, I can easily get something up on the recipe site, I just have to figure out the best area. The only issue is that there seems to be more then one printing of the book. You can PM me the errors that are in the book, but also look to see if there is a revision number, or if yours say Second Edition, because at least one error mentioned by you is not an error in my copy.
I don't think that anyone would have a problem with a thread designed to keep people safe. I also agree a statement as to which printing and which edition the error was noted in, has to be mentioned when posting an error.
Habs I sent you a PM.
From what I can tell the book I have (recent purchase) states it is a first edition and published in 2005. I will email you a PDF file of the copyright page. If there are 2 different versions of the same edition it might be a little more challenging try to make a comprehensive list.
This subject has been brought up on several sites. Michael Ruhlman is not a expert of charcuterie, he is a expert of the culinary scene. Brian Polcyn who helped Ruhlman write the book definitely knows his stuff and he has the credentials to back it up. I do find their books short on technical detail and you really need to know something about how they go about producing the product or you will be lost. Here is something that makes me question their methods.
F-LC is a mixed culture containing Pediococcus acidilactici, Lactobacillus curvatus and Staphylococcus xylosus. A 25-gram packet of Bactoferm™ F-LC will treat 220 pounds (100 kilo) of meat. You can use the whole packet in 100 pounds of meat or use half of the packet and refreeze remaining culture. Now authors Polcyn and Ruhlman of "Charcuterie" would have us use ¼ of a packet in any production under 50 pounds of meat. On the other hand, recipes by Stan Marianski contain 1.25 grams (1/2 tspn.) of F-LC culture per 11 lbs. of sausage.
The recommendation is not from the manufacturer Chr. Hansen, but rather from Polcyn and Ruhlman - the authors of "Charcuterie". The suggestion is printed in the second paragraph under Lactic Acid And Live Cultures on page 179 of the book "Charcuterie". The author says, "small batches must contain at least a quarter of the package to ensure that enough of the live culture gets into the sausage".
Me? I'm sticking with Stan Marianski and I'm following the recipes he has published. I'm sure if it was meant that we use a quarter package (F-LC ), Chr. Hansen would specifically write it on the package.
Simple things he leaves out like, Home Cured Pancetta!
By MICHAEL RUHLMAN | Published: JUNE 8, 2009
http://ruhlman.com/2009/06/home-cured-pancetta/
Fails to identify the type of cure he uses (#1 or #2). Of course we know it is #1, but amateur readers don't know that.
Quote from: JZ on November 28, 2012, 09:31:26 AM
I just checked my copy and on pg 164 - 165 the hot dog ingredients for a 2.5 lb batch call for 1tsp/7g pink salt. This is apparently a first edition and the copyright date is 2005.
I have that very same book. Ordered from Amazon when I first got into smoking.
2005 First Edition.
2.5 lb batch calls for 1tsp/7g pink salt.
Chris, is there anything on the copyright page that would indicate a printing?
Quote from: squirtthecat on November 30, 2012, 05:24:46 PM
Quote from: JZ on November 28, 2012, 09:31:26 AM
I just checked my copy and on pg 164 - 165 the hot dog ingredients for a 2.5 lb batch call for 1tsp/7g pink salt. This is apparently a first edition and the copyright date is 2005.
I have that very same book. Ordered from Amazon when I first got into smoking.
2005 First Edition.
2.5 lb batch calls for 1tsp/7g pink salt.
Chris, is there anything on the copyright page that would indicate a printing?
There should be a row of numbers that will tell the printing the printer and the year it will look something like this.
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 QGD 10 11 12 13 14 15
Which would be the 3rd printing in 2010 by Quad Graphics Dubuque.
Devo;
Thanks for the additional information. To be fair to Ruhlman, he did spend almost a year at the Culinary Institute of America learning charcuterie while doing research there.
As for the additional starter culture he uses, I will add that to the list. But that is one of the things he does explain on his blog. His argument on that is that the starter culture is mostly filler, and there is very little bacteria culture in the package. His reasoning is to adding the extra culture is to insure you have enough. He makes a good point, in that if you use the proper amount of dextrose, the dextrose will be all consumed, and the bacteria will no longer grow, and produce lactic acid. Therefore the extra bacteria will not alter the taste of the final product. Since the dormancy of bacteria has a self life of a year or less when stored in the freezer, and I don't use much per year, there is not additional cost to me.
Other then the Library of Congress number. The other numbers I see on my pages are:
TX609 R84 2005
641.6'1-dc22
JZ;
I got your PM, and replied.
I couldn't figure out a way to upload a PDF file to the forum so here is a pic of the copyright page in my book.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/JZ-bucket/e339.jpg)
For some reason the pic will not show up as the rotated copy I made in photobucket but the information is still here, just a little harder to read.
I see what you mean, there is not way to attach a file if you click on the icon. I did get your email you sent with the attached file.
My copyright book is the same, except the bottom row of numbers.
Yours are:
15 16 17 18 19 20
Mine are:
4 5 6 7 8 9 0
And mine..
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kKJ64O9TAIY/ULtlvBErm2I/AAAAAAABm1Y/Io5ky5Ykq24/s800/2012-12-02%252008.28.38.jpg)
Does you copy also state it is a First Edition? I also note that your ISBN numbers are different than mine and you have 2 listed where I only have one.
This suggests there are 3 versions of the "First Edition", maybe more? I think I will send an email to the publisher in New York to see if they will tell me how to identify the First Edition, how many revisions there have been and how to identify the subsequent editions and their sequence.
Couldn't find an email address on their website so I sent a fax request for the above info.
Quote from: JZ on December 02, 2012, 09:24:04 AM
Does you copy also state it is a First Edition? I also note that your ISBN numbers are different than mine and you have 2 listed where I only have one.
Yep. "First Edition"
This is my personal suggestion and not that of a member of the Moderation Team. If you are going to go through with posting a "corrections" thread may I suggest you do it over on the recipe website that is owned by Oldman where Habs is the Admin. When the need arises you can refer folks to that website for the correction thread.
On page 76 of the book is an artist rendering of the Bradley Smoker and the authors endorsing it. I don't think it will look very good for a Bradley owned website to have corrections to the book on the website, particularly when the book can be purchased from Bradley. I'm still not convinced that there is not a potential for liability either.
It is also fair and right for me to tell you that the Moderation team is discussing this with Brian at the Bradley Home Office. No position has been reached as of yet.
Thanks for your consideration.
Fair enough. :)
I have done my review and forwarded questions / comments to Habs.
I will not post any details here regarding this issue without the moderators consent.
KyNola;
As you can see from one of my previous post, I have no intentions of posting in on this site. And yes I am now working on placing it on the Recipe Site.
Thanks for your input.
You're welcome. I must have missed your post where you said you had no intention of posting the correction thread on the forum. Given that to be the case I had no reason to have any input and I'll be more than happy to delete my comments if you think it warranted.
Looking at the info you all have a first edition but
JZ has a 15th printing
Habs has a 4th
I have a 7th
And Squirt has a 10th
Well that sure changes things.
After your comments I did some surfing and found that "First Edition" means different things to different people.To Collectors it means the first printing of a book and to a Publisher it can include subsequent printings as long as there are not substantial additions, deletions or alterations to the contents.
Habs has already informed me that his copy does not include a recipe that is in mine and some of the ingredients in his copy are different than mine, for the same recipe. It seems this whole exercise may be futile, if there are at least 15 printings and they all could be different.
That would explain why it hasn't been done before.
Awrighten!
Let's end this and move on.
(http://shirahvollmermd.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/case-closed-stamp.gif)
Quote from: Tenpoint5 on December 03, 2012, 03:52:42 PM
Looking at the info you all have a first edition but
JZ has a 15th printing
Habs has a 4th
I have a 7th
And Squirt has a 10th
I'm just curious. How can you tell the different printing.
KyNola;
Take a look it is there. I don't see a reason for you to delete the last post you made.
Hans the. row of numbers on the bottom of the page is called the the print code. The first number is the current printing. I got wrote up one time for not catching a wrong print code. So that's the first thing I look at in a book
Quote from: Tenpoint5 on December 04, 2012, 06:31:04 AM
Hans the. row of numbers on the bottom of the page is called the the print code. The first number is the current printing. I got wrote up one time for not catching a wrong print code. So that's the first thing I look at in a book
You best be 100% sure
(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab242/nepas1/icons/police2.gif)
Quote from: Tenpoint5 on December 04, 2012, 06:31:04 AM
Hans the. row of numbers on the bottom of the page is called the the print code. The first number is the current printing. I got wrote up one time for not catching a wrong print code. So that's the first thing I look at in a book
That's interesting. Thanks for the explaination.
Hab's here is something else you might want to add to your list.
Michael Ruhlman book "Salumi"
(http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedish/files/2012/08/MICHAEL-RUHLMAN-BOOK-SALUMI.jpg)
Writing about guanciale (on p. 88), they say "You can use sodium nitrite here if you wish, for a more bacony, pancetta-like flavor, using 0.25% of the weight of the meat . . . about 1/4 ounce for 5 pounds, or 6 grams for 2 kilograms of meat." This error is repeated on p. 68, in their introduction to dry-curing, where they say, "We believe . . . 0.25% sodium nitrate relative to the weight of the meat to be ideal."
If you follow this advice and add 0.25% sodium nitrate or nitrite relative to the weight of the meat, you will be adding 16 TIMES MORE THAN THE USDA ALLOWS AND APPROACHING LEVELS THAT ARE TOXIC. (As the authors note on p 63, 7.1 grams is the toxicity level for a person weighing 100 kilos.) Anyone familiar with the curing salts readily available in the States will understand that they are referring instead to pre-mixed cures, cure #2 (which contains 5.67% sodium nitrite and 3.63% sodium nitrate) and cure #1 (which contains 6.25% sodium nitrite or 1/16 exactly) respectively. But for a novice who takes them at their word and makes nitrates/nitrites 0.25% of the mix, this could be a fatal mistake.
Thanks for the information. But for now I just want to concentrate on the errors in Charcuterie. I feel that is important, because it is an entry level book for a great deal of people. Most beginners will be referring to that book; possible for the first time they have made sausage or cured any meats.
It seems that he is giving the amount to use for cure #1 or pink salt. If he is referring to pure sodium nitrite, then those measurement are toxic. If I had the book I would post a comment on his blog.