Olds did a good job cleaning up this post. I appreciate all of his hard work. Please visit his site listed below.
rob
My Custom PID Controller (http://susan.rminor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315)
rob,
I personally want to thank you for taking your time and doing this, and the folks that came before you who have made this possible. I would like to add this information to our Bradley Accessories on the recipe site. However, I would like the image you have posted here in a larger format. For old eyes like mine it is hard to read even with my glasses.... :o
What I will do is use this current image as a click to enlarge to a full screen image. Send your larger image first to
[email protected] if it gets kicked back because it is to large then send it to
[email protected] Also will you send a pix of your finished item. Plus I would like to give credit to all the members who over this past year or so who made this possible. Please include the author(s) of any postings that helped you.
Again thanks to you and all before you for this information.
Olds
I will upload more pictures later today of the finished product, etc.
rob
This is great! Thanks robs.
Thank you,
Man, does this get a gadget guy's juices flowing. Were it not 10p on Sunday night, I do believe I would be hard at it trying to get mine going.
Rob, thanks for the hard work. No one these days has extra time and I appreciate the effort.
mark
Quote from: winemakers on August 20, 2006, 06:46:47 PM
Thank you,
Man, does this get a gadget guy's juices flowing. Were it not 10p on Sunday night, I do believe I would be hard at it trying to get mine going.
Rob, thanks for the hard work. No one these days has extra time and I appreciate the effort.
mark
Hey Mark, I'm glad you like it. Yeah, it was kind of hard working on it this weekend since it's the last weekend before the kids start school.
Good luck with yours. Don't hesitate to ask questions, although my hope is that we've made it easy enough so that people won't need help.
rob
Thanks Robs for your great input into the PID. I have had one for about a year and it is a joy to have. I just recently did a 26 hour smoke of pork butt. I started it at 4:30 PM and because of the PID I slept through the night. I did not have to adjust anything.
Here is my solution to heat build up from the SSR. I have a heat sink that is mounted on the outside of the box.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/car54/pid2L.png)
Again, Thanks for your work.
Brad
Here are 2 options for SSR cooling. Both seem to work. The heat sink took me about 6 hrs. on my drill/mill/lathe, probably twice as long as it took to put the whole box together :) :)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid2.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/xlb/pid1.jpg)
Robs; I just wanted to say thank you very much for all the hard work you've put into this project. For that matter I would like to thank everyone for the input and information supplied here.
I noticed you used a 25 amp SSR. I'm running dual 1500 watt elements in my smokers. Do they make a 40 amp SSR?
All you folks have certainly given me the desire to tackle this project.
Again, THANK YOU.
Regards; Patrick :) :) :)
BTW TomG Very nice job on the heat sink!!! ;)
Ice, 40A SSRs are readily available http://www.crydom.com/products/productFamilyList.aspx?idProductLine=3
As I'm sure you know, the 1500 watts at 115vac will only draw about 15 amps. The downside to the higher amp SSR is cost, the upside, I think, is that at any given load, the higher cap SSR will stay cooler.
Robs, sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread. Nice work on the project.
Funny,
rob and I are working together on the recipe site and one of the issue we are talking about is a heat sink. I suggested a computer heat sink. I see I will have to add TomG newest image to the ones of his we are already using.
I would add the image of Brad's but I cannot see the sink. Brad if you would like your image used please take a clearer picture and E-mail it to me.
If you all want to take a peek this is the addy: http://susan.rminor.com/forums/showthread.php?p=504#post504 I'm not yet done with the coding and some re-wording. At the moment it is a hidden thread so you can only access it via the link. Also, until I'm finished it is an open posting board and comments may be posted. Once we are finished all comments etc. (other postings) will be deleted.
QuoteRobs, sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread. Nice work on the project.
TomG you did not jack the thread... ;D
Just remember at this point we are not done with stuff, so some of that thread still looks like this one.
Olds
I'm glad that this thread is alive.
Me and Raye talked about just using the bottom of the box as a heatsink (it's aluminum) and mounting rubber feet in the corners. I debated doing this, and after talking to a few people decided that the heat may not dicipate enough because the SSR would be
mounted on the bottom.
I took an old heatsink off of a video card and mounted it on the SSR. I cut a hole in the back of the box just big enough for the heatsink to squeeze through. I mixed 2 parts JB Weld with one part Arctic Alumina Thermal Compound for my adhesive. There wasn't room for drilling holes to attach the SSR and the heatsink didn't have any type of mounting bracket, so I just made sure to make it a tight fit.
Pictures posted. I will post instructions for mounting the heatsink soon.
rob
FYI, heat sinks for the puck type SSRs are also commercially available, but a little pricey and bulky.
https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.asp?SearchQuery=HS%2D2%20CRYDOM&SearchType=STANDARD&submit=search+again
If I had 12 months to spare, I'd be happy to make them for anyone who wanted one. :D :D
Quote from: TomG on August 21, 2006, 07:11:21 PM
FYI, heat sinks for the puck type SSRs are also commercially available, but a little pricey and bulky.
https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.asp?SearchQuery=HS%2D2%20CRYDOM&SearchType=STANDARD&submit=search+again
If I had 12 months to spare, I'd be happy to make them for anyone who wanted one. :D :D
Yeah, I'll take 2.
What do you think about the size of the one that I mounted? Do you think it's too small? I'm not sure...
Nice job. Let it run for a couple of hours and you'll probably find that it's barely warmer than ambient. Were you having heat problems with the SSR mounted inside the box?
Quote from: TomG on August 21, 2006, 07:29:41 PM
Nice job. Let it run for a couple of hours and you'll probably find that it's barely warmer than ambient. Were you having heat problems with the SSR mounted inside the box?
No heat problems before the heatsink. I added it because I got a few emails regarding it and also Auber Instruments recommends one.
I don't know if it needs to be on there. I put it on to be safe.
Thanks!
rob
Quote from: iceman on August 21, 2006, 04:15:14 PM
Robs; I just wanted to say thank you very much for all the hard work you've put into this project. For that matter I would like to thank everyone for the input and information supplied here.
I noticed you used a 25 amp SSR. I'm running dual 1500 watt elements in my smokers. Do they make a 40 amp SSR?
All you folks have certainly given me the desire to tackle this project.
Again, THANK YOU.
Regards; Patrick :) :) :)
BTW TomG Very nice job on the heat sink!!! ;)
Iceman,
Auber Instruments sells a 45a and a 50a.
http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2&zenid=215411ad7761e233301fadbb4b25749a
QuoteThanks to begolf25 for answering my questions and all of his help. I couldn't have
done this without his help.
I was glad to help Robs. But I just wanted to say that this PID design came from TomG and he deserves the credit. I just passed all of the help and information he shared with me onto Robs. That is what is great about this forum, there is never a shortage of help from its members.
I also don't want to take credit for work that isn't mine. The pictures of the PID on the recipe site thread labeled as mine are TomG's, not mine.
Quote from: begolf25 on August 22, 2006, 04:19:48 AM
QuoteThanks to begolf25 for answering my questions and all of his help. I couldn't have
done this without his help.
I was glad to help Robs. But I just wanted to say that this PID design came from TomG and he deserves the credit. I just passed all of the help and information he shared with me onto Robs. That is what is great about this forum, there is never a shortage of help from its members.
I also don't want to take credit for work that isn't mine. The pictures of the PID on the recipe site thread labeled as mine are TomG's, not mine.
No problem I will add credit and re-lable the images.
Come on guys, you're making me blush. This was a joint effort and a fun project, and without Bubbagump's thoughtful, patient input it would have never gotten off the ground. Thanks to Robs, Olds, and Beogolf the info is now in a simple, easy to locate and understand format.
You guys sure make a great team!!! ;D Thanks!!! ;)
Quoteand without Bubbagump's thoughtful, patient input it would have never gotten off the ground.
You know I wonder about him... it is like I either do not see his postings or he has moved on... if he has moved on then we have lost one great library. That would be a one real cotton pickin' shame too.
Quote from: Oldman on August 22, 2006, 10:22:00 AM
Quoteand without Bubbagump's thoughtful, patient input it would have never gotten off the ground.
You know I wonder about him... it is like I either do not see his postings or he has moved on... if he has moved on then we have lost one great library. That would be a one real cotton pickin' shame too.
Thanks Olds, I'm still around from time to time. Been running six different directions lately.
Rob - Great work!! It's nice to see everything condensed to one thread with links to the originals for reference. The time you put into this will pay dividends for others looking to go the PID route. :) :)
Bubbagump
Quote from: bubbagump on August 22, 2006, 11:51:11 AM
Rob - Great work!! It's nice to see everything condensed to one thread with links to the originals for reference. The time you put into this will pay dividends for others looking to go the PID route. :) :)
Bubbagump
Thanks. The real test will be someone creating a temp control box based on this (I've done it over and over to make sure), and them posting results, sugestions, etc.
I really just want to make it as easy as possible, as I wanted to do it myself for along time, but didn't have the guts until befolf25 said to go for it.
rob
I am not interested in building a PID, but I need to say good job Rob and Bubbagump. These instructions will be helpful to many.
Rule of thumb for cooling electronics: if you cannot keep your thumb on it, it is too hot and needs to be cooled.
If you want to do some math and size the heat sink correctly, you need to know how much power is being dissipated in the SSR. This will be its voltage drop switched on times the current being switched. This will be watts, and the SSR package will have a certain degree C/watt spec. A heat sink will have its own degree C/watt spec. Say you are switching 15 amps and have a 1 volt drop across that SSR, that will be 15 watts of dissipation. If you have a 5 degree C/watt heat sink impedence, then the heat sink would get to 75 degrees C above the ambient temperature. This puts you very close to 100 degree C, which is really too hot. (all of the above assumes a 100% duty cycle on the SSR).
Note the heat sink rating may be for either convection or forced-air cooling, so you have to examine the spec with some care.
The Edisonian approach will be to put something together and see if it burns up or smells bad (or you notice it gets hot prior to the above happening).
Arcin' & Sparkin'
You could always do what's done at the fab shop. Just hand it to Stumpy and if he screams and drops it and starts calling you unmentionable names you know it got to hot and it's back to the drawing board. :o :D ;D ::)
They still get him with the ole "Grab that wire Stumpy and tell me if it's a live one will ya?" Gotta love him but ya just can't fix stupid sometimes. Heck of a friendly guy but................. ;)
Ok folks, I think this thing is done. I feel bad about skimping on the heatsink instructions, so please keep the ideas coming regarding the subject. There's alot of creative people here.
I'm still thinking that the optional aluminum cover this box comes with could be used as a heatsink. From what I understand, heatsinks need to be made of copper or aluminum. If I could change anything about this project, I think it would have been trying to use the cover. Attach the heatsink to the cover with epoxy. Done. Maybe drill a couple of small holes for airflow, maybe not.
I may do this on my next project box.
Thanks again to everyone. If anyone sees anything wrong with the post, please let me know so I can correct it.
rob schmit
robs,
Wouldn't using epoxy to glue the ssr to the aluminum insulate it and keep it from transfering the heat as well? I figure that is why the ssr has a aluminum plate for mounting. I have mine screwed to the side of the box and haven't had any trouble yet, but i only used the 10 amp ssr.
MRH
Quote from: MRH on August 23, 2006, 05:35:08 AM
robs,
Wouldn't using epoxy to glue the ssr to the aluminum insulate it and keep it from transfering the heat as well? I figure that is why the ssr has a aluminum plate for mounting. I have mine screwed to the side of the box and haven't had any trouble yet, but i only used the 10 amp ssr.
MRH
I don't think so. I'm not an expert in the area but the research I've done suggests otherwise. Are you questioning the use of JB Weld as the thermal epoxy? I followed these instructions http://maximumpc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=512175&sid=c5a1238a05c1723c0c5eee42d2e8699f and it seems to be working fine.
rob
robs,
I wasn't questioning it, just didn't know if it would conduct the heat or not. I know the Electronic tech here at work usies some special grease between heat sink conections.
MRH
Quote from: MRH on August 23, 2006, 11:09:07 AM
robs,
I wasn't questioning it, just didn't know if it would conduct the heat or not. I know the Electronic tech here at work usies some special grease between heat sink conections.
MRH
I think it will work. I contacted a local computer place and they said that they use a similiar thermal epoxy. I believe that most video cards have the heatsink attached with a thermal epoxy.
Awesome job guys.... As I JUST received my BS and went with the stainless over digital, if I do this upgrade aren't I basically turning it into a digital model or is there a greater benefit besides the set it and forget it aspect???? As I live in a condo I'm not going to be able to leave it alone for HOURS at a time, the fire dept will likely show up, the nosey neighbors!!!
As far as a heat sink, believe it or not your local Remote Control hobby shop might be able to help out a little. The heat sinks to most Nitro powered motors look like they'd work and might even look pretty cool too!!!
I think your right on track there BillyG. I can't really see any benifit of the BS Digital vs The BS Original with PID controller. I can't say for sure though because I've not tried the digital yet.
As far as the heat sink goes........... if you have a spare German Shepard that snoops around as much as mine you have an automatic heat sink every time he sniffs and licks. Just kidding. :D ;D ;)
Welcome to the forum.
Regards; Patrick.
BillyG,
Welcome to the forums. Next, a PID controller just makes it an easier unit to use. When doing items like sausage and you want it at 160 F with little to no temp swings is when a PID unit will really shine.
Olds.
OK! Unless I missed something it is now on the recipe site. There are a few modifications made, and Cyber Dude has yet to frame out the images for me. Check it out! If you see something wrong let me know!
http://susan.rminor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315
Phew I'm glad this one is over with. ;D
Guys, keep in mind we are only talking about a 4 amp. load being switched the the SSR. That's not enough of a load to require a heat sink. When I installed my 10 amp. SSR in my smoke generator I just bolted it to the case without a heat sink. I just added a little heat sink compound to the back of it before bolting it in. I've had boston butts in my BS for 24 hours without any noticable temp rise.
I personally don't think a heat sink is required whether you install your PID in the smoke generator or a separate box. Just my opinion.
Bubbagump
Quote from: bubbagump on August 23, 2006, 06:13:57 PM
Guys, keep in mind we are only talking about a 4 amp. load being switched the the SSR. That's not enough of a load to require a heat sink. When I installed my 10 amp. SSR in my smoke generator I just bolted it to the case without a heat sink. I just added a little heat sink compound to the back of it before bolting it in. I've had boston butts in my BS for 24 hours without any noticable temp rise.
I personally don't think a heat sink is required whether you install your PID in the smoke generator or a separate box. Just my opinion.
Bubbagump
I agree Bubbagump - I don't think one is needed. My next one will not have a heatsink.
Thanks for the info.
rob
Quote from: robs on August 23, 2006, 06:16:15 PM
I agree Bubbagump - I don't think one is needed. My next one will not have a heatsink.
Robs, I can understand feeling as if you have too few guns, fly rods, single malts, or vintage ports, but too few PIDs ??? ??? ??? :D
I'm running 25 / 30 amps through my smokers. Heat sink or not? I use 2 and 3 generators on each smoker and at least 2 / 1500 watt heating elements in each one. ??? I plan on using the 45 amp SSR on each one.
Quote from: iceman on August 23, 2006, 08:40:37 PM
I'm running 25 / 30 amps through my smokers. Heat sink or not? I use 2 and 3 generators on each smoker and at least 2 / 1500 watt heating elements in each one. ??? I plan on using the 45 amp SSR on each one.
I'm guessing that with 2/1500 watt elements and 45amp SSR, you will need heatsinks.
I'll plan on it robs. Thanks.
Quote from: iceman on August 24, 2006, 08:59:08 AM
I'll plan on it robs. Thanks.
Let me know if you have any questions regarding purchase, connections, etc. I'd be happy to help.
rob
Are any of you guys planning on premaking these units and selling them .Just a thought.You guys did a great job doing this project ;D.I would buy one of these .But ive got my sliderbar and temps for what i do down to a tee.All my food that has come out of my bs is great and i have it down pat.But for all the other people out there that would like this pid.It seems there might be a small market here for them.Once again great job guys. ;)
Ice, my humble suggestion would be to call Crydom Tech. Support(877-702-7700), describe your application, load, PID cycling rate, etc. and see which SSR configuration they would recommend. ;)
Quote from: icerat4 on August 24, 2006, 09:31:36 AM
Are any of you guys planning on premaking these units and selling them .Just a thought.You guys did a great job doing this project ;D.I would buy one of these .But ive got my sliderbar and temps for what i do down to a tee.All my food that has come out of my bs is great and i have it down pat.But for all the other people out there that would like this pid.It seems there might be a small market here for them.Once again great job guys. ;)
I've considered it. There is still alot of work to be done. I would consider what we've done to be a prototype.
FYI. PID User Manual
http://users.rcn.com/erics/PID/AuberIns_PID_Manual.pdf
QuoteI've considered it. There is still a lot of work to be done. I would consider what we've done to be a prototype.
Just a simple word of caution, and I don't want to step out of line here, but if you do make them then I would suggest looking at what it takes to get them UL approved, and look at the cost of Product Liability Insurance which is anything but cheap.
Many years back I looked into Product Liability Insurance for a line of private labeled cleaning supplies. When I got the quote I looked at the amount and told my insurance man that I was not looking for that much coverage... he replied: No that is your annual premium! DUH~~~!
If you have $100.00 in parts the minimum to sell it would be $200.00. Things add up quickly. It is kind of like most folks never see what an employee really cost an employer. For Example, for every $100.00 in salary I pay to an employee it cost me $138.00.
The 38% override is made up of FICA, Unemployment Tax, Workman's Comp, Health Insurance, General Liability Insurance, Employers Quarterly Federal Tax which is base off of our FICA, plus other Benefits--paid vacations, sick days, holidays.
If you were to do this then get with an accountant if you don't have one and find out if it would be better for you to form a LLC or a Sub-Chapter S Corporation.
Olds
Guy i consider this a side job ;D.This is and never will be a mass product.This is a hobbie a fun thing between a bunch of friends :D.Why complicate things ???.All i am saying is this pid is amougst friends in the bradley family sharing recipes.Me personally i wont use one .Like i said i am fine with my machines.But there is a helping hand out here for those who want this .Once again i am glad this all worked out for all who took the time and effort to put it together. ;) ;D
Beat me to the punch Old's. It's one thing to make something and send it to a friend but a whole barrel of snakes to sell something like that. I was developing a test piece of carbon fiber insulated shield for making chilled armor for police dogs and each UL test was a minimum of $15,000.00 and a year lead time. They needed to do seven different tests minimum. Ouch. The dogs are going to have to wait for some big guys to finish that one. The liability insurance was up there with Bill Gates salary! To bad society has forced things to be this way.
With all the effort that has been put into this I think that if I feel confidant to build it anybody can. You all have done a stupendous job on the project!
Olds, you are spot on right. I have given PID's away but I believe with the right lawyer and circumstances that could back fire on me. It is unfortunate. When I was involved as an amateur race car driver we all had to sign waivers and it was widely know that any mediocre lawyer would destroy it.
If you want to make a PID there is enough information on this site to do it safely and if you still do not feel comfortable find a local mentor.
Brad
The market is small, the liability is big, the satisfaction of doing it yourself is nothing short of sensational.
LIONS AND TIGERS AND LAWYERS. >:(.As much as i understand you guys its just a dam shame.Well i just put it out there.Next topic. :)
Yeah LIABILITY sucks. I have a small side rental business, I started this yr and only way I could get a insurance policy that will cover me from peoples own stupidness is the renter needs to sign a liability release than my insurance covers me ???. If life was fair, I wouldn't need insurance if you signed a liability release. It always comes down to has the best liar(lawyer).
Also how about any fuses on your PID drawing. I went overboard and put a 1 amp slow blow for the PID(auber recommended) and a 15 or 20 amp on the power. I also plan on being able to run a small electric heater for camping or thawing out waterlines in the winter if needed. although will probably won't ever actually do it, but have the ability to.
nodak! Hey if you can send to me pictures of your unit I will be glad to add it....
For those in the know who posted after me there are always those people who want to take a short cut. Limited knowledge does bring destruction on those who listen to that illiterate who wishes to express the important of .... their very limited thought lines / knowledge.
Some people never get it and never will!
Olds
Well some people dont have all the answers like others here :P.And some people like short cuts and will pay for stuff other people spent the time on.And this is a place where there are no stupid questions ???.Just a bunch of love and friendships and o whole lot of SMOKING. ;D Olds i wouldnt put your self out on who gets it and who dosent and who will ever get it.Just make sure you can crank up those shutters fast enough this season. :D
Quote from: TomG on August 24, 2006, 09:47:25 AM
Ice, my humble suggestion would be to call Crydom Tech. Support(877-702-7700), describe your application, load, PID cycling rate, etc. and see which SSR configuration they would recommend. ;)
Iceman - TomG has given excellent advice concerning your question. I have used Crydoms' Tech support in the past and have been very satisfied with it.
Old's - With regard to UL rating and liability, couldn't agree more. Even the slightest mod. to a UL listed device voids its rating, and skyrockets your liability. Screw one of these mods. up and burn someone's house or deck down (god forbid injuring or killing someone) and see how long the friendship lasts when big money is involved.
My 2 cents. :)
Bubbagump
icerat I made up my mind quite some time ago never to address one of your posting again. However, this time I just can no longer let one of your postings slide.
You rat are one of those that just does not get it. I don't care a rat's A$$ that you don't. I do care about this site and the number of people that come here for information. Good folks that will take your from the hip information as truth.
As far as your statement" And this is a place where there are no stupid questions I have not seen a question as of late from you in this thread where you did anything but state your off-sided opinion.
I will tell you clearly that given your history, and now with this current event that you are very lucky that I'm not Admin here. Does POOF come to mine? You are a dangerous member of this community!
A Hint For You, and this is based upon your own statement: Well some people don't have all the answers like others here. The answer is Silence is Golden when knowledge / truth is lacking.
While all those that have replied since my last posting are on spot I believe bubbagump's closing statement is so clear that even a Rat can get it.... and see how long the friendship lasts when big money is involved.
I have written this beratement out so that anyone who has read your posting will come quickly to know that they had just read a Rat's misleading off the hip opinion.
I do hope I don't have to waste more time addressing your off the hip statements again.
Olds
Quote from: nodak on August 25, 2006, 11:16:50 AM
15 or 20 amp on the power.
Nodak, Just a thought re; your 15 A fuse. BS, anticipating that an owner might use the oven plugged directly into power without the generator and its 8 Amp fuse, put a fixed 10 Amp fuse next to and in series with the high temp cut off switch. I've also fused the power side of my pid, but use a standard, replaceable 8 Amp AGC fuse. If the system shorts, the 8 Amp fuse will blow and I won't have to call BS for their 10 Amp proprietary fuse and then tear the oven apart to replace it.
Sorry guys.Olds has a thing for me >:(.I wont go on here with him and make this an up and back deal.I apoligize to anyone that has taken my post the wrong way.Olds i do have one last parting shot for you.Please dont play god your not right on all occasions people have opioions and thats what i gave.You dont have to go into attack mode because something here posted dosent meet your standards.Who made you god here.Please do not attack one of my post again.I am not leaving here. I like it and i think i do add a little here.Not like u o mighty one but just a lilttle.This is supposed to be fun.But your turning this into something else.So take a chill pill and relax old man and stay cool.And ill do the same .SORRY once again guys your work and a job well done on this pid system.Good luck to all ya.ICE OUT... :'(
Hey guys!
I think everyone just needs to take a time out!! ::)
Anne