Bacteria Safety Help

manxman · March 08, 2005, 08:28:17 PM

Hi Olds,

Just read your email, hopefully you have got my reply.

Manxman.

Habanero Smoker · March 13, 2005, 12:47:04 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by manxman
 Hi Mamba,

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Non sporing cells of food poisoning bacteria are killed at temps >60C (140F) after exposure for 10 - 30 minutes or more at that temp, dependant on type. The longer the exposure the higher the degree of destruction. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The answer to Chez's original question is that in most instances.... yes!

However there are always exceptions (e.g spores)as science is rarely black and white, there are always exceptions to the rule! What I was trying to impart was that the cooking is only one part, albeit a very important part, of a bigger picture.

I did'nt want anyone to take any reply out of context.

Experiments have shown that slow low temp cooking holds no greater hazard than convential cooking providing manufacturers instructions are followed and all aspects of the process controlled.

Manxman.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Manxman,
I was not quite comfortable with this answer. Today while I was at the Culinary Institute of America (CIA), I thought I would get one more perspective on this matter. I posed Kirk's scenario to the chef, using a 3-4 hour example of meat/food being left in temperatures at which bacteria grow. He stated that this was not a good procedure to practice. Cooking the meat over 140 degrees F for a long enough period of time, will that kill all bacteria? Most likely. Is the food safe to eat? You are taking a risk.

For this example, he broke it down into two types of food borne illness; 1) Food Infection and 2) Food Toxicity. Food Infection is caused by digesting live bacteria and/or spores. The second, Food Toxicity, is caused toxins that are a waste byproduct of the growth of certain bacteria. Not all toxins are destroyed by high temperature, and when there are sufficient amount of toxins on the meat, this can cause illness after being digested. This type of food poisoning is less harmful, with the exception of Clostridium botulinum (Botulism). Though you would not need to be treated as you would if you got a severe case of Food Infection, it could make you and your guest ill.

Chez Bubba · March 13, 2005, 09:06:19 PM

Manx & Habs,

Thanks! Between your two answers, I seem to understand it a lot better.[8D]

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

manxman · March 14, 2005, 02:23:29 PM

Hi Habs,

Which bit of what I posted does'nt sit easy with you, I have the impression I may have been taken out of context which is what I wanted to avoid in the first place, if so I apologise for any confusion. [:D][:D]

On reading through your post and the information from the (other) CIA I suspect we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

I plan to expand on spores and toxins a bit in the article Oldman asked me to put together. I have also unearthed some information about recommended internal cooking temperatures for different meats. (beef, pork, chicken etc.)

I am not and never have advocated using 140F as a minimum temperature adequate for cooking food, 160F to 170F is the minimum for cooking whilst 145F has been proved to be safe to hold cooked food prior to processing. (eating, chilling etc. etc.)

Slow cookers appear to operate at temperatures around 170F and above.

One thing though, I would never contemplate leaving food for 3 - 4 hours in the "danger zone" for bacterial growth which most groups recommend is up to 140F.

Every recommendation I have seen by various US and UK food safety groups say 1.5 to 2 hours maximum.

It gets back to that at time zero and starting with a single bacteria, at two hours you have 64 bacteria, at 3 - 4 hours you have between 512 and 4096 and 2097152 at 7 hours, given optimum growing conditions.

Manxman.

Habanero Smoker · March 14, 2005, 04:00:55 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by manxman
 
The answer to Chez's original question is that in most instances.... yes!

Manxman.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I thought we were on the same page. What made me uncomfortable about the post was the above statement. Maybe its just me, but since there was no clear mention of any risk, it sounded as if it was absolutely safe to eat food that had been at a temperature for bacterial growth for more time then is recommended by the FDA, as long as it was cooked to a high enough temperature. Maybe it's the way I interpreted what you posted.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by manxman
 Hi Habs,

....One thing though, I would never suggest leaving food for 3 - 4 hours in the danger zone for bacterial growth which most groups recommend is up to 140F. Every recommendation I have seen by various US and UK food safety groups say 1.5 to 2 hours maximum.
Manxman.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You have cleared that up for me, with your last post.

I was paraphrasing what he was stating. The 140 degree temperature was used by the chef as a minimum temperature that kills bacteria - explaining that the temperature would have to be held for some time to kill all bacteria. He was addressing his comments to a group of people, which the CIA calls "Food Enthusiasts" (I believe that is code for "Wanna Be Chef"[:D]. I am sure if he was in his other role of Educator for future chefs, he would have used other examples, and been more thorough. Also, it was not a subject that most of the group wanted to discuss prior to cooking their own lunch.[:D][:D]

manxman · March 14, 2005, 05:36:49 PM

Hi Habs,

Yeah, think we are singing off the same hymn sheet, and much better to clear up any interpretation issues given the subject topic!! [:D][:D]

At least if this discussion and information saves one person from making them or their family unwell then it has served a purpose!! [:D][:D]

Just hope it does'nt make people worry unnecessarily, it seems you are far more likely to pick up something eating out than cooking at home by whatever means.

Manxman.

Bassman · March 26, 2005, 04:02:04 PM

I have a question for all you food saftey gurus,

Is there any danger in taking a frozen vaccuum sealed bag of meat,like pulled pork,and putting it in a pot of boiling water to re-heat while it's still sealed? Assuming of coarse that everything was handled properly prior to freezing.

Jack

Habanero Smoker · March 26, 2005, 08:31:47 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bassman
 I have a question for all you food saftey gurus,

Is there any danger in taking a frozen vaccuum sealed bag of meat,like pulled pork,and putting it in a pot of boiling water to re-heat while it's still sealed? Assuming of coarse that everything was handled properly prior to freezing.

Jack
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
None that I can see. I vacuum seal in small portions, so that I can reheat by placing the bags in boiling water. Most food safety sites state to reheat to 165 F., but I don't test the temperature when I reheat, unless I am having guests [:D]

Crazy Canuck · March 27, 2005, 02:35:13 AM

What happened to the old days when you could have a medium rare steak and plate full of smoked shrimp[?][?]

Addicted to Smokin[:p][:p][:p]
DanR
Fort St. John BC

Oldman · March 27, 2005, 08:53:15 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What happened to the old days when you could have a medium rare steak and plate full of smoked shrimp[?][?][?]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nothing!! There are still here with this Oldman~~!

Olds

http://rminor.com

Habanero Smoker · March 27, 2005, 09:25:50 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crazy Canuck
 What happened to the old days when you could have a medium rare steak and plate full of smoked shrimp[?][?]

Addicted to Smokin[:p][:p][:p]
DanR
Fort St. John BC
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Those days are still here![:D][:D]

Nothing wrong with a medium rare steak.

manxman · March 27, 2005, 01:20:15 PM

Hiya,

I agree with Habanero Smoker, as long as it was processed properly prior to freezing and reheated adequately there should be no problems.

Now I have a vacuum sealer I have done this several times including food for my two boys aged 7 and 4, certainly would'nt take a chance with them if I thought there was a risk!

Manxman.

Bassman · March 27, 2005, 02:21:00 PM

Thanks Habanero & Manxman,
I appreciate the info!!![:)]

Jack