Celery Juice powder

[BuyLowSellHigh]

Posting on this in another thread, I realized that I should have included some references.  For anyone who is interested in using natural cures based on celery products, some excellent work has been done by Prof. Joe Sebranek in the Dept. of Meat Science at Iowa State University. 

A forewarning - the references noted below are academic in nature and are not the easiest reading (lots of what 10.5 would call $50 words).  While there is no practical "how to" for the home curing enthusiast, they do treat well the issues and concerns that anyone pursuing this kind of curing will face and should know about.

The first is a pdf of a power point presentation (slides).

A very important conclusion in that presentation (page 10),
It appears that natural and organic "uncured"
RTE processed meat products will permit
greater growth of L. monocytogenes and Cl.
perfringens and earlier toxin production by Cl.
botulinum than conventionally cured
products.

Next is a very full and complete paper that I highly encourage anyone contemplating using celery juice products as a nitrate/nitrite source to thoroughly read.
http://www.meatscience.org/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=5260

While the paper should be read in it's entirety, a section I would like to emphasize is Ingredients Used For Natural and Organic Cured Meats that begins on page 6. On the next page in that section a very key point is made,
A critical ingredient for processed meats with natural nitrate
sources is a nitrate-reducing bacterial culture, if typical cured meat
properties are the final objective.

Finally, a recent survey (analysis) that tested and compared natural and organic bacon with traditionally cured bacon
http://www.ans.iastate.edu/report/air/2009pdf/R2392.pdf

In that work you can see the analytical results for things like residual nitrite, salt, etc.  On average the amount of residual nitrite is a bit lower in the natural/organic products but not greatly so (5.4 vs 7.1 ppm).  In the discussion of the results the following was noted,
It appears that natural and organic bacon products are more variable than traditionaly-cured bacon for the quality characteristics measured in this study.

If you want to use celery juice products instead of traditional curing agents, hopefully these references will help get you on the right path, even though they aren't easy reading.

[NePaSmoKer]

My 2 pennys worth.

Dont waste your time with it. JMO

[rkp]

Thanks, that's a lot of good information and i will read it all. On my first attempt with the celery powder the sausage appears darker in color and has a very good flavor.

[bovine0001]

Late entry, I hope someone sees this and picks it up, as this has been the most intelligent conversation I have seen yet on the subject.

I find the topic of the "dangerous" nitrates highly entertaining, due to my disbelief of their true harm and the fact that several of my family members swear by migraines caused by the nitrates.

Today, I showed them the Celery juice powder in their nitrate free products.  I also pointed out the amount of nitrates in the spinach we will eat tonight.  I make it very clear they are consuming enormous amounts of nitrates.

That said, when they eat the cheap Canadian bacon on the pizza, or bacon from Denny's, the headaches ensue.

Of course, the other reading I do indicates that nitrites can bind to hemoglobin quite well and is why they need to be avoided in infants (bacon in a bottle?).  I wonder if this is something to do with the headaches people speak of.  Or, is there a production of nitrous oxide leading to vasodilation, this dilation being the current hypothesis behind migraines.  The mechanism is rather moot, I simply point out the nitrite seems the culprit rather than nitrate and nitrate/nitrite issue is respected by neurologists as a problem for migraine sufferers.

Now, if nitrates are converted to nitrites by bacteria, I would propose that more bacteria make more nitrites and then more headaches.  I wonder if this means the cheap meats we buy from Pizza Hut or Denny's maybe have a touch more bacteria than our neighbourhood butcher who makes the super tasty bacon with all the evil Prague #1.

An alternate hypothesis, the cheaper meats are quick cured with high levels of nitrite rather than nitrate, leading to very high nitrite levels and subsequently higher chances with the migraines.

I presume the latter, as most cheap meat still must be edible pass FDA inspection. 

So is the slow curing with nitrate, leading to as little production of nitrate as possible, the reason for the headaches?  Dunno.  Tough thing is, I doubt any argument I make will help me in my house of nitrate haters.

[NePaSmoKer]

Late entry, I hope someone sees this and picks it up, as this has been the most intelligent conversation I have seen yet on the subject.

I find the topic of the "dangerous" nitrates highly entertaining, due to my disbelief of their true harm and the fact that several of my family members swear by migraines caused by the nitrates.

Today, I showed them the Celery juice powder in their nitrate free products.  I also pointed out the amount of nitrates in the spinach we will eat tonight.  I make it very clear they are consuming enormous amounts of nitrates.

That said, when they eat the cheap Canadian bacon on the pizza, or bacon from Denny's, the headaches ensue.

Of course, the other reading I do indicates that nitrites can bind to hemoglobin quite well and is why they need to be avoided in infants (bacon in a bottle?).  I wonder if this is something to do with the headaches people speak of.  Or, is there a production of nitrous oxide leading to vasodilation, this dilation being the current hypothesis behind migraines.  The mechanism is rather moot, I simply point out the nitrite seems the culprit rather than nitrate and nitrate/nitrite issue is respected by neurologists as a problem for migraine sufferers.

Now, if nitrates are converted to nitrites by bacteria, I would propose that more bacteria make more nitrites and then more headaches.  I wonder if this means the cheap meats we buy from Pizza Hut or Denny's maybe have a touch more bacteria than our neighbourhood butcher who makes the super tasty bacon with all the evil Prague #1.

An alternate hypothesis, the cheaper meats are quick cured with high levels of nitrite rather than nitrate, leading to very high nitrite levels and subsequently higher chances with the migraines.

I presume the latter, as most cheap meat still must be edible pass FDA inspection. 

So is the slow curing with nitrate, leading to as little production of nitrate as possible, the reason for the headaches?  Dunno.  Tough thing is, I doubt any argument I make will help me in my house of nitrate haters.

Nitrates are everywhere. Natural in our bodies, In our food, veggys from the ground.

[bovine0001]

Yes, but excess of any substance, whether nutrient or otherwise, is not so good.  I am not going to sign on to the cancer causing argument, but rather the fact that it is widely accepted that some have headaches due to cured meats.  If anything, i simply ask the question "why can people get away with eating vegetable based nitrates and not certain cured meats?"  I vote excessive nitrites.

[NePaSmoKer]

Yes, but excess of any substance, whether nutrient or otherwise, is not so good.  I am not going to sign on to the cancer causing argument, but rather the fact that it is widely accepted that some have headaches due to cured meats.  If anything, i simply ask the question "why can people get away with eating vegetable based nitrates and not certain cured meats?"  I vote excessive nitrites.

Whos arguing?

This is a 2 year old thread? Why bring all this up again.


If you wanna have a fit about nitrates go to another forum.