What's a good chicken brine or rub?

[KDX]

I was digging through the freezer and found a whole chicken at the bottom. As I've always wanted to smoke one and we will be having company over on the 30th I figured it's time for that bird to make itself usefull. Any good recipes? Should I split it? Any good directions or suggestions as this will be my first bird. Thanks in advance.

Edited to add....what's a good rub also?

[nsxbill]

Hello KDX

I really do it the simple way with chicken.  I use Wishbone Italian Dressing dip for 24 hours.  Nice flavor.  When it come out of the refer, I put on the racks, and dust with my favorite rub, and pop it in the smoker.  The last time, I wrapped boneless skinless breasts in bacon.  They were fantastic.  I picked up a couple of vertical racks recently, and going to try them out next time I do  whole chickens(2).  

Bill

[Habanero Smoker]

Here is a link to a thread about brining poultry http://www.bradleysmoker.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=677 . Also you should check out this site on brining, and other topics on smoking http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html . While you are at that site click on the Cooking link and scroll done until you see the section on Poultry, you will find some rub recipes there, as well as rubs list in various threads of this forum.

You should invest in Cheryl and Bill Jamison's "Smoke & Spice".

[birdboy]

I just tried the high temp brine listed in the Weber link that Habanero provided for you.  You will want something else in addition to that brine and/or you will also want to brine it longer than the 2-3 hours that they stated.

I brined for 2-3 hours, brushed with EVOO then sprinkled with the southwestern spice receipe and then smoked with Pecan for 2 1/2 hours.

The result...Bland... I would definitely spice under the skin, neither the spice nor the smoke seemed to penetrate the skin.  If I used the same basic brine I would brine longer, but I would probably try one one of the brines that have been posted with more ingredients in it other than sugar and salt.

Now the goose breasts that I did the same thing with (except brined for 11 hours) and covered with bacon turned out excellent!

[bsolomon]

birdboy,

I have the original article from Cooks Illustrated regarding the development and rationale for the "high-temp" brine.  Any brine listed as "high-temp" is designed specifically for (amazingly enough[:0]) high-temperature cooking styles, such as 500 degree roasting (which is what they were trying to do with their turkey if I recall the article).  The idea with these brines is that at higher temperatures, the sugar portion would typically burn, so "high temp" brines are ususally are very low in sugar.  

Perhaps, part of the blandness you describe can be attributed to the lack of sugar penetrating into the meat along with the salt.  For anything you will be smoking, any standard brine should be fine and you should have to worry about the sugar burning.  

The second possibility is the brining time you listed.  2-3 hours would be on the low end for cut-up pieces of poultry.  I typically would do 8 hours for whole chickens, and I up to 24 hours for a whole turkey (i.e., the thicker the meat, the more brining time required).

Definitely apply rub under the skin next time.  Also, I would up the smoking time - I do about 4 hours with pecan or maple on chicken with really good results.

As Chez will point out, rules for sugar in brines differ from sugar for rubs.  The outer surface of the meat is obviously in contact with the higher temperatures of the cooking chamber, and even in a 200 degree smoker, you can get burning of sugar in your rubs.  So if you do have sugar in a rub recipe, we recommend Turbinado sugar, which has a much higher temperature resistance than standard white or brown sugar.

[birdboy]

Thanks Bsolomon,  Good info.  The reason I went with high temp is it was lower in salt and sugar, I don't like overly salty or at all sweet meats.  I think your right on the time of brine, I went with what they suggested, but I have done goose breasts for 12 hours and they turned out pretty good, I'll try this with chicken next time.

Now that I have a copy of Smoke and Spice, I'm hoping to find some better receipe's for rubs and I'll definitely use it under the skin.
The chicken sure seemed to have more flavor penetration the second day.

Whats your opinion of controling the saltyness of your product.  For instance in the Fish forum I posted about trying Kummock's Salmon receipe.  I followed someone's advice later in the post and cut the sugar in 1/2, that seemed to work, wasn't sweet.  However, there is salt in the brine and there was also quite a bit of soy, I brined for 12 hours, and it came out pretty salty.  Would you adjust the salt, the soy or the time in the brine?

[bsolomon]

Well, I'm certainly no expert on brining, I just know what I've read and tried.  I have never noticed that the sugar in a basic brine contributes to a particularly noticable sweet taste in the finished product, so I have never really worried about using what the recipe called for.  Perhaps the use of sugar accounts for an overall lessening of the salty taste in the finished product?

As to your question about adjusting the salt, soy, or the time: My first thought is that brining times are based on the thickness of the meat being brined and that the osmosis and diffusion processes probably need to go on for the amount of time specified to fully penetrate the meat.  Therefore, you would probably want to keep the time mentioned and lower the relative amount of salt and soy a bit.  Cooks Illustrated also did some testing with low-salt brines and found them to be ineffective in keeping the moisture content in the finished product, which is the main goal, with the addition of flavors as a side effect of the process.  So, don't lower the salt content too much.  If it keeps ending up too salty for your taste, you are probably better off skipping the brining altogether rather than reducing the time or salt too much.

[Habanero Smoker]

KDX;
I'm like you. I don't like my food too salty. For Kummock's Salmon receipe, I would substitute Kosher salt for the pickling salt, and use a light sodium soy sauce. If it continued to be salty, I would start adjusting the time you leave the fish in the brine. I have had good results brining salmon using the following rules; if the fish is in chunks or fillets, if it's 1" thick I brine 4-8 hours, 1/2" thick about 4 hours. Any thinner I don't go more than two hours. Whole fish is a different story, but I never brined a whole fish.

[birdboy]

Ya I substituted Koscher for pickling salt, though my ratio may have been off, are the a 1:1 ratio?

I think next time I'll try light soy.

It wasn't bad a little on the salty side, but I tried several different brines on the Salmon and Kummock's was the overall favorite.

[Chez Bubba]

That's why it's stickyed![;)] Ya gotta taste to believe.[8D]

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

[Habanero Smoker]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by birdboy</i>
<br />Ya I substituted Koscher for pickling salt, though my ratio may have been off, are the a 1:1 ratio?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I'm so happy there is cut and paste: [:D]
<font color="green"><i>"Pickling salt is a very fine ground salt that has no additives, it looks like table salt. I believe the Diamond Crystal brand comes in a round plastic jar (or that may be Morton's, I should go to my pantry to check). It is a much denser then kosher salt and is equal to approximately 1 1/2 cups of Morton's Kosher salt, and about 2 cups of Diamond Crystal Kosher salt."</i></font id="green">

[birdboy]

Ya my wife looked at the receipe and didn't think it sounded good at all.....until she tried some of it !

Ya Hab, I just saw that in the other thread [;)]
Interesting though, If i used the Koscher salt at the same measure the receipe called for pickling salt, that would mean I actually used less salt than the receipe called for ... and it still came out a little too salty.  

I'll try the light Soy and see how that works.