To cure, or not to cure........that is the question....

[kimbosabi]

Hi there, brand new to this forum and confused.  I am new to this smoking business and are just LOVING it.  However, I don't understand why some of the recipe's that came with the Bradley smoker state to cure the meat using Sifto Quik Kure and some don't?  Also, I thought Pork had to be cooked to about 175 F to be considered "FoodSafe" yet in the recipe book some recipe's are to cook to 140F.  I'm very confused.  Can anyone clear the fog for me!

[pensrock]

Welcome to the forum.

Habs is probably best to answer this for you.

That said it depends on how long the food is going to be at an unsafe temperature as to use a cure or not. Also sometimes a cure is used to just change the taste of the finished product.

I'm sure there are different places on the web that will give different temps to cook various meats to. One temp is most likely for the food police and some others will give a temp they prefer for that kind/cut of meat.

Like I said there are others here that can answer your question better than I, just hang in there till they show up.

[Habanero Smoker]

Hi kimbosabi,

Welcome to the forum.

Without looking at the recipe, a cure can be used for two or more purposes. Mainly it is use to protect the meat from bacteria when you are smoking at low temperatures and the meat will be in the danger zone (40°F to 140°F), more over two hours while it is in the smoker. A second is to add additional flavor. A curing salt wil add the flavor of cured ham to your food. A third is to produce a rosey color in the meat, or to produce a false "smoke ring".

I'm not sure if you are from the States or Canada, but in the States USDA recommend 170°F for well done, and 160°F for medium. These are recommendations that will absolutely insure safety. Most current reliable cook books and chefs will use 140°F - 145°F, because it is safe at that temperature and will not dry out. But like Pens states many references will give you a variety of what is considered "desirable doness". When using my smoker I take my pork to 142°F, and during rest it will climb an additional 2° - 5°. I feel the 142° is safe, but you should cook the meat to a temperature you feel comfortable with.

When Is Meat Done? Pt. 2

[Roadking]

From the book "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas

CURING MEAT

Probably the least-understood subject in the world today is the curing of processed meats and sausage. I think it would be safe to say that not one person in 50,000 really knows what is happening when a piece of meat is being cured.
In a national magazine, I actually read some do-it-yourselfer calling a dried out piece of meat a cured product. Nothing could be further from the truth.
References to the use of nitrate as a cure can be traced back several hundred years. When using nitrite to cure meat, it combines with the pigment of the meat to form a pink color and flavor the meat as well.
Flavor in what way? To give you an example about flavoring the meat, let us consider the leg of a hog, better known as ham to most people. The leg of pork when cooked or roasted is, pure and simple, roast pork. However, when this very same pork is injected or pickled in brine, it now becomes "ham" after being boiled or cooked in a smokehouse.
What a difference in flavor we have between roast pork and boiled or smoked ham! It is the nitrite that has the ability to impart these special flavors. Without its use, there would be no hams, bacons, picnics, or Canadian bacon, and all we would have is pieces of cooked or roast pork. Additionally, nitrites also help to prevent rancidity in the storage of meats.
Most important of all, nitrite protects the meat products from the deadly toxin known as botulism. The botulism poisoning we are talking about is the most deadly form of food poisoning known to man.
Very simply diagnosed, your vision is blurred in less than a day. You have trouble holding up your head, as your neck muscles are not working very well. A little while later, you have difficulty in speaking. All the neck and throat muscles do not function, and you see everything double. This is then followed by the failure of chest and diaphragm muscles, cardiac arrest, and then pulmonary failure.
It's allover in about three days if not detected. This is botulism, or food poisoning: insidious, painful and deadly. Worst of all, botulism can produce its deadly toxin even without a foul odor or other sign of contamination. Botulism spores are the most resistant forms of life known to man.
Cures are critical in the manufacture of smoked and cooked meat to prevent food poisoning. Botulism spores are found in every type of meat or vegetable. They are harmless and cause no problems. Lack of oxygen, low acidity, proper nutrients, moisture, and temperatures in the range of 40 degrees F. to 140 degrees F., however, are where the problems begin.
It becomes obvious that sausage and meat are consistently smoked in these temperature ranges. The sausages are moist, and the smoke or heat eliminates the oxygen creating perfect conditions for food poisoning if you do not use cures.
For home use, however, you should not confuse the cooking of meat in your oven with smoking meat in a smoker. Most ovens will build up a 200 degree F. temperature on the "low" setting, and most people start baking well over that temperature. This high starting temperature prevents botulism spores from surviving. This information is only meant to impress you with the fact that when you smoke meat at a low temperature, the real possibility of food poisoning is present.
Often I've had people tell me that their grandparents didn't use cures when smoking meats, since some people feel cures are not necessary. Would a person so young really know what his grandpa- rents were doing? Probably not.
Or better still, back in the good 01' days, how many people died of natural causes? An excuse a physician would give you when he couldn't diagnose why the person died, no matter how old or young the patient was, was that the cause was "natural." Fortunately for us the physician today can easily diagnose food poisoning problems, and this book was written to help avoid them.

[Roadking]

In much simpler terms, how many times have you read about food poisoning around Thanksgiving and other holidays? The well- intentioned cook decides to make the dressing for the turkey the night before. This gives her more time to do many other important things the next day. She stuffs the turkey the night before, and places it in the refrigerator to be cooked the next day.
Unfortunately, she doesn't know she is creating ideal conditions for food poisoning. Obviously, the stuffing that she put into the turkey is somewhere between 40 and 140 degrees F. Because the various parts of dressing have some sort of liquid in them, the moisture is also there. Lastly, she sews up the turkey to create a lack of oxygen in its cavity.
It is that simple to create food poisoning: proper temperatures of 40-140 degrees F., moisture, and lack of oxygen. To be sure, whenever you smoke any kind of product in the low range of 40-140 degrees F., it should be cured. If you can't cure it, don't smoke it. It doesn't matter if it's meat, fish, poultry, cheese, or vegetable; don't take the chance. It's a pretty good bet that anything you will smoke has some moisture in it. You are removing oxygen when smoking the product and the temperatures are ideal.
Do not forget this one cardinal rule: IF IT CAN'T BE CURED, DON'T SMOKE IT.
Most nitrite used in curing meat disappears from the product after it has accomplished its curing effects. Within two weeks after curing, the amount of nitrite remaining in a product may be as little as one-fourth the amount initially added to it. Cured meat products typically contain 10-40 parts per million (PPM) at the time of purchase.
Your mouth and your intestines manufacture nitrite, and there is some evidence that our intestines' nitrite prevents us from poisoning ourselves with the very food we eat every day, since there is moisture in the stomach, lack of oxygen, and correct temperatures for food poisoning.
Furthermore, there has been some evidence of crib deaths when the infant was not able to manufacture enough nitrite in its system and, consequently, died of food poisoning.
Even more interesting, just to name a few nitrite-containing vegetables, plain old ordinary beets have been found to contain 2,760 PPM of nitrite; celery, 1,600 to 2,600 PPM; lettuce, 100 to 1,400 PPM; radishes, 2,400 to 3,000 PPM; potatoes, 120 PPM; and zuc- chini squash, 600 PPM. The source for these nitrites in the vegetables comes from nitrogen fertilizers. It is nitrogen that helps to produce the green color in vegetables and to make them grow faster.
It makes little difference whether you fertilize your vegetable gar- den out of a bag of chemicals or cow manure. The chemical end result will be the same - nitrogen equals nitrite. In recent years, a number of books have been written on the subjects of meat curing and sausage making by people with no background or actual experience in this field. It is frightening to read that these people have recommended the use of ascorbic acid purchased at your local drugstore to cure sausage or meat. There is no documented scientific proof that botulism can be prevented by using ascorbic acid to cure meat.
You are risking food poisoning if you are using ascorbic acid to cure meat.
The use of these nitrites for curing meats has recently come under attack by various groups of people and some government agencies. Unfortunately, there is no other substitute in the world today that can do the job. The next best thing to do is to find out if we can actually do without these chemicals, or simply lower the levels of their use.
At this time, I cannot think of anything more timely to put down on paper than the most recent rule changes proposed by the "Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service." The following paragraphs will give you a better insight on curing meats. These rules are already in effect and have been followed by the large meat processors for the past 20 years. The following was taken from the "Animal and
Plant Health Inspection Service (9 CFR parts 318, 381) Nitrates,
Nitrites and Salt," U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, Animal and Plant Inspections Service, Washington, D.C.

: IF IT CAN'T BE CURED, DON'T SMOKE IT.

From the book "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas

[Tenpoint5]

Very informative reading Roadking

[Habanero Smoker]

Informative, I just wish you leave more white space. :)

I just want to point out the statement "IF IT CAN'T BE CURED, DON'T SMOKE IT"; is true to the technical term of smoking which is ususally Cold Smoking between 60°F - 90°F; and Hot Smoking between 100°F - 180°F.

The temperatures we are using in the Bradley while applying smoke, are generally barbabequing temperatures 200°F - 275°F.

[KyNola]

RK,
I'm not taking issue with you.  I do need you to clarify something for me.  In your post you said if you can't cure it don't smoke it.  You said it makes no difference what it is, fish, meat, poultry, cheese or vegetables.  You got me to thinking about all of the cheese that many of us cold smoke with the intent of keeping the temp in the smoker at less than 80 degrees.  Do I understand you to say that this is an unsafe practice and if so, how do I go about curing cheese?

You're obviously very well versed on the subject and I appreciate your having posted the info.  Just trying to learn more from you.

KyNola

[Roadking]

RK,
I'm not taking issue with you.  I do need you to clarify something for me.  In your post you said if you can't cure it don't smoke it.  You said it makes no difference what it is, fish, meat, poultry, cheese or vegetables.  You got me to thinking about all of the cheese that many of us cold smoke with the intent of keeping the temp in the smoker at less than 80 degrees.  Do I understand you to say that this is an unsafe practice and if so, how do I go about curing cheese?

You're obviously very well versed on the subject and I appreciate your having posted the info.  Just trying to learn more from you.

KyNola

Please read the article again completely. I've copied an article from a book that I made reference to.

It's well expland that it you are going to smoke and you have three things (moisture, low heat 40 degrees - 140 degrees F., and the LACK of oxygen) you have a breeding ground for food poisoning (botulism). The lack of oxygen is the culprit that needs clarifing such as explaned in the article (closing up a turkey with stuffing in it). This is also created by encasing sausage in collegen or natural cases.
Here's my personal thought on the lack of oxygen (examples):
     1. Brined fish filets (skin on one side only) - safe for low temps.
     2. A whole tomato in a dehydrator - unsafe for low temps.
     3. the same tomato cut in half in a dehydrator - safe
The difference is exposed to the air and not exposed to the air.

As far as cheese that we are smoking they already have additives in them to prevent this. If you make your own cheese from scratch you would have to add a cure to it. What cure I don't know I'm not a cheese maker.

As far as using the Bradley. I bought it because I make smoked sausage and smoke whole fish. When I want to make something else at a higher temp. I use my Cookshack.
I've been smoking at low temps for 45 years now (first 5 years commercially) and I'm still alive so I must be doing something right.

[KyNola]

Thanks for the clarification RK.  The examples given in your response helped a lot.

KyNola

[KyNola]

RK,
My sincere apologies to you.  I honestly didn't notice that your post was from Rytek's book.  Maybe I should read posts better before I reply and ask questions.

KyNola

[Tenpoint5]

Don't feel Bad KyNola, I didn't notice it either. And I have the book myself and I know I read that stuff.

[Smokin Soon]

Roadking, Your experience is very helpfull here. Thanks!

[Habanero Smoker]

I must admit I just skimmed through it also, but recognized it was from Rytek's. Without enough white space, it is difficult to read.

[12AMNSX]

This link will shed more light on this subject:

http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=10253.0