I am a dumbass

Chez Bubba · April 20, 2005, 02:30:21 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oldman
 If I could have picked a time to live it would be without a doubt that period of history.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Olds,

I know what you're saying about the beauty & all, but there's one word that sums it up for me to not agree.

Dentistry![:D]

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Chez Bubba · April 20, 2005, 02:33:54 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by owrstrich
 are you getting ready for the bristol renaissance faire...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You gonna wear that to Indy?[:D][:D]

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Chez Bubba · April 20, 2005, 02:39:24 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Phone Guy
 Ever notice these things generally only happen once? I bet you don't do that again. How much for the Rifle? I assume its for sale. [:D][;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
[:D][:D][:D]

Nope, just hastens the priority to get it threaded for a supressor, that'll extend the "danger zone" by 4 or 5 inches.

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Chez Bubba · April 20, 2005, 03:00:22 AM

While we're on the subject:

I used to shoot at a week-long match put on by the folks who invented body armor (Second Chance). Basically, they had different contests for shooting bowling pins with handguns, rifles, shotguns & machineguns. It was a hoot.

In any contest, everyone has a unique theory on how to win. The basic rule of thumb with the main event, shot with .45 autos, was that your cartridge load had to equal 200,000 (bullet weight times velocity). We generally shot 235gr SJHP at about 950fps.

There was a well respected, long time shooter that decided to test his theory that a far heavier bullet at a much slower speed would do the job more efficiently. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of a 300gr bullet at about 650 fps.

He got on the line & we in the crowd watched as he shot his first pin. You could literally see the bullet travel, hit the pin, & bounce back square in the middle of his forehead. Blood--yes, dazed & confused--yes, but basically he was fine, the bullet was just moving too slow to do damage.

Only his pride was hurt, as is mine for my little incident, but he is definately Second Chance lore for life. And after knowing he was OK, a damn funny replay in the mind.

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Fuzzybear · April 21, 2005, 11:00:28 PM

Ahem...there is a "22" round in the upper rafters of a home I used to own in Lake Arrowhead, California...all I remember was that I was sighting up the barrel, pointing at the roof...BANG! Yikes, what the??? Apparently, this particular dumbass forgot to empty the single round in the chamber..

Needless to say, it has not happened since!

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Chattaroy, WA - USA!

Phone Guy · April 21, 2005, 11:53:57 PM

Ok, I dont like to talk about this but many years ago, about 27 or so, I was at my Dads house and my step brother had been shooting the 22 at something using birdshot. I still dont know why the birdshot, you cant kill anything with birdshot in a 22. Anyway he brought the rifle, a 22 pump, into the house and laid it on the table in the kitchen. I was looking at it and wanted to make sure it was unloaded and POW into the ceiling went a nice patern of shot. Well it didn't look to bad so we thought we wouldn't say anything (dumb idea)and nobody would notice. WRONG! I think it was the first thing Dad noticed when he went through the Kitchen later after getting off work. WHAT THE H@#$!! $%#^#@!&*!! HAPPEND TO THE CEILING. I fessed up but blamed it on Gary for bringing a loaded gun in the house. I think that pattern is still there. I will check on my next visit. He lives in Red Bluff CA. It gave him something to talk about for years. We come from a long line of Cowboys so its natural to shoot things up every once in a while. Well I need to go clean my guns....

P.S. This is a true story and no names were changed because no one was inocent

bsolomon · April 22, 2005, 10:05:14 PM

Chez,

That's a pretty funny story. I have always wondered at the vailidity of using the "power floor" calculation as a way to keep things even in competitions. I know the theory is to prevent someone from minimizing their recoil by loading an ultra-light target load, instead of a "real world" defensive load, but punching nice round holes in paper targets is far different from knocking down bowling pins.

Basically, power floor is a momentum calculation which doesn't do the unit converstions to turn the result into a meaningful number. However, it is simple and easy to use: just multiply the mass in grains by the velocity in feet per second, and you get your power floor.

In your example, you shot 235 * 950 = 223,250. Your "friend" shot 300 * 650 = 195,000, so on a power floor basis, these should be comparable rounds, with your round being about 14% more powerful.

However, this other guy seems to have forgotten that the laws of physics apply, even if he chose to ignore them. The real issue to consider when knocking over bowling pins (or a bad guy for that matter) is energy dump into the target. For the sake of this arguement, let's set aside the issue of penetration into the target (and therefore the whole issue of round-nose vs. hollowpoint vs. frangible ammo). So let's just look purely at kinetic energy delivered to the point of impact. KE = 1/2 * m * v * v. (Read this as 1/2mv squared.) The key to this formula is the "squared" or the fact that velocity is multipled in there twice while mass is only in there once. That being the case, you would need a much larger change in mass to compensate for even a small loss in velocity.

Again, without converting units to arrive at actual energy units, let's just run the same numbers into this formula. Chez's round was 1/2 * 235 * 950 * 950 = 106,043,750 and the other round was 1/2 * 300 * 650 * 650 = 63,750,000.

So, we see that even though the power floors were similar, the heavier, slower round hit the target with only about 66% as much energy, which was apparently well below the "knock the bowling pin over threshhold." Maybe that's why they're called "laws of physics" rather than suggestions?[:D][:D][:D]

Chez Bubba · April 23, 2005, 04:16:26 AM

Barry,

If the Second Chance match ever again becomes a reality, you and I have to get together over a smoke & a couple of brews to design our NEW loads![:D][8D]

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Oldman · April 23, 2005, 01:02:25 PM

Without a doubt Barry just impressed the Q out of me [:D]

Olds

JJC · April 23, 2005, 01:08:31 PM

Love this discussion, guys, even though I'm far from a physicist, and I'm not sure what the connection to smokin' is . . .

Does the location of the impact on the bowling pin make a difference? I'm thinking about the fact that the bowling pin is asymmetrically shaped, and has a rather significant mass with a center of gravity. The force one needs to apply to tip an object over decreases as one gets further from the center of gravity (the lever arm effect, if my ancient physics is still sound). The obvious example is a see-saw, where you can take two people of very different weights and balance them by moving the fulcrum/balancing point of the see-saw. In other words, if you hit the bowling pin at the very top, wouldn't it take less force to knock it over than if you hit it along it's center of gravity? Do shooters aim for the top of the pin?

John
Newton MA

Oldman · April 23, 2005, 01:44:10 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You could literally see the bullet travel, hit the pin, & bounce back square in the middle of his forehead.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry I was just thinking about this. Just how close was he to the pin to begin with? Far enough away so "You could literally see the bullet travel" Yet close enough to "bounce back in the middle of his forehead."

I don't understand this at all. [?]

Olds

Chez Bubba · April 24, 2005, 04:13:56 AM

John,

I didn't provide enough detail. In the .45 events, the pins are positioned on a 3-foot deep table at the very front. You can't just knock them over, they have to go off the back of the table.

A bowling pin is shaped much like a human torso, and in a combat situation, has the same valid "hit" areas. Yes, you can take it off with a head shot, but that target is less than half the size. The goal is to hit center mass. If you wing it you risk it spinning & not traveling the 3 feet backward & off the table. Then you have to try & shoot it laying down which is an even smaller target.

If you don't nail the head shot perfectly, very little energy will be tranferred to move the pin backwards since the majority of its weight is much lower.

Olds,

Shooting line to front of the table is 25 feet. I should also clarify that you couldn't necessarily see the bullet on its way to the pin, but you definately saw it coming back. Does that make better sense?

Kirk

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Oldman · April 24, 2005, 12:29:57 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Olds,

Shooting line to front of the table is 25 feet. I should also clarify that you couldn't necessarily see the bullet on its way to the pin, but you definately saw it coming back. Does that make better sense?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Sorta [:D] Not being a gun person (well I have home defense) I'm trying to picture in my mind this event. Is the reason behind it to compete using different tactics?

Olds

Chez Bubba · April 24, 2005, 10:14:43 PM

The event was born from an experience Rich had while traveling the country trying to sell his vests to local PDs. His sales pitch was to go out to the local range & shoot himself in the chest. His doctor later made him stop this as it was seperating his sternum.

One time, a chief asked Rich that although he understood the vest would stop the bullet, what would the capacity of his officer be in order to continue the fight? Their shooting range was at the town dump and Rich found 3 bowling pins, so het set them on a make-shift table.

He proceeds to shoot himself, then stands up and pops all three pins. The chief bought vests.

The shoot is a speed/accuracy game. The fastest to shoot all the pins off the table wins. But in order to get them off the table, you can't just hit them, you have to hit them square. Just like in a real-life shootout.

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Oldman · April 24, 2005, 11:45:16 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">His sales pitch was to go out to the local range & shoot himself in the chest. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dang and I thought cleaning toilets for a living was tough... [xx(]

Olds