Nitrites/Nitrates in Smoked Foods - FYI

Fuzzybear · May 21, 2004, 04:04:47 PM

I ain't no doctor and I ain't making any claims but........

Ok, from my research I've found that nitrites and nitrates are "added" to commercial processes in smoked meet in order to help the preservation process. (Read long shelf life at the supermarkets)

Sodium Nitrite is added (6%) to a cure/brine prior to the smoking process. The smoking process actually starts converting the nitrite into nitrate – the bad stuff.....however, the amount equates to ¼ ounce per 100lbs of meat! In my opinion, really to low to cause any concerns unless you eat it non-stop/every day, but who buys that much smoked stuff at the store anyway?

So.........since I use sea salt (98% sodium chloride) and sea salt does not contain nitrites, I'm not getting nitrites in my smoking process.

The cancer stuff we've been reading about refers to commercially smoked and available meats/fish/sausages....

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!

trout · May 25, 2004, 02:39:50 AM

Fuzzy, actually I believe you have it backwards. Almost all cures now use only sodium nitrite. Sodium nitrate was used on meats that were cured over a very long period of time because: sodium nitrate gradually over time changes to nitrite thus it is like a timed release sodium nitrite over a long period of curing. If a piece of meat is cured over long enough time, no nitrate will remain. The meat will only contain nitrite. As far as sea salt goes, it won't prevent botulism in smoked sausage, so use at your own risk. Anyone looking for info on this subject should read Rytec Kutas's sausage making book. You would be suprised how much more nitrites are contained in vegetables you eat everyday than there is in summer sausage.[;)]

Let your trout go and smoke a salmon instead.

Chez Bubba · May 25, 2004, 03:42:38 AM

What I want to know is: Why do they have to name the two substances so closely the same so that I have to really pay attention in any discussion about them?[:D][:D]

My head hurts![:D]

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

whitetailfan · May 25, 2004, 05:28:06 PM

Yep, Trout nails it.

I meant to reply to this sooner, but I was out trying to catch a rainbow yesterday. It rained all weekend except for yesterday.

The book you are referring to is a wonderful read. It is the one I was trying to refer to in the thread about Canadian vs Peameal Bacon.

Prague powder #1 contains only Sodium Nitrite, and Prague #2 contains 1 part nitrite with 0.64 part nitrate, and PP#2 is used in long curing times in what he refers to as "dry cured" products I think - can't remember the exact words, but it does not refer to what you are all doing with buckboard bacon, it's specific only to sausage making.

As far as why they are named so closely, it has do to the chemical composition of the two substances. Now 10 years ago I could tell you exactly what the difference is, but when you don't use your knowledge, you lose it[:(] I know where I can look this up, and I'll get back to you in a day or two.

Edit: percentage of nitrite/nitrate in prague #2 - formerly read half/half.

whitetailfan
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB

MallardWacker · May 25, 2004, 05:44:09 PM

Trout or White,

Have you seen that book anywhere lately?

SmokeOn,

mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know. But...

BrentK · May 25, 2004, 06:34:52 PM

Good Afternoon,

The book "Great Sausage Recipes & Meat Curing" is available from www.sausagemaker.com for $29.99. I have the book because,not only is it a good recipe / referance book, but also because that is the other brand of smoker I have. The book talks extensively about curing, brining,cold smoking,etc. Its a good book....the smoker leaves a little to be desired.

The salmon goes on the smoker on Thursday....if its not raining.[:)]

whitetailfan · May 25, 2004, 10:40:55 PM

Ya Brent, that is the book - Great Sausage Recipes & Meat Curing. My copy was borrowed from my Dad and I'm sure it's the first edition.

It was reading passages from that book, that spurred on my earlier questions in the curing topic. I knew that I needed info on properly curing meat, but since the book was boxed up in my move last fall, I did not have it to read until sometime this month when I found it again.

Also re: Sodium Nitrite vs Sodium Nitrate, they are NaNO2 and NaNO3 respectively. I used to know the rule for naming compunds "ate" versus "ite" but it still eludes me. (I said I get back about this one regarding why they are named so closely)

whitetailfan
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB

Fuzzybear · May 26, 2004, 04:07:18 PM

Backwards huh? I am under the impression that using sodium nitrate will cause the problems....in my homemade cures, I don't use sodium nitrate - it's sodium chloride........did I miss something?

Thanks!

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!

BrentK · May 26, 2004, 05:10:44 PM

Sodium Chloride = common table salt. According to the book you need to have a sufficient brine concentration when using salt only to cure meat. The USDA has determined that when using salt you need 7 pounds of salt to 100 pounds of meat. I just use the Instacure #1. for brine cured stuff. It already has the proper amount of Sodium Nitrite on a salt carrier pre-packaged. I use about 1 tsp to 5 pounds of meat. I hope this was helpful.

Its sunny and 60....the salmon goes on in 2 hours.[8D][8D]

Have a GREAT day!

whitetailfan · May 26, 2004, 05:19:53 PM

Fuzz,
You are not wrong about the nitrate, that is what causes the nitrosamines. Here is an article I have linked that is pretty good at describing this.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html

The only part that trout said was backward, was the conversion of nitrite to nitrate. It is nitrate NaNO3 that breaks down to nitrite NaNO2.

The main reason that nitrates are not allowed except in a few instances is that they are the principal cause of nitrosamines when you fry bacon at high temperatures, however I understand that nitrites can do the same. Commercially prepared meats also now must include ascorbic?? acid - vitamin C, which apparently helps to block the production of nitrosamines.

The combination of salt (sodium chloride) and prague powder (sodium nitrite) are the most effective team in inhibiting the growth of botulism. Salt alone will not do it. It is the nitrite that causes the pigment change in meat, not the chloride - if you cured a piece of pork with salt alone, it is my guess that you would have a salty piece of meat that would come out it's naturally cooked color. When you smoke something with nitrite in it, you obtain the pink/red color of ham or bacon.

I'm no scientist but my conclusion is that you do not have the risk of producing the carcinogenic agents, as you do not use any nitrites. Therefore you are correct in your comments.[:)]

The "but" I am going to add, is that you are probably only using your salt brines for fish. If you are going to achieve the desired coloring of bacon or ham, you have to use nitrite. If you are going to obtain the proper color of smoked (not fresh) sausage, you have to use nitrite. Also the use of the nitrite in the sausage is important for botulism food poisoning, so I would not make any myself without it.

Hope this helps everyone a little. As stated I'm no scientist, so don't take my comments for gospel, it's just a summary of all the sources I have read.

whitetailfan
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB

BrentK · May 26, 2004, 09:14:42 PM

WTF

So help me out here. Page 22 of the 3rd Edition in the book says "The Department is aware that some consumers have expressed a desire to purchase products cured solely with salt(sodium chloride) be included in the list of approved curing agents. Such would be for salt-cured products with sufficient brine concentration, or a water level such that Clostridium Botulinun will not grow. Based upon current information, the Department believes the finished product should have a minimum brine concentration of 10%. This brine concentration can usually be attained by using 7 pounds salt per 100 pounds of meat."

Don't take me wrong here... I'm not trying to be argumentative...I'm just trying to learn. And the 3rd edition is from 1999 is it is nearly 5 years old. So...is salt brine "ok" for fish but not for meat[?]

Thanks for your time and one more clarification.

BrentK
Grand Forks, ND

Chez Bubba · May 27, 2004, 05:24:49 AM

Good God! My head hurts even more. Somebody please bring this discussion down to an Emeril level![:D][:D]

http://www.chezbubba.com
Ya think next time I check into a hotel & they ask "Smoking or Non?" they would mind?

Fuzzybear · May 27, 2004, 02:23:55 PM

Ok, Kirk...I'll do it!

How'd the salmon turn out? What type of cure?

"A mans got to know his limitations"
Glendora, CA - USA!

BrentK · May 27, 2004, 03:29:27 PM

Chez,

If you did'nt get up so early in the morning your head would'nt hurt so much[;)]

The salmon had to wait until today. Kummok's recipe.

Have a nice weekend.

BrentK
Grand Forks, ND

whitetailfan · May 27, 2004, 04:12:15 PM

OK, I concede to Chez and BrentK[:I]

Chez - I was trying to get down to the chemistry of the curing process for learning sake, but it's getting over my head and I cannot make any statements as FACT, so I'll quit here. I'm only regergitating what I've read, and my chemistry education ceased in my first year of university, so I ain't the expert[:D] From now on I'm gonna stick to recipes, and whatever they call for as a cure will be quoted.

Brent - yes you are correct in your quote from GSR&MC apparently salt alone in the right quantity is sufficient in retarding the growth of botulism. I have no idea what salt's properties are like in dealing with rancidity ie to quote FuzzyBear "read long shelf life".

As you are aware I frequent the curing section, and have made two past threads dealing with cure and my lack of knowledge in this area, so I am glad this discussion came about! Hopefully it has helped some readers who are currently where I was 3 months ago.[;)]

In summary:
a)Salt does help to suppress botulism and makes me feel better about some of the recipes that are out there.
b)There are plenty of pre-made cures (tenderquik for example) that are pre-mixed with the appropriate levels of nitrites.
c)You can cure meat without it, but you will not achieve the color or flavour of bacon/ham etc without nitrites.

whitetailfan
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB