New kid on block with no idea

Buckshot · January 04, 2005, 05:34:40 PM

Hi i have just recieved a nice new smoker for xmas and have little idea what i am doing. I have started to read the forum, what a great place [:)].I have smoked a couple of chicken and pheasents. turned out great with a light smoked flavour. I covered both with olive oil, honey and a little orregano. and oak smoked for 2.5 hours. But the skin did not crisp up,could some one explain why[?] please. There seems to be a large number of cures out there, are they all shop bought?. They dont sell anything like that over here in the UK, so will have to make my own cure. I would be greatful for any help in the right direction. Thanks Buckshot [:D]

Habanero Smoker · January 04, 2005, 08:03:43 PM

This site will explain why it is difficult to get crisp skin when you cook low and slow http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/chicken4.html . There are other theories out there, but I accept this one as the best explaination. Air drying the skin in the refrigerator helps some, and keeping your vent at least a 1/4 open to let most of the moisture escape is also useful.

When you speak of cures, are you talking about what us "Yanks" call brine, or curing meats with salts and/or nitrites.

Buckshot · January 04, 2005, 09:11:12 PM

thanks for the reply i will look it up now. There seems to be a lot of talk about various rubs and brines especialy BBB cure. These are not available in the Uk. so i would like to find some recipes for these.

Habanero Smoker · January 04, 2005, 10:30:10 PM

The recipes for rubs, and brine that are posted on this board are home made, but there are commercial rubs out there. What you season your meat and poultry with is a personal choice. What you are doing with olive oil, honey and oregano looks pretty good, and I may give that a try myself. A recipe book called Smoke & Spice, by Cheryl and Bill Jamison has a lot of rub recipes, and some other useful information.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

Oldman · January 05, 2005, 02:47:29 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But the skin did not crisp up,could some one explain why[?]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't understand this. Maybe it is the way I hold my mouth or something. The chicken below was done with the T-Shirt Method and if I remember correctly I just turned up the heat and remove it from the T-shirt the last 20-30 minutes or so.

The only thing I can think of was I used yellow skin chickens that have much-O fat in the skin. These came from Publix which has the greasiest yellow skin chicken you will ever see in your life. In fact, it takes some real hot water and a fair amount of dish soap to get the grease off of your hands.

White skin chicken = no or little fat. This is why most fast food chicken places only purchase white skin birds when possible. This is to reduce the free fatty acid in the cooking shortening--which will shorten the life of the shortening.

Its been awhile since I did any chicken so I will do a couple later this week and take a picture. Maybe I should do one white skin and one yellow skin chicken... ummm

One more thought and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the fat does not start to render out until it gets to 170 degrees F. I do my bird at a cooking temp of 190-195 give or take a few. This is a slow cook that allows a more even cooking of all meat. Plus I would think the heat caloris are not so over powering, due to the lower temp, allowing a cook of the whole bird more evenly. Once the breast of a bird gets to 160 degrees is when I turn up the heat etc..

Umm Kind of like a Prime Rib. You can cook it very hot and the outside will be well done but the very center rare also. Or you can cooked much slower and it is possible that the whole thing will be rare.

I remember the skin on this bird being very crisp.. Yepper I will do some chickens and report back.
Olds

http://rminor.com

JJC · January 05, 2005, 05:51:17 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buckshot
 Hi i have just recieved a nice new smoker for xmas and have little idea what i am doing. I have started to read the forum, what a great place [:)].I have smoked a couple of chicken and pheasents. turned out great with a light smoked flavour. I covered both with olive oil, honey and a little orregano. and oak smoked for 2.5 hours. But the skin did not crisp up,could some one explain why[?] please. There seems to be a large number of cures out there, are they all shop bought?. They dont sell anything like that over here in the UK, so will have to make my own cure. I would be greatful for any help in the right direction. Thanks Buckshot [:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Welcome to the forum, Guy! See the reply from Olds for more info. I just did a turkey this Christmas. Brined overnight in the frig, then air-dried the turkey in the frig for another day to dry out the skin. Cooked at 190-200 using the now-famous Olds T-shirt method, with the vent 1/2 open. Did not turn up the heat, and the skin was pretty crisp (although by the picture, Olds' might be even crispier . . .).

John
Newton MA

JJC · January 05, 2005, 05:57:26 AM

[/quote]Maybe I should do one white skin and one yellow skin chicken

One more thought and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the fat does not start to render out until it gets to 170 degrees F.
[/quote]
Hey Olds--you're sounding more and more like a scientist![:)]

You're right in general about the fat, although it does depend on not just the species of animal, but what it's been eating and what temp it was living at for the few days before it was slaughtered. I think the range can be 160-180, so 170 is smack in the middle, and 190+ should be safe in getting the fat out.

John
Newton MA

Habanero Smoker · January 05, 2005, 11:42:34 AM

Here is another explaination of the difficulties of getting crisp skin while cooking at low temperatures.

Food chemist Harold McGee explains the difficulty of getting crisp skin as follows:
"The skin of birds and other animals is mainly water (about 50%), fat (40%), and connective-tissue (3%). In order to crisp the skin, the cook must dissolve the leather collagen into tender gelatin in the skin's water, and then vaporize the water out of the skin. The high heat of a hot oven or frying pan does this most effectively; slow cooking at a low oven temperature can desiccate (dry out) the skin while its collagen is intact, and preserve its leatheriness.....It also helps to let the bird air-dry uncovered in a the refrigerator for a day or two."

I don't cook my chickens that well done. If I'm doing whole chickens, I will pull at 165 degrees F, measured at the thickess part of the thigh. My chickens look like that also, but I can't say the skin is crisp. Maybe crispness is relative to each individual person.

JJC · January 05, 2005, 01:39:09 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Habanero Smoker
 Here is another explaination of the difficulties of getting crisp skin while cooking at low temperatures.

Food chemist Harold McGee explains the difficulty of getting crisp skin as follows:
"The skin of birds and other animals is mainly water (about 50%), fat (40%), and connective-tissue (3%). In order to crisp the skin, the cook must dissolve the leather collagen into tender gelatin in the skin's water, and then vaporize the water out of the skin. The high heat of a hot oven or frying pan does this most effectively; slow cooking at a low oven temperature can desiccate (dry out) the skin while its collagen is intact, and preserve its leatheriness.....It also helps to let the bird air-dry uncovered in a the refrigerator for a day or two."

I don't cook my chickens that well done. If I'm doing whole chickens, I will pull at 165 degrees F, measured at the thickess part of the thigh. My chickens look like that also, but I can't say the skin is crisp. Maybe crispness is relative to each individual person.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Habanero,

Can you tell me where the quote comes from? The explanation seems very incomplete to me from a biochemical/tissue architecture standpoint and I'm wondering if there is more that he wrote on the topic. I'll be happy to check it out and get back to you . . .

John
Newton MA

Habanero Smoker · January 05, 2005, 04:57:11 PM

It's not the only thing he wrote on biochemical/tissue architecture standpoint. I was taking one section out of his book "On Food and Cooking; The Science and Lore of The Kitchen - Completely Revised and Updated; page 160. This is only a small referrence on The Keys to Crisp Skin. I have his book.

What would you say was incomplete about it?

MallardWacker · January 05, 2005, 05:57:11 PM

I agree that you can't get a "Freid Chicken" type crisp, although you can get a, I would say a crisp skin that lends itself more to the crispy side than the "rubbery" by doing what Olds said.

About 158 internal or so: open the vent and crank the heat all the way up untill you have your finished internal temp. If you leave the vent mostly closed you could get a "rubbery skin" product. Just my 2.3cents worth on a rainy afternoon.

USC SUCKS CANAL WATER!

SmokeOn,

mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know. But...

JJC · January 06, 2005, 02:30:56 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Habanero Smoker
 It's not the only thing he wrote on biochemical/tissue architecture standpoint. I was taking one section out of his book "On Food and Cooking; The Science and Lore of The Kitchen - Completely Revised and Updated; page 160. This is only a small referrence on The Keys to Crisp Skin. I have his book.

What would you say was incomplete about it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Habanero,

The incomplete reference was to the quote focusing on the biochemical composition of skin. The range of chemical composition of both bird and mammmal skin is enormous, and the interaction between fat, water , complex sugars and protein is very important in determining "turgidity" (rubbery vs. watery vs. crisp, for example). So the explanation seemed overly simplistic, but not incorrect.

Having said that, I looked into this a bit more because you had piqued my curiosity. McGee is very well trained and highly regarded. My reaction was one who has studied the biochemistry of cell and tissue architecture for 30 years, and that is not the audience he is addressing. Ironically, I heard him do an extended interview on NPR just a couple of hours ago, and he was very impressive as well as accurate.

Hope I didn't sound disparaging or negative in my previous remarks--McGee is obviously smart and has much more to contribute on food chemistry than I could ever hope to. I think my main point is that often there is more to the science than meets the eye . . .

BTW, I plan to pick up his new book, so thanks for tipping me off!

John
Newton MA

JJC · January 06, 2005, 02:34:42 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MallardWacker
 I agree that you can't get a "Freid Chicken" type crisp, although you can get a, I would say a crisp skin that lends itself more to the crispy side than the "rubbery" by doing what Olds said.

About 158 internal or so: open the vent and crank the heat all the way up untill you have your finished internal temp. If you leave the vent mostly closed you could get a "rubbery skin" product. Just my 2.3cents worth on a rainy afternoon.

USC SUCKS CANAL WATER!

SmokeOn,

mski
Perryville, Arkansas
Wooo-Pig-Soooie

If a man says he knows anything at all, he knows nothing what he aught to know. But...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Agreed (not about USC--I'm, ummm, neutral on that one . . .). I can get skins that are acceptably crisp when I smoke . . . they are not rubbery in any sense, but they are certaily not as crisp as when I fry the bird.

John
Newton MA

Habanero Smoker · January 06, 2005, 06:48:10 AM

JC2;
When I took a course at the Culinary Institute of America back in August, is when I became interested in the chemistry of cooking. They placed just as much emphasis on what was occuring during to the food, as to the preparation. They recommended his books, and I am glad I purchased it.

As there is often more to the science than meets the eye; there is often more than one point of view. Glad you are getting the book.

JJC · January 08, 2005, 03:01:19 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Habanero Smoker
 JC2;
When I took a course at the Culinary Institute of America back in August, is when I became interested in the chemistry of cooking. They placed just as much emphasis on what was occuring during to the food, as to the preparation. They recommended his books, and I am glad I purchased it.

As there is often more to the science than meets the eye; there is often more than one point of view. Glad you are getting the book.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well said, HS--and point well taken!

John
Newton MA