So here goes...Why do we put cure in some meats and not in others? I do a pork shoulder and it takes a long time internally to reach temp(technically it is in the danger zone?) yet we don't cure it. But a ham or pastrami or bacon we have to cure it because of the same concerns. I guess I just don't have a grasp on micro biology to understand why cures are needed for some and not others?
Quote from: Fernslinger on February 10, 2012, 11:09:31 AM
So here goes...Why do we put cure in some meats and not in others? I do a pork shoulder and it takes a long time internally to reach temp(technically it is in the danger zone?) yet we don't cure it. But a ham or pastrami or bacon we have to cure it because of the same concerns. I guess I just don't have a grasp on micro biology to understand why cures are needed for some and not others?
Yea its not rocket science like some make it out to be.
Some smokes start at 140 and below, like some sausage, jerky, bacon, hams, pastrami and the like.
Note: Cure does not kill bacteria or the nasty things can can make us sick.
Exactly, Like Rick mentioned its important to know the smoking temps you plan to use. For sausages and sticks the smokehouse temp is 130-170. Pork butts are 200-250 so are above the danger zone no matter how long it takes to finish.
It is not rocket science but it is nothing to be down played either. Cure does prevents many food borne bacteria form growing; especially botulism. On the other hand, I've seen recipes on this site that add a little amount of cure (for no reason that I can understand); thinking it is enough to protect the meat. So again it is not rocket science, but you need to have knowledge of what you are doing.
As you may have seen, there are some that cure bacon with salt only. This is not new, and members have been doing for years. Pastrami, and corned beef can be cured with salt only, but if you are looking for protection; quicker curing times, and a particular taste use a cure. As for pastrami, I never use a cabinet temperature less than 200°F; so the below 140° temperature is not always a factor. Both curing methods you have to know what you are doing. And if you are using a cure you have to know the proper amounts to use whether it is a dry or wet cure.
One thing about the danger zone you seem to misunderstand. For solid muscle meats, that only have the bacteria on the surface, the most important temperature is the surface of the meat. Since there is not bacteria in the center of the meat, you have more leeway as to when the internal temperature rises above 140°F.
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on February 10, 2012, 01:33:40 PMFor solid muscle meats, that only have the bacteria on the surface, the most important temperature is the surface of the meat. Since there is not bacteria in the center of the meat, you have more leeway as to when the internal temperature rises above 140°F.
I'm not smart about curing but I always thought that Hab's statement (above) was key to the need. My understanding is that if you don't turn the meat "inside out" (by grinding, etc.) and you heat steadily until it's cooked, a cure probably isn't required. Is that essentially correct or am I off base (and so far just very lucky)?
OBTW, you might want to save this post just so you can continue to enjoy one of the few times I ever admitted that I don't know everything.
LOL I always listen to Hab about cures! He is the most informed person I've ever heard talk on then. With all the amateurs and young book writers they get mixed up or miss informed. I agree cures are one off the best things that happened for this industry. And also one of the most misunderstood and dangerous topics we deal with on here.
Quote from: Ka Honu on February 10, 2012, 05:19:45 PM
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on February 10, 2012, 01:33:40 PMFor solid muscle meats, that only have the bacteria on the surface, the most important temperature is the surface of the meat. Since there is not bacteria in the center of the meat, you have more leeway as to when the internal temperature rises above 140°F.
I'm not smart about curing but I always thought that Hab's statement (above) was key to the need. My understanding is that if you don't turn the meat "inside out" (by grinding, etc.) and you heat steadily until it's cooked, a cure probably isn't required. Is that essentially correct or am I off base (and so far just very lucky)?
OBTW, you might want to save this post just so you can continue to enjoy one of the few times I ever admitted that I don't know everything.
You are correct about how grinding the meat spreads the bacteria throughout the meat. Partially correct about whole muscle, due to my lack of explanation. So your record is still intact. :) Sorry about the short explanation, but I was in a hurry to take pictures of the Popeye Cajun Turkey, and pack my kimchi in jars. :)
I should have taken more time to explain that part. If you are using a temperature of 200°F or more, which I assumed Fernslinger, since he was referring to his pork butt staying in the smoker a long time before the internal temperature reaches 140°F.
Most bacon is salt cured because there is a special problem with bacon and nitrite. A nitrosamine(causes cancer) is formed when frying and is apparently unique to bacon.
Can't under stand that as our body makes nitrates naturally.
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It has to do with the high frying temp. Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing ,Rytek Kutas 3rd edition, page 20.
Well looked it up and what you say is true. But... Salt and lots of foods contain nitrates as well as our body creating it. Even if we don't eat bacon any food with nitrates can cause it that we cook. Took this from a article.
The USDA now requires bacon processors to add antioxidants, such as vitamins C and E, which have been proven to inhibit nitrosamine formation. But if you're still worried, you can limit your intake by sticking with nitrate-free bacon products.
Now if we could find a correct amount we would be ok. LOL
I have worked in shops with PCb's, Played in the creek where we have the big myrex problem as a child and other things that cause cancer.Here is a list of other cancer foods. Don't know about you but i'll take my chances. I'm 59 and have done most of this my whole life. Also we can't live for ever,But we can enjoy living while were here. LOL
All charred food, which create heterocyclic aromatic amines, known carcinogens. Even dark toast is suspect.
Well-done red meat. Medium or rare is better, little or no red meat is best.
Sugar, both white and brown–which is simply white sugar with molasses added.
Heavily salted, smoked and pickled foods, which lead to higher rates of stomach cancer.
Sodas/soft drinks, which pose health risks, both for what they contain–sugar and various additives–and for what they replace in the diet–beverages and foods that provide vitamins, minerals and other nutrients.
French fries, chips and snack foods that contain trans fats.
Food and drink additives such as aspartame.
Excess alcohol.
Baked goods, for the acrylamide.
Farmed fish, which contains higher levels of toxins such as PCBs.
Viper, thanks for the extra info. I just wanted to put that out for general knowledge. The book was published in '07 and Rytek states that research continues. The vitamin C and E thing might be newer. I guess all you'd have to do is grind up a tablet of each and add it to your cure. ;D
I'm the same age as you and been in the construction trade all my life. No shortage of nasty chemicals there either. And......still enjoying life!
SS
ps. On the list of no-no's, did they quantify third from the bottom? ;)
Not sure either. But when some ones says some thing I like to know a little more of I goggle. Found it interesting. But over the years i have ate and done a lot that should give cancer or other things. We didn't know such things back then. Now milk and bread even potatoes are bad. How do they expect people our age to even take it seriously. in my opinion every body has different body makeups, Maybe some are destined to get cancer or other things at birth. My great grand mother in Kentucky chewed,smoked, ate pork and all kinds of bad things she was 104 and getting around better then me when she died.Explain that one! And i've heard the same thing from different people. I think the c and e might work. But a little late for me. LOL
Quote from: Salmonsmoker on February 11, 2012, 09:19:55 AM
Most bacon is salt cured because there is a special problem with bacon and nitrite. A nitrosamine(causes cancer) is formed when frying and is apparently unique to bacon.
Commercially you do not find that many choices of salt only cure bacon. Most commercial bacons use nitrites. If you follow the guidelines for parts per million (ppm) set by the USDA for bacon there will be very little residual nitrites remaining in the meat. Those remaining can produce nitrosamine, but way below safe amounts.
Even the so call natural bacons you need to look very closely at the label to find salt only cured. You may see a few nitrite free, or natural bacon, but if you check the ingredient celery juice, or celery concentrate may be listed, that contains a concentration of nitrates. Nitrates can be even more harmful in bacon, but since celery juice is not classified as a nitrate it can be used in curing bacon, without nitrate being listed. Nitrates tend to leave large amounts of residual nitrites, and the curing times are harder to judge. What you will not find is commercial bacon cured with nitrates.
Thanks Habs,
Another thing I just remembered is sea salt contains naturally occuring nitrite. I don't know what the concentration % is. I sure it's lower than the amount of cure #1 we use. A product containing sea salt would't list nitrite.
Quote"Often I've had people tell me that their grandparents didn't use cures when smoking meats, since some people feel cures are not necessary. Would a person so young really know what his grandparents were doing? Probably not. Or better still, back in the good ol' days, how many people died of natural causes? An excuse a physician would give you when he couldn't diagnose why the person died, no matter how old or young the patient was, was that the cause was "natural". Fortunately for us the physician today can easily diagnose food poisoning problems, and this book was written to help avoid them."
Reference: Great Sausage Recipes And Meat Curing by Rytek Kutas
Lol still using natural causes. Their is a reason the call them practitioners.
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Well, the wheels flew off of this wagon rather quickly! ::)
My Kutas book is out on loan, but I kind of remember that statement. It was about how some state how there ancestors never used a cure, and lived to be of old age. I like that book, but like most sources not everything is 100% accurate. For example, the statement that it is easy to diagnose food poising is wrong. I have several family members who are EMT's, RN's and LPN's, and they tell me it is almost impossible to diagnose most food passioning accurately. It symptoms are so much like the flu, or several other illnesses, that you need to have several people who have eaten from the same source to become ill. Most people who come down with food poisoning often think they have a flu or stomach virus. I also feel his statement that if you smoke it you must cure it, is not 100% accurate. A third issue I have with his book, is that his amounts of cure he uses to cure meat are on the high end.
I feel this is one of those threads, that not matter what is stated, some are going to read into what they want.
Quote from: Salmonsmoker on February 11, 2012, 05:22:48 PM
Thanks Habs,
Another thing I just remembered is sea salt contains naturally occuring nitrite. I don't know what the concentration % is. I sure it's lower than the amount of cure #1 we use. A product containing sea salt would't list nitrite.
What every amount of nitrite or nitrates your sea salt contains will be negligible. Concentrated celery juice is different. Compared to most plants it has a high level of nitrates. It is so high that you can purchase celery powder to use as a curing agent. It is suppose to be a natural way to cure your meat, but my position is nitrates are nitrates; whether they are natural or synthetic.
Didn't mean any thing negative here. It's simply all my life Ive hear of nitrates and nitrite and every thing else MAY KILL YOU. Even the things considered healthy by one group is unhealthy by another. Now I Know nitrates and nitrites can be dangerous. But like said is made naturally in body and other foods and plants. So you can not avoid them. I'm one of those that remember my grand father doing it. I remember he used mostly salt and smoke. Some also used salt peter and that. But my grand father didn't. My grandma was full blooded Cherokee and grand pa was half. They were true hillbillys. No trusting completely in others ways. Salt and sugar and smoke was their way. What they could do with roots and berrys would spin your head. But thats another story. LOL I was old enough to remember,just wish I had been smart enough to been more interested then.
Jeeezus
I must be dead?
(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab242/nepas1/new/Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif)
My intent wasn't to make the wheels fall off the wagon. I was just trying to add information to Fernslinger's question. I use cure #1 and 2. Naturally occuring and produced nitrite are chemically identical. I didn't know that celery juice had high concentrations of nitrate. So there you go... I passed on a little information and got some back. ;D
Me either! I appreciate the info. I am not as knowledgeable as I would like to be on cures. But some times I don't respond or ask because
People think I'm arguing or being negative to what they say. But you can be sure that's not the case. I for one don't nor ever will know it all. Hell I forget more in a day then I ever learn i a month. LOL
Oh by the way! If any one ever thinks so please email me! I SURE DONT MEAN TO OFFEND.
Quote from: viper125 on February 12, 2012, 10:45:30 AM
Me either! I appreciate the info. I am not as knowledgeable as I would like to be on cures. But some times I don't respond or ask because
People think I'm arguing or being negative to what they say. But you can be sure that's not the case. I for one don't nor ever will know it all. Hell I forget more in a day then I ever learn i a month. LOL
I never took it that you or Salmonsmoker were being negative. The forum is for discussion.
Glad to see everyone is still alive and kicking.
In my learning curve I have done some pretty dumb things with cure #1. I even went as far as to post a recipe with not the recommended amount of cure for which I got a new a** hole ripped out from 10.5. He was right for giving me heck and since then I make sure if I post anything with cure it is with in the recommended amounts. Why put your family and friends at risk for a hobby?? There are good books out there for standards and Rytek Kutas one of them.
LOL Yea Hab and him both got me. But always glad some one catches my mistakes. Not that i ever make any! LOL
I always knew about the whole muscle thing and bacteria being on the outside. I wasnt putting the cure being needed with the low cabinet temps of the smoker....
You guys are great. Thanks for the info.