Maybe a silly question...

[Fernslinger]

So here goes...Why do we put cure in some meats and not in others? I do a pork shoulder and it takes a long time internally to reach temp(technically it is in the danger zone?) yet we don't cure it. But a ham or pastrami or bacon we have to cure it because of the same concerns. I guess I just don't have a grasp on micro biology to understand why cures are needed for some and not others?

[NePaSmoKer]

So here goes...Why do we put cure in some meats and not in others? I do a pork shoulder and it takes a long time internally to reach temp(technically it is in the danger zone?) yet we don't cure it. But a ham or pastrami or bacon we have to cure it because of the same concerns. I guess I just don't have a grasp on micro biology to understand why cures are needed for some and not others?

Yea its not rocket science like some make it out to be.

Some smokes start at 140 and below, like some sausage, jerky, bacon, hams, pastrami and the like.

Note: Cure does not kill bacteria or the nasty things can can make us sick.

[pensrock]

Exactly, Like Rick mentioned its important to know the smoking temps you plan to use. For sausages and sticks the smokehouse temp is 130-170. Pork butts are 200-250 so are above the danger zone no matter how long it takes to finish.

[Habanero Smoker]

It is not rocket science but it is nothing to be down played either. Cure does prevents many food borne bacteria form growing; especially botulism. On the other hand, I've seen  recipes on this site that add a little amount of cure (for no reason that I can understand); thinking it is enough to protect the meat. So again it is not rocket science, but you need to have knowledge of what you are doing.

As you may have seen, there are some that cure bacon with salt only. This is not new, and members have been doing for years. Pastrami, and corned beef can be cured with salt only, but if you are looking for protection; quicker curing times, and a particular taste use a cure. As for pastrami, I never use a cabinet temperature less than 200°F; so the below 140° temperature is not always a factor. Both curing methods you have to know what you are doing. And if you are using a cure you have to know the proper amounts to use whether it is a dry or wet cure.

One thing about the danger zone you seem to misunderstand. For solid muscle meats, that only have the bacteria on the surface, the most important temperature is the surface of the meat. Since there is not bacteria in the center of the meat, you have more leeway as to when the internal temperature rises above 140°F.

[Ka Honu]

For solid muscle meats, that only have the bacteria on the surface, the most important temperature is the surface of the meat. Since there is not bacteria in the center of the meat, you have more leeway as to when the internal temperature rises above 140°F.

I'm not smart about curing but I always thought that Hab's statement (above) was key to the need. My understanding is that if you don't turn the meat "inside out" (by grinding, etc.) and you heat steadily until it's cooked, a cure probably isn't required.  Is that essentially correct or am I off base (and so far just very lucky)?


OBTW, you might want to save this post just so you can continue to enjoy one of the few times I ever admitted that I don't know everything.

[viper125]

LOL I always listen to Hab about cures! He is the most informed  person I've ever heard talk on then. With all the amateurs and young book writers they get mixed up or miss informed. I agree cures are one off the best things that happened for this industry. And also one of the most misunderstood and dangerous topics we deal with on here.

[Habanero Smoker]

For solid muscle meats, that only have the bacteria on the surface, the most important temperature is the surface of the meat. Since there is not bacteria in the center of the meat, you have more leeway as to when the internal temperature rises above 140°F.

I'm not smart about curing but I always thought that Hab's statement (above) was key to the need. My understanding is that if you don't turn the meat "inside out" (by grinding, etc.) and you heat steadily until it's cooked, a cure probably isn't required.  Is that essentially correct or am I off base (and so far just very lucky)?


OBTW, you might want to save this post just so you can continue to enjoy one of the few times I ever admitted that I don't know everything.

You are correct about how grinding the meat spreads the bacteria throughout the meat. Partially correct about whole muscle, due to my lack of explanation. So your record is still intact.  :)  Sorry about the short explanation, but I was in a hurry to take pictures of the Popeye Cajun Turkey, and pack my kimchi in jars.  :)

I should have taken more time to explain that part. If you are using a temperature of 200°F or more, which I assumed Fernslinger, since he was referring to his pork butt staying in the smoker a long time before the internal temperature reaches 140°F.

[Salmonsmoker]

 Most bacon is salt cured because there is a special problem with bacon and nitrite. A nitrosamine(causes cancer) is formed when frying and is apparently unique to bacon.

[viper125]

Can't under stand that as our body makes nitrates naturally.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Salmonsmoker]

It has to do with the high frying temp. Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing ,Rytek Kutas 3rd edition, page 20.

[viper125]

Well looked it up and what you say is true. But... Salt and lots of foods contain nitrates as well as our body creating it. Even if we don't eat bacon any food with nitrates can cause it that we cook. Took this from a article.
The USDA now requires bacon processors to add antioxidants, such as vitamins C and E, which have been proven to inhibit nitrosamine formation. But if you're still worried, you can limit your intake by sticking with nitrate-free bacon products.
Now if we could find a correct amount we would be ok. LOL
I have worked in shops with PCb's, Played in the creek where we have the big myrex problem as a child and other things that cause cancer.Here is a list of other cancer foods. Don't know about you but i'll take my chances. I'm 59 and have done most of this my whole life. Also we can't live for ever,But we can enjoy living while were here. LOL

All charred food, which create heterocyclic aromatic amines, known carcinogens. Even dark toast is suspect.
Well-done red meat. Medium or rare is better, little or no red meat is best.
Sugar, both white and brown–which is simply white sugar with molasses added.
Heavily salted, smoked and pickled foods, which lead to higher rates of stomach cancer.
Sodas/soft drinks, which pose health risks, both for what they contain–sugar and various additives–and for what they replace in the diet–beverages and foods that provide vitamins, minerals and other nutrients.
French fries, chips and snack foods that contain trans fats.
Food and drink additives such as aspartame.
Excess alcohol.
Baked goods, for the acrylamide.
Farmed fish, which contains higher levels of toxins such as PCBs.

[Salmonsmoker]

Viper, thanks for the extra info. I just wanted to put that out for general knowledge. The book was published in '07 and Rytek states that research continues. The vitamin C and E thing might be newer. I guess all you'd have to do is grind up a tablet of each and add it to your cure. ;D
I'm the same age as you and been in the construction trade all my life. No shortage of nasty chemicals there either. And......still enjoying life!

SS

ps. On the list of no-no's, did they quantify third from the bottom? ;)

[viper125]

Not sure either. But when some ones says some thing I like to know a little more of I goggle. Found it interesting. But over the years i have ate and done a lot that should give cancer or other things. We didn't know such things back then. Now milk and bread even potatoes are bad. How do they expect people our age to even take it seriously. in my opinion every body has different body makeups, Maybe some are destined to get cancer or other things at birth. My great grand mother in Kentucky chewed,smoked, ate pork and all kinds of bad things she was 104 and getting around better then me when she died.Explain that one! And i've heard the same thing from different people. I think the c and e might work. But a little late for me. LOL

[Habanero Smoker]

Most bacon is salt cured because there is a special problem with bacon and nitrite. A nitrosamine(causes cancer) is formed when frying and is apparently unique to bacon.

Commercially you do not find that many choices of salt only cure bacon. Most commercial bacons use nitrites. If you follow the guidelines for parts per million (ppm) set by the USDA for bacon there will be very little residual nitrites remaining in the meat. Those remaining can produce nitrosamine, but way below safe amounts.

Even the so call natural bacons you need to look very closely at the label to find salt only cured. You may see a few nitrite free, or natural bacon, but if you check the ingredient celery juice, or celery concentrate may be listed, that contains a concentration of nitrates. Nitrates can be even more harmful in bacon, but since celery juice is not classified as a nitrate it can be used in curing bacon, without nitrate being listed. Nitrates tend to leave large amounts of residual nitrites, and the curing times are harder to judge. What you will not find is commercial bacon cured with nitrates.

[Salmonsmoker]

Thanks Habs,

Another thing I just remembered is sea salt contains naturally occuring nitrite. I don't know what the concentration % is. I sure it's lower than the amount of cure #1 we use. A product containing sea salt would't list nitrite.