BRADLEY SMOKER | "Taste the Great Outdoors"

Bradley Smokers => The Black Bradley Smoker (BTIS1) => Topic started by: Oldman on April 02, 2008, 04:01:23 PM

Title: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Oldman on April 02, 2008, 04:01:23 PM
Prize a portable grill supplied by Iceman. Freight paid for by Olds. This contest is open to all no matter where you live in the world.

Simple rules just answer the following questions:
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?
2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?
5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)

Now the person to answer the most questions correctly wins the grill.

In case of a tie we will have a run off.

Iceman / Olds...

Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: iceman on April 02, 2008, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: Oldman on April 02, 2008, 04:01:23 PM
Prize a portable grill supplied by Iceman. Freight paid for by Olds. This contest is open to all no matter where you live in the world.

Simple rules just answer the following questions:
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?
2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?
5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)

Now the person to answer the most questions correctly wins the grill.

In case of a tie we will have a run off.

Iceman / Olds



I'll post pictures of the grill in the next day or two. Comes with a set of grill tools also. Good luck folks.

I think Olds wanted the answers posted here and not as a PM to me. Please repost your PM's to this thread. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Consiglieri on April 02, 2008, 04:36:20 PM
I take it we PM the answers?
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Ontrack on April 02, 2008, 05:49:50 PM
I know the answer to 3 questions. To save some brain cells and research time, I'll tell you the answer to question #6 (868), wish you all luck, and tip my hat to the winner ;D.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: NePaSmoKer on April 02, 2008, 06:40:14 PM
Quote from: Oldman on April 02, 2008, 04:01:23 PM
Prize a portable grill supplied by Iceman. Freight paid for by Olds. This contest is open to all no matter where you live in the world.

Simple rules just answer the following questions:
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?
2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?
5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)

Now the person to answer the most questions correctly wins the grill.

In case of a tie we will have a run off.

Iceman / Olds



My answers.

1. Its an optical illusion. The moon dont change. Trees and mountains make it look bigger than it does overhead.
2. Tomatoe leaves have alot of alkaloids in them and not good to eat raw.
3. Ray owns the site. Susan owns the recipes................somthing like that
4. Where is number 4?............................................................I WIN  LOL  :D  :D  ;D
5. Un ripe pineapples are bitter like a persimon..... not toxic.
6. I pick 647

nepas
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: iceman on April 02, 2008, 07:33:44 PM
Post answers to this thread and not a PM to me or Olds. Thanks folks and I love the response so far.  :)
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Mr Walleye on April 02, 2008, 07:37:36 PM
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?
The Moon illusion is a visual illusion (optical illusion) in which the Moon appears larger near the horizon than it does while higher up in the sky. This visual illusion also occurs with the Sun and star constellations; it is also known as the celestial illusion.

2. Are tomato leaves ever added to a salad?
No. Tomato leaves and stems are poisonous.

3. Two part question:
- Who owns the recipes on the recipe site?
The recipes are a collection of the best tried and true recipes of the various members of both the Bradley Forum and the Old's Recipe Site.
- Who owns the recipe site?
Susan Minor.

4. It's gone.......  :o

5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? The pineapple (ananas comosus) is a bromeliad; in fact, one of the few in its family that is edible. However, the fruit of an unripe pineapple is poisonous and will irritate both your mouth and throat.

6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000.
My number is 97.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Arcs_n_Sparks on April 02, 2008, 08:05:06 PM
1. Atmosphere acts as a magnifying lens over the slant distances associated with the horizon.
2. No. Contains glycoalkaloids, which are toxic.
3. Unless copyrighted, no one owns the receipes on the site. I vote for Susan Minor owning the site.
4.
5. I'd say not toxic, but does contain enzymes that may trigger reactions in some people.
6. 825

Arcin' & Sparkin'
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Habanero Smoker on April 03, 2008, 04:29:13 AM
As others have already posted.

1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?
This is an optical illusion, which cannot be captured by camera. The brain is misinterpreting what the eye is seeing. Foreground objects trick your brain into thinking the moon is bigger than it really is.

2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no; explain your answer.
No. Tomatoes are part of the Nightshade family, and the leaves are toxic.


3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?
I'll be safe and use a round about answer. As Raye has often posted the recipe site belongs to the members. Thoough Raye generously uses his own money and time to maintain it. The URL was named for his wife Susan.

The recipes are submitted by individual members, but once posted they are public domain.

5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
Yes. When unripe, the pineapple is inedible and poisonous, irritating the throat and acts as a drastic laxative. This seems to be caused the enzyme Bromeliain which is a natural food tenderizer and anticoagulant. I could not determine why this is more poisonous in unripen pineapple as opposed to ripen. My guess would be this enzyme is more concentrated in unripen pineapple fruit, and later this enzyme concentrates itself in the stem.


6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)
849

Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: manxman on April 03, 2008, 06:05:34 AM
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?

This is an optical illusion, due to visualising the moon against terrain nearer the horizon compared to viewing it against just sky.

2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.

No, they are not. The leaves contain tomatine, an alkyloid which can affect the nervous system, part of the "nightshade" family.

3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?

No one and everyone owns the recipes themselves; whilst the recipe site itself is on Susan's URL it is "owned" by all the members courtesy of Raye and Susan, who actually pay for it!!

5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.

Unripe pineapples are used by some cultures cooked in curries etc but generally the juices of unripe pineaples are regarded at toxic. Unripe pineapples have been used to treat VD amongst other things!  ;) :D

Unripe (raw) pineapples can cause violent diarrhoea etc.

It is the bromelain in ripe pineapples that tenderises them and is used medicinally on occasions. This enzyme alters the "bad" juices of unripe pineapples.

6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)

666... "the number of the beast"


Thanks to Pat and Raye for coming up with this contest.  :)
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Buck36 on April 03, 2008, 07:00:30 AM
1)   The moon's size never changes - rather it is an optical illusion. It stems from the brain's habit of calculating the dimensions of the unfamiliar by comparing them with the size of the familiar. When the moon is setting/rising, it is low in the horizon and among an abundance of buildings, trees and houses. When the brain compares the sizes of moon and the buildings, the moon is bigger and thus appears huge to the mind's eye. Directly overhead however, there is nothing to contrast the moon to but the infinite sky. Even clouds are generally bigger, so the size of the moon mentally shrinks.

2)   Because tomato leaves have a pronounced fresh-tomato aroma thanks to their leaf enzymes and prominent aromatic oil glands, some cooks add a few leaves to restore its fresh notes

3)   I would assume the person posting the recipe gets credit since the website states they claim no ownership or copyright to any recipe. The site is powered by Vbulletin and is owned by Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

4)   The juice from unripe pineapples can act as a violent purgative. Reported adverse effects from bromelain include diarrhea, menorrhagia, nausea, skin rash, and vomiting.

5)   #36
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Tiny Tim on April 03, 2008, 07:47:13 AM
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?

An effect known as the "Ponzo Illusion".  We're used to seeing clouds just a few miles above us, but the clouds on the horizon can be hundreds of miles away, creating a flatter visual orbit than the actual orbit of the Moon around the Earth.

2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.

No.  Solanine, the main toxin in tomatoes, will make humans very sick.  Plus they're icky. :D

3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?

Since they are not copyrighted, nobody actually owns the recipes.  They can be used by anybody who finds them.  The site is owned by Susan Minor.

5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.

Yes.  Unripe pineapple is not only inedible, it is poisonous, causing throat irritation and severe vomiting and diarrhea.

6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)

233
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: iceman on April 03, 2008, 06:42:28 PM
Here ya go folks. Take a look at what's up for grabs. Sorry for the delay. Click on the pictures to enlarge.  ;D

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/th_Toolboxgrill3.jpg) (http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/Toolboxgrill3.jpg)

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/th_Toolboxgrill2.jpg) (http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/Toolboxgrill2.jpg)

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/th_Toolboxgrill1.jpg) (http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/Toolboxgrill1.jpg)

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/th_Toolboxgrill.jpg) (http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/olepop/Toolboxgrill.jpg)
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: West Coast Kansan on April 03, 2008, 08:19:24 PM
I would just drop an A and call it 50/50.

VERY SWEET GRILL!!!
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Mr Walleye on April 03, 2008, 10:13:52 PM
Great lookin' portable grill Ice 'n Olds!  8)

That puppy would look great at a few fishing tournaments this year!  ;)

:D  :D  ;D

Mike
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Habanero Smoker on April 04, 2008, 02:17:47 AM
Wow!! That is a unique grill. My brother does a lot of indoor construction. He could take that into the building without any suspicion, find a vacant room and have an indoor BBQ. :)
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: flipperz71 on April 04, 2008, 07:45:46 AM
1. it is an optical illusion
2. yes & no. I would assume it is up the the chef since the leaves are not harmful to humans, but they are poisonous to dogs and cats.
3. Bradley Technologies Canada for both.
4. no question 4
5. Yes. The juice from unripe pineapples can act as a violent purgative. Reported adverse effects from bromelain include diarrhea, menorrhagia, nausea, skin rash, and vomiting.
6. 304

Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: flipperz71 on April 04, 2008, 07:51:18 AM
Confused on the recipe site...

Is it the susanminor site or the recipe site on bradley.  the question did not specify...

wow...  i am putting way too much time into this contest...  what the hell is happening to me..  ;D

flip
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Oldman on April 04, 2008, 12:01:31 PM
Dang good answers so far... will announce the winner the first of next month.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Oldman on April 04, 2008, 08:09:50 PM
Quote from: Consiglieri on April 03, 2008, 06:20:46 PM
Quote from: Arcs_n_Sparks on April 02, 2008, 08:16:41 PM
Quote from: Arcs_n_Sparks on March 19, 2008, 08:48:31 PM

Quote from: La Quinta on March 19, 2008, 08:17:35 PM
Arcs...dude...are you a NASA guy or what?

Close in what you say...
Four letters lead the way...
Change one and you are done...
Which one is the fun...   :D

Burma Shave...

Okay.  Started looking at this one, Sparky.  Need help from the peanut gallery though.  Don't know about Nasa, but science posts, Livermore connection, lead me towards the Lawrence Livermore Labs.

Close in what you say: could mean something LQ said (like NASA) or something you say re close in

Four letters: Must relate to Burma Shave or the phrase is out of place. Note that you can spell MASA from this phrase and that changing the M to an N will give you NASA.  Four letter words I've come up with out of the phrase
Have (as in we're "closing in" and the letters are consecutive in the phrase)
Bash
Mash
Rash
Ream
Mare (could be Army)
Hear
Beam
Rube
Sear
Same
Sure
Bear
Bare
Vera


I'm a little stuck.  Any thoughts?
What does this have to do with this contest??? Did I miss something? Please don't Jack this thread. Please go back and edit out this stuff (several here have replied to it -- edit out your replys as well) and start a new thread concerning it.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Consiglieri on April 04, 2008, 10:25:03 PM
Sorry Olds.  Meant no disrespect; just responding to correspondence along the way. 
Followup:  have removed the posts in question. 
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Wildcat on April 07, 2008, 06:54:10 PM
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?

Optics/light refraction and the curvature of the earth.

2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.

No.  They are toxic and often treated with insecticides.

3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?

Everyone.  Credit is provided for the writer of each recipe.  I think that from a contractual standpoint, Raye and Susan own it, but they are providing it for our use.

5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.

Yes.  It can cause throat irritation and can act as a drastic purgative.

6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)

Five.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Oldman on April 10, 2008, 06:44:40 PM
Quote from: flipperz71 on April 04, 2008, 07:51:18 AM
Confused on the recipe site...

Is it the susanminor site or the recipe site on bradley.  the question did not specify...

wow...  i am putting way too much time into this contest...  what the hell is happening to me..  ;D

flip
My bad... as I only consider the susan site the recipe site.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: HCT on April 11, 2008, 06:29:53 AM
Okay, so I did some homework :P :D

1. Size constancy is happening all the time. If you look down the street and see a sports car about 50 feet away, and behind it, about 100 feet away is a big SUV, you know that the SUV is bigger, even though it produces a smaller image on your eye.

One theory about the moon illusion says that when the moon is near the horizon we perceive it to be farther away from us than when it is high in the sky. But since the moon is actually the same size, our minds make it look bigger when it is near the horizon to compensate for the increased distance.

One way that you can trick your mind out of the moon illusion is to bend over at the waist and look at the moon upside down through your legs.

An alternative explanation holds that the moon illusion is caused by the way our eyes focus on distant and close objects. When we focus on the horizon moon, we focus on the moon at a great distance. The overhead moon lacks visual cues that tell us how far away the moon is, so we focus on the moon as if it was a short distance away.

So, for now, the right answer is that there is no right answer. But the one thing people agree on is that the moon does not physically change its size or distance from Earth as it moves across the sky. It's all in our heads

2.No, but,  as to those who thought the leaves poisonous, according to McGee, tomato leaves have long been considered potentially toxic because of the alkaloid tomatine. But recent research shows that that tomatine binds to cholesterol molecules in our digestive system, so we absorb neither the alkaloid nor the cholesterol. In fact, ingesting the leaves reduces cholesterol!

3. The recipes belong to no-one. They are shared amongst all.
4.The site is registered to Susan Minor

5.Yes. The juice from unripe pineapples can act as a violent purgative. Bromelain ingestion has been associated with a low incidence of adverse effects. These include diarrhea, menorrhagia, nausea, skin rash, and vomiting. Angular stomatitis can result from eating large amounts of the fruit. Large quantities of the juice have been reported to cause uterine contractions

6.333
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Smoking Duck on April 15, 2008, 05:31:23 AM
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?
The reason why is an optical illusion.  I could go into all the reasons why it's an optical illusion but then I would come off looking like a NASA nerd  :D

2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
I suppose the true answer is that someone, somewhere has added tomato leaves to a salad.  I wouldn't do it, but then again, I wouldn't stick my tongue on a frozen flagpole but we know somewhere down the line someone has done that as well.  You just can't stop stupid sometimes  ;D

3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the recipe site?
The recipes on the recipe are public domain, unless copyrighted by the owner.  I believe Susan and Raye own the recipe site but since they're married, that really means Susan owns it  ;)

5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain your answer.
I don't believe it will kill you but I do believe it will give you a bad case of the hershey squirts, which in my book, makes it toxic  :o

6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number wins this answer.)
789
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: flipperz71 on April 15, 2008, 07:27:51 AM
1. it is an optical illusion
2. yes & no. I would assume it is up the the chef since the leaves are not harmful to humans, but they are poisonous to dogs and cats.
3.  Raye Minor, Minor Commercial Carpet Maint. Inc., 5010 4th Street South, St. Petersburg, Florida, 33705 owns the site and the recipes are owned by no-one unless it specifys that it is copywrited by the recipe submitter.
4. no question 4
5. Yes. The juice from unripe pineapples can act as a violent purgative. Reported adverse effects from bromelain include diarrhea, menorrhagia, nausea, skin rash, and vomiting.
6. 304

Flipperz71
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Habanero Smoker on April 15, 2008, 01:04:26 PM
Smoking Duck;

I think you should win soley on your anwers. ;D Forget about the number.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: iceman on April 15, 2008, 01:52:28 PM
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on April 15, 2008, 01:04:26 PM
Smoking Duck;

I think you should win soley on your anwers. ;D Forget about the number.

Good to see he still has the great sense of humor. :D
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: hillbillysmoker on April 15, 2008, 03:14:06 PM
1. Optical illusion.
2. No, although the leaves are not actually poisonous to humans.
3. The person to whom credit is given......Susan.
4.
5. Yes, digestive reactions will occur.
6. 33
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Smoking Duck on April 15, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
Quote from: iceman on April 15, 2008, 01:52:28 PM
Quote from: Habanero Smoker on April 15, 2008, 01:04:26 PM
Smoking Duck;

I think you should win soley on your anwers. ;D Forget about the number.

Good to see he still has the great sense of humor. :D

Sometimes, you just gotta laugh at the stuff life throws you.  Believe me, it ain't pretty watching my 240 pounds of molten lust crying ;D.  On a side note, Pat, I've been watching a lot of Deadliest Catch since I'm not working......I might need you to hook me up to work on a crab boat.  It looks tough, but, it might just be what I need.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: IKnowWood on April 15, 2008, 07:39:41 PM
ok, my .02 cents.  BTW, I don't want to win, this is just opinion. 

1.  It is indeed an optical illusion, kinda.  The observer is indeed seeing a larger image that is due to the refraction of the ice and water crystals (more frozen O2 the larger the refraction) that provides the larger projection of the image on the other side.  Note, we are looking at the projection of the Moon as the Sun reflects its image from the surface thru our atmosphere.  The thicker the atmosphere, the more O2 that image needs to go thru, this to larger the refraction.  At different elevations that refraction is larger or shorter than others.  Growing up at 6K Feet elevation the Moon looked big but now at zero to 100 feet that moon us magnormous at moon rise or set.  Yes GEEK...

2. Leaves provide discomfort and bad reactions.  Toxic, possible depending on reactions due to toxin reactions in the allergens and oils in the leaves, much like Poison Ivy. Me, I have tasted them to tested them to understand acidity and moisture.  But dang they are nasty.

3. Owner of site is the Minor Estate.  The material posted on the site is of the public domain for at least after one year of first disclosure, after the first year, the original poster has the time up to three years to define copyright of said material.  Right now, as this is still under the three year and possibly no infringement complains have not been issued to the Minor Estate, all is in the Public domain and owned by no-one and all.  Of course, all still depends on that one year of disclosure.

4. who should be the owner of the Recipe Material?  This should be established as Open Material, defined under a Open Source agreement with specific definition of access rights and copyright to the originating source, the Minor Estate and Trustees of the Bradley Users Forum Group, as defined as the membership of the Recipe Site and Bradley Forum Membership.  (Yeah I made up my own question, but it fits)

5. Depending on reaction of an individuals Human Physiology, its not good. But not necessarily toxic.  I for one are not interested in testing this.

6. Hey, Number 500.

But I divert my potential winnings to the next closest members, if the case is such I am best selected. 
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: iceman on April 23, 2008, 01:27:32 PM
Getting close guys and I know there is alot more members out there that would like this prize. Lets get your answers in so you have a shot at it. ;D ;)
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: flipperz71 on May 01, 2008, 08:00:50 AM
It is 5-1-08.......  And the winner of the grill is ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Oldman on May 01, 2008, 03:39:29 PM
Contest is closed. As soon as I can get a chance to go over the entries I will let you all know.
Title: Re: Contest From Iceman and Olds
Post by: Oldman on May 02, 2008, 05:45:59 PM
1. Why does the Moon look larger when rising or setting then it does when over head?
A. The moon's size never changes - rather it is an optical illusion.
It stems from the brain's habit of calculating the dimensions of the
unfamiliar by comparing them with the size of the familiar. When the moon
is setting/rising, it is low in the horizon and among an abundance
of buildings, trees and houses. When the brain compares the sizes of moon
and the buildings, the moon is bigger and thus appears huge to the mind's
eye. Directly overhead however, there is nothing to contrast the moon to
but the infinite sky. Even clouds are generally bigger, so the size of the
moon mentally shrinks.

2. Are tomatoe leaves ever added to a salad? If your answer is yes or no
explain your answer.
A. The leaves of the tomato ARE poisonous - the offending chemical is
an alkyloid called Tomatine.

3. Two part question: Who owns the recipes on the recipe site? Who owns the
recipe site?
A. The Bradly members unless the a recipe is copyrighted.
B. The recipe site is owned by MCCM (susanminor.org is acceptable) as it owns the server the site sits on. (I own the copy of V-bulletin board.)

5. Is an un-ripe pineapple toxic? If your answer is yes or no explain
your answer.
A. Unripe pineapple has poison which can cause drastic purging.
6. Pick a number between 1 and 1000. (the closest to the number
wins this answer.)
A 444