FOOD POISONING AND FOOD HYGIENE. PART 2

Oldman · May 06, 2005, 04:04:12 PM

I got still one small coding to change over. However: Check out what Paul did again!

FOOD POISONING AND FOOD HYGIENE. PART 2

Paul as you will see I used a couple of different images~~ [:D] Also if you do another one in this class I'm going to strip out all of the formating next time on the attachment you send. Those format codes are a killer to get around LOL~~~ You would think I learned the last time--nope~ DUH on me.

Olds

Foam Steak · May 06, 2005, 06:41:14 PM

Thanks for the information. What about Nitrates/Nitrites and there roll in preventing bacteria growth? I have noticed more than a few recipes that include the use of nitrates (prague #1) call for more time smoking around 130. I have a recipe for smoked turkey that has a temperature schedule of 5 hours 130, 4 hours 140 then final temperature of 165 until the internal temperature of the bird is only 152. My assumption was since the bird was brined with both salt and Prague #1 it did not need to reach 165/170 internal temperature. Am I off base?

Thanks

Oldman · May 06, 2005, 10:23:43 PM

First welcome to the forum Foam Steak.

Wet Curing is a method used to protect items from soilage. It is the method of choice for most hams that are purchase in the supermarket.

A brine is used to add flavor or to make tender a piece of meat.

If in fact you are only brining the bird those cook temps would worry me much.

Post up that recipe and let us take a look at it.

Olds

Foam Steak · May 06, 2005, 10:43:13 PM

Do you have Rytek Kutas's book? It is the Turkey smoking recipe in there. If you don't have it I guess I could post it, but I am not sure about printing copywrited materials on the internet?

I know at one point when he is discussing processing hams he says not to bring them above 120F because it will harm there keeping abilities. I guess eventually with all of these low temperature recipes you are expected to cook them fully before use?

Thanks,

Foam Steak · May 06, 2005, 11:15:34 PM

Actually I am getting my answers by continuing to read. From Rytek's book: "additionally, nitrites also help to prevent rancidity in the storage of meats. Most important of all, nitrite protects the meat products from the deadly toxin known as botulism"

Oldman · May 07, 2005, 01:06:25 AM

Foam Steak

I've been smokin' now for 46-47 years and I've never had a book! As far as copyrights go you are not selling it,you are looking for advise concerning it--so all you have to do is give reference to the author etc..

However, if you don't feel comfortable with that then don't do it!

Olds

Foam Steak · May 07, 2005, 02:27:43 AM

Allrighty then. Here is a partial copy of the recipe from Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing by Rytek Kutas.

Brine:
5 Gallons Water
1.5 lbs Powdered Dextrose
2 lbs Salt
1 lb Prague Powder #1

He then goes on to expain two methods of curing.
1. Cover Pickle. Submerge bird in 38-40F brine solution for 4 days while maintaning 38-40F temperature. Be sure to clean bird well before putting in the brine. Bring bird to same temperature as brine before submirging.
2. Spray Pump Method. Disolve all ingredients into water chill to 38-40F. Pump bird with brine 10% weight of bird. Example 20lb bird gets 2 lb brine. After pumping place bird in ice cold water for at least 3 hours then move to 38-40F brine solution for 48 hours.

After that he goes into the smoking schedule.
After turkey is cured wash very well in cold water and place in a preheated 130F smoker for at least 1 hour with dampers open. Close damper to 1/4 open and apply smoke for 5 hours at 130F. Then raise temp to 140F and hold for 4 hours. Finally raise temp to 165F and hold until an internal temperature of 152F is obtained. Remove from smoker and let meat temp drop to 100f before placing in cooler.

Then he goes on to say in bold "SMOKED TURKEY IS A PERISHABLE PRODUCT AND SHOULD BE KEPT UNDER REFRIGERATION AT ALL TIMES"

He then talks about the pink color the cure(prague 1) will impart and also says "if you decide not to use cure in your brine , it is imperative that you preheat your smoker to at least 180F and allow the turkey to dry for at least 1 hour. The temperature should then be raised to 200F and cooked until the internal temperature of the bird is at least 170F. Needles to say, we are now baking or cooking the turkey at more or less normal high temperatures, which eliminates the possibility of food poisoning without the use of cures.

Thats the jist of it. He then goes on to talk about where to check the bird for internal temperature and flavor differences between cured/non-cured.

MAN, thats alot of typing! Good thing I am a decent typer! [:)]

In addition, since I posted last, I checked Ryteks recipe for Braunschweiger. Which is a liver/pork meat sausage that is imulsified with spices cured/cooked/smoked then serverd cold. For a 10 lb batch he uses 2 tsp of Prague #1, a bunch of spices, water pork and liver. The cooking schedule only requres the meat reach 152 and thats it. Then some cold smoke, chill and ready to eat.

He also includes the contents of "Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (9 CFR parts 318, 381) Nitrates, Nitrites and Salt," U.S Department of Agriculture, Animal and Plant Inspection Service, Washington, D.C.

That document mainly deals with the use of Nitrates/Nitrites in food. It seems to focus mainly on Botulism, but I think it sort of alludes to the fact that more than just Botulism is inhibited by the proper use of nitrates, nitrites and salt.

In conclusion. According to Rytek Kutas if you properly us Nitrates/Nitrites when smoking and curing meat products it is not neccesary to bring those items to the normally higher temperatures required when just cooking alone.

MAN thats alot of typing. [:)]

Thats all I have, what do you think?

JJC · May 07, 2005, 02:53:24 AM

Hi All,

Manxman's second piece is superb, just as the first one was!

I would like to make a couple of suggestions: 1) we (that probably means you, Olds!) should put some cross-links in both Manx' stuff and the Curing and Brining piece since the items are very complementary. 2) We (and by that I am hoping Manx will do it!) should double check the safety data he provides with the same info provided in the Curing and Brining piece to make sure they are consistent. If there is a discrepancy, we should figure out why and decide what the correct (or safest) info is.

Foam Steak, I would recommend you look at the Curing and Brining piece on the Olds FAQ Forum. If you want a more detailed scientific explanation, an excellent book is Harold McGee "On Food and Cooking: the science and lore of the kitchen" (Scribner 2004, 2nd edition, ISBN 0-684-80001-2).

In fact, Olds, we should add this reference to the list of books on the FAQ Forum. Yet another thing for you to do. . . [:D]

John
Newton MA

manxman · May 07, 2005, 10:57:07 AM

Hi all,

The article I submitted is not and never was intended to be the answer to all the issues on Food Hygiene. It was aimed at the average man (or woman[:D]) in the street to give a better day to day understanding of basic food hygiene and to encourage further reading and research if required.

Coupled with that, there are very few references to nitrates/nitrites in the various US and UK agency data I used, most of the information was repeated time and again between these documents and these chemicals featured rarely.

Besides, if the basic principles of food hygiene are adhered to, it makes nitrates/nitrites somewhat irrelevant.

For example, they were used much more commonly before refridgerators and freezers became widely available.

I also figured that issues such as nitrates/nitrites was beyond the scope of such an article, which I tried to keep simple and easy to read.[:)]

However, if the concensus is that reference should be made to them we can include some information in the relevant area .

However, the opposite side of the coin is that nitrates/nitrites in themselves can be toxic, nitrite can convert the haemoglobin in blood to methaemoglobin which means that no oxygen is transported to the tissues![:(] Nitrates are used to treat cardiac problems.

The danger is that such articles can become too big and difficult to read, just tried to keep it managable otherwise I would be her til next Christmas writing it!![:(][:(]

JJC wrote:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">double check the safety data he provides with the same info provided in the Curing and Brining piece to make sure they are consistent.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Have you spotted a discrepancy John? If anyone does spot something them let me know and I will endevour to put it right, I did get it proof read but it is possible that something has slipped through the net! [:I][:I]

p.s any errors are mine and I would only be too happy to try and put them right.[:D][:D]

Manxman.

Oldman · May 07, 2005, 01:15:46 PM

<hr noshade size="1"><hr noshade size="1">The danger is that such articles can become too big and difficult to read, just tried to keep it managable otherwise I would be her til next Christmas writing it!!<hr noshade size="1"><hr noshade size="1">

For this common man it is more than complete~~! Like the last two major one's I coded (JJC's and mamxman's) I learned much.

Olds

humpa · May 07, 2005, 02:08:13 PM

Olds....You are correct. Keep it "simple" to read for us simple commoners. I'd rather read a paragraph of facts than a book on explanations of how and why.

Ernie....Weymouth, MA

JJC · May 07, 2005, 02:57:22 PM

I agree! Paul, I did not spot any discrepancies at first glance, but I did have time to go over it carefully. I didn't want to be distracted from reading the excellent content and logical flow to want to check the fine details! I really do think your two pieces and the Curing/Brining piece are very complementary, which is why I suggested that there be a couple of places in each article that links to the other for further or related information. For example, Curing + Brining has a short paragraph dealing with nitrites/nitrates--their history, how they work, when and how to use them--that should satisfy 90+% of folks without boring them with morbid detail. For those who want the historic or mechanistic details (and I have to admit I am often one of them!), they can refer to the books and websites both the Food Safety and Curing/Brining articles list at the end.

John
Newton MA

Foam Steak · May 07, 2005, 07:29:45 PM

Sorry Guys,

I wasnt trying to start any problems and I thought the article was really well written. I am just new to all of this and I am trying to learn as much as possible. Right now I am just really curious about the whole nitrate/nitrite thing. I will get it all figured out. Thanks to everyone who has put so much hard work into this site. It is a super reference and I am thankful for the help answering my silly questions!

Thanks Again

Leif

Oldman · May 08, 2005, 01:34:25 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I wasnt trying to start any problems and I thought the article was really well written. I am just new to all of this and I am trying to learn as much as possible. Right now I am just really curious about the whole nitrate/nitrite thing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No worries friend! We are all one family.

Don't know if you have seen this about nitrate/ nitrite by JJC... but it is worth the reading and will help give you a foundation of understanding:

http://www.susanminor.org/smokers/curing/curingandbrining.htm

Olds

manxman · May 08, 2005, 09:29:20 AM

Hi Folks

Oldman posted:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">No worries friend! We are all one family. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How true! [:D]

Nothing wrong with provoking a bit of discussion Foam Streak, none of us has all the answers! [:D][:D]

It prompted me to go away and do a little more reading regarding nitrates and nitrites so I am all the wiser for your comments.[:D]

I was more concerned that I had either got something wrong or was misleading people inadvertantly.[:(][:I]

Happy..... and safe smoking all! [:D][:D][:D]

Manxman.