Observations of Green wood smoking.

[precookingsmoker]

It appears green woods are VERY promising and might also be a direction Bradley might consider going to round out its array of equipment.

e.g., a portable, light weight, low power, "electric shredder" or "chipper" for limbs 1" in diameter or smaller for shredding to chip size. Could be called a "Bradley Chip Chopper" or similar.   ::)

Anyway, The green peach tree branches imparted a buttery(?) flavor or taste with a hint of sweetness to a piece of white bread in 1 hour of cold smoking. The body of the bread remained soft with no trace of hardening or excessive moisture even though the smoked surface was beginning to have a light "tan".

I see no reason that would prevent chipping green non-fruit woods like Hickory, Mesquite, & Walnut, too.

On the down side....The rate of consumption (smoke to ash) appears to be 2 to 3 times faster than dry Hickory chips. Had I shredded the green peach branch instead of cutting it into 2.5" sticks, the volume would have been greater and the smoking time longer with each wood fill from the reduction in wasted air space in the burn vessel using those irregular branch pieces.

Green does heat up fast....starting smoke is faster than dry wood I think. About 3 1/2 to 4 minutes in my smoker. -Larry

[Habanero Smoker]

The only problem I see is how do you keep it "green" over a long period of time without seasoning.

[precookingsmoker]

Good point Habanero Smoker.

I have been "musing" that very issue since yesterday. Storing green cuttings in a bag will result in mold just like a compost pile.

Drying the cuttings will be costly because of the energy to heat & ventilate.

My present thoughts are to cut when needed from the tree's, selecting branches that will be pruned in the future...... Or, waiting until summer when I can cut branches and let them dry in the ambient air. Of course they will harden too, requiring a higher power chipper electric motor. It may be necessary to summer shred instead, and let the shredding dry on a screen in the summer heat(?). I would not suggest using any existing gas motorized chipper because of exhaust fumes and vapor contaminating the wood. 

Maybe someone has a cost effective* (*no $$$) idea how to dry the greens without making our homes look like a neighborhood refuse pile?

In any case, I have an old 3/4 HP electric chipper(too much HP) that I am going to clean up from the cuttings of a poisonous Texas Umbrella tree from next door, and then test its chipping size capability by seeing if I can raise the cutting bar height with spacers to get an optimum chip thickness. If successful I will post pictures of it and the sizes of the chips resulting.

Hope BRADLEY is monitoring this stuff we are tossing around..... Maybe they have some drying ideas too?.........  ;)  -Larry

[Quarlow]

Hey this is just a thought but what about chipping the wood and put them in ziplocks and then freeze them so they don't go moldy on you.

[Habanero Smoker]

Cutting the limbs as you need them is what I use to do.

If you have freezer space Quarlow's idea may work.

[pikeman_95]

I chipped a probably 1000 pounds of chips this spring and placed then of a couple of pallots with a open fabrick to allow air flow. You are correct that if left on the ground they will mold. I loosly covered them with a tarp to keep rain off of them and used a rake to stir them frequently. They did not mold and dried out quite quickly. I used a dark tarp and the heat under the tarp helped the drying process. just use some sort of sticker between the tarp and the chips so that there is plenty of air flow. I then found some large used gunny sacks from a feed store and filled them with the chips and stored them in my green house. I moisten the chips the night before I intend to use them to keep them from burning up too fast. If you mix some dry chips with the wet ones it helps the smoke generator to put out smoke sooner.

Kirby

[KyNola]

Precookingsmoker,
Have you tried that green wood smoking technique in the Bradley on anything other than bread?  The reason I ask is the potential for creosote flavor from smoking green wood over a long smoke period of time on a 125 watt hot plate.

[precookingsmoker]

Unfortunately KyNola, I am a Bradely persona non gotta(grata?) and an in disguise with a pseudo B. smoker.

I Have only used green wood in a test configuration from the trash barrel because the newly hired yard man had pruned most of our fruit trees days and took the cuttings away before the idea came to me to try it.

It was tried out in the home built COLD smoker only. No adverse odor detected in burn vessel, duct vapor drippings, or rack enclosure after several runs of 1 hour each.

-Larry

[Tenpoint5]

That clears up the questions I had.

[Caneyscud]

The way I understand creosote production is that it is caused by low combustion temperatures - not whether you have moisture (H2O) in your wood or even the type of wood.  Contrary to popular opinion, sap in the wood does not cause creosote, and softwoods (pine, fir, spruce, etc... ) do not produce more creosote than oak or other hardwoods.  In fact in open fireplaces hardwoods can develop more creosote than softwoods.  Studies done in the 80's showed the softwoods burned hotter, so they deposited less creosote than a hardwood fire.   You can burn green wood hot enough that it doesn't condense creosote in/on your chimney or other parts of your smoker and food. 

Dry seasoned wood burns hotter easier because it doesn't have to offput the moisture (i.e. boil it away).  By having to do that the green wood doesn't burn as hot until it drives off the water.   Ever seen someone boil water over a campfire in a cup made out of newspaper?  Any chemist or physicist will tell you that all the water must be consumed before the paper will heat up past 212 degrees – but we won't believe it until we see it done!   Since the paper won't ignite until it is heated over 450 degrees, the water will boil before the paper burns. Guess what happens to green wood?  Green wood is up to 50 percent water.  All the water must be boiled out of the wood before the remaining fibers will be heated enough to release combustible gases. Just like the paper cup, the temperature of the wood will not rise above 212 degrees until the water is gone.  Bear in mind that creosote forms at temperatures below 300 degrees F.   So while you are not burning the green wood, you are producing creosote.

Now let's go a little further and say dry wood doesn't burn either!   Nope campers - wood doesn't burn!  I don't care what your grandpop says – wood doesn't burn!  It sublimates – undergoes a process called pyrolysis .  Say what!   Pyrolysis is usually the first chemical reaction that occurs in the burning of solid organic fuels, like wood.  In a wood fire, the visible flames are not due to combustion of the wood itself, but rather of the gases released by its pyrolysis.   Next time you haven't got a great deal to do, watch a fire carefully.  If you look closely, you will see that the flames don't actually touch the wood!  The stick of wood is a producer of volatile gasses.  When the wood is heated well into the 450 degree range, these gasses are driven off and ignite. 

After all the volatiles are driven off, the wood becomes charcoal -  a "form" or carbon.  Charcoal is flammable, which is why it glows red in the firebox.

And because the steam caused by the driving off of the water is cooler than say combustion gases, it can condense on things faster and easier than other compounds put out by combustion.   Condensed water is of course at a lower  temp than 212 deg, so creosote can condense on it.   Essentially, if the fire is not hot enough the volatiles will vaporize rather than burn in the firebox and can condense on anything cool enough.  What does that sound like?  It sounds like a smoker – smoldering fire – low temps.  Essentially when smoking you are producing creosote - you can't get around it. 

You often hear something like this (I copied it off of a website that will remain un-named – but it could be from any number of websites).  "Next, you have to decide if you want to use wet or dry smoke. Dry smoke is created by sprinkling dry wood chips or chunks over the hot coals. Dry wood burns up faster, but releases a much stronger smoke. Too much dry smoke, however, can lead to an overly-strong and bitter smoke flavor.

Wet smoke is created by soaking wood chunks in water overnight before setting them over the coals. The wet wood burns slower, releasing steam as well as smoke, and provides a milder smoke flavor over a longer period of time than dry wood. The steam also helps keep the meat moist ."  Can I say balderdash again? 

Hardwoods and softwoods are made up of basically the same items – except that softwoods generally contain a greater percentage of  resins that can produce a harsh tasting soot.  Different species of tree do have different ratios of components, so various types of wood do impart a different flavor to food.   Combustion of wood offputs a lot of different compounds, etc.. that are the "flavor" in smoke.  The compounds in the smoke depend not only on the fuel but also the efficiency of combustion. Inefficient combustion produces dense white smoke.  Dense white smoke has a lot of the flavor compounds including creosote.  These could make the meat bitter and overwhelm other flavors.  Higher temperatures (more efficient combustion) break down these compounds resulting in less "smoke flavor."  Many people do not like a strong smoke flavor (including most KCBS judges) so they like to see "thin blue" smoke.  The thin blue smoke is also hotter, so it is not as likely to condense on the meat, but just passes on by and on out the exhaust.   

Because the "smoke flavor" is from the deposition of these compounds, the longer the meat stays in the smoke, regardless of the meat temperature, more smoke flavor is deposited.  This is a process termed adsorption (not absorption – notice the difference in spelling).  If you read about BBQ enough you will find it said that meat won't take any more smoke when it gets to 120 deg, 145, 150, 165, etc.....  Balderdash (again).  Even I have been known to say something such as that prior to my awakening.  What got me to change my tune?  It just doesn't make sense, plus my "cheater" briskets.  In certain and rare circumstances I will cook a brisket (usually "cowboy" ) in the oven prior to sticking it into a smoker.  Guess what, it gets smoke flavored.  Should we say "Myth Busted!"  Throw that one out the window. 

Smoke flavor is a depositing action- not a soaking in.  Adsorption – not absorption.  Meat will take up smoke flavor as long as it's exposed to smoke, though the rate at which it does so seems to decrease as the temperature of the meat rises.  What probably happens is that enough smoke flavor is deposited on the meat that any more just won't produce an increase in smoke flavor – you've reached your taste buds saturation point. 

[ArnieM]

Really nice write up Caney.  I love coming here for an education.  :D

[punchlock]

Wow Caney that was a great post, now my head hurts I need a nap....


I happened to pick up about 60 pounds of hardwood dust while on my hunting trip. I was able to get some maple, cherry and oak. I thought I would take a run at using it in the contraption Nepas had posted (can't remember the name). This wood is fresh form the sawmill and not dry at all. reading through you thoughts am I to assume that I should dry this wood before I use it? or does it matter? I am confused....

[precookingsmoker]

Best way (I think) to "digest" Caneyscud excellent article is to go thru' it line by line making notes on the side of the good and the bad.

Then assemble the notes into good and bad columns for further digestion while savoring the content for its full flavor.   ;D

[punchlock]

Best way (I think) to "digest" Caneyscud excellent article is to go thru' it line by line making notes on the side of the good and the bad.

Then assemble the notes into good and bad columns for further digestion while savoring the content for its full flavor.   ;D

;D :D ;D ;D

[NePaSmoKer]

What stupid person who even knows anything about smoking would even think about using green wood?  Oh wait lemme thro a gallon of creosote in thar fer added flaver  :D  :D


Pull Emull Pull  :D  DUH