Smoke Flavor

ndsmoker · October 03, 2005, 01:58:05 PM

It takes a man to admit it, but I need help. I've been smoking for about 4 months with my BS, and I've never gotten what I consider to be outstanding smoke flavor. I'm not implying the problem is with the BS, I'm sure its my technique.

There are two times that I get great smoke flavor. One is when I use wood in my Weber grill to add a bit of flavor to a steak or burger.

The second is when I used Alton Brown's (Good Eats - Foodtv.com) technique for pork butt. He makes a smoker from two clay pots, and I actually thought there was TOO much smoke flavor. I've never gotten that from my Bradley.

I'm a bit discouraged, last nights brisket was the final straw to get me to post on it. It was tender, but without the sauce there would've been very little flavor. I find the same with ribs: texture is great, but they lack flavor. No matter how much smoke and rub and baste I use, it just ain't like the Q I got used to when I lived in KC.

Again, I'm not saying this is the smoker's fault but the Smoker's (me) fault. To be honest, I haven't tried any recipes from Old's site or this one, and thats what I plan to do next.

Can anyone recommend some slam dunk recipes? I see so many times "...and let the smoker do the rest..." - I think I need to do something else.

Maybe its just the beginner's stage of things, and I need to get to the next level.......

bsolomon · October 03, 2005, 04:41:19 PM

There are a lot of very good "food detectives" here, but as they say, "we need just the facts." Give us a complete runthrough of your techniques, incuding your prep/rub/marindade, smoking time/cooking time/temperatures/bisquette selection, follow-up (FTC), and any other details you can think of, and I'm sure we'll get you pointed in the right direction.

The other possibility (and you can do some searcing for other threads in this forum on the topic) is that of "desensitization" to the smoke flavor by the person who does the smoking. In other words, after hanging around the smoker and handling the food, you yourself can get a bit smoked (i.e., in your hair and clothing) and you become less able to appreciate the amount of smoke flavor in the food. You might need the opinion of a neutral observer or to taste test something the second day to be sure.

give us an update, and I'm sure we'll come up with sevral things for you to try.

ndsmoker · October 03, 2005, 08:57:59 PM

Desensitization could be part of it. Aroma is a big part of the taste sensation, and with olfactory fatigue kicked in, the taste could be less than spectacular. I had the brisket from last night at lunch and it did taste better, but maybe it was because I didn't drink much beer before lunch either[:D]

I've cooked salmon, scallops, pork, venison, brisket, ribs, even caribou. I find that the meats I cook only to temp - salmon, venison, caribou - not for a very long time, have a more pronounced smoke flavor.

I use recipes from Paul Kirk's book, Alton Brown's pulled pork, and I've used Adam Perry Lang's recipe for ribs out of a Food and Wine magazine last april. I've done Olds' bacon wrapped chicken, and it was awesome, tonight I'm doing the pepper version.

I've had good luck with Alton's pulled pork, but when its all done, the texture is great, it tastes like really good pork, but not SMOKED pork! Except when I did it his way as I alluded to in my first post. I'm switching it around to use in the Bradley.

Take Mr. Lang's rib recipe for example - it really should stack on the flavor: pureed garlic/onion/worchestershire marinade overnight, 7 spice rub on before smoking, and basting with a diluted BBQ sauce. It should just be intensely flavorful, and it is pretty good, but I was expecting even better!

I try to keep the temp of the smoker right, and I think I do a good job of food prep, brining, marinating, FTC, etc. I am OK on judging when its done, but I'm best with temps to watch on the meat. For last night's brisket I found out it was pretty darn hot - about 200 - when I finally did check it, because I was using Paul Kirk's method of judging brisket - fork or meat thermometer should meet littl resistance. My cordless thermo has broken, a new one is on the way.

I've seen discussion about types of wood, and how long to apply the smoke, but I've yet to get it TOO smoky tasting - one of the reasons for this discussion. I use hickory, maple, apple, and a combination of them.

One thing I've done which I think breaks some rules is to put a small foil pan in the center of the 4th rack to catch some drippings. I know, if it covers too much it can cause problems, but the cleanup is a bear without it.

Maybe what I need to do is follow a recipe that is designed for a Bradley. Then if I have problems, you all could help troubleshoot that. There are so many variables, ways I could be going wrong.....

The good news is that I'm glad theres more to it than just buying the smoker and it all happens automatically. I like to think that there's a bit of art left in it, even with something as automated as a Bradley.

Oldman · October 04, 2005, 12:10:17 AM

ndsmoker,

This is interesting as I do a lot to limit the amount of smoke I get out of the bradley.

I believe what Barry was asking you is what are you doing. Give us a step by step.

1. type of wood.
2. how long do you smoke it (number of pucks.)
3. what temp are you smoking at.
4. when do you use the pucks... the beginning or at the end of your cook time.

Tell us everything and please put it in a step by step outline.

Also just how much smoke do you see coming out of the unit. Can you take a picture of it? If so and you cannot upload it for posting then E-mail it to me and I will post it for you. Also take a picture of your burned pucks. Break open a couple of them also.

Fire up your generator for 30 minutes then place two drops of water on the burner... does the water sizzle?

I use all of the woods you listed plus much oak. However, I use Adler a fair amount of time as it is the mildest of smokes. I go 6 hours of Oak on a butt and my family is cutting off the outer edge.

I have ckeck the thread so I will be notified when you re-post.

Olds

ndsmoker · October 04, 2005, 04:18:38 PM

I will take a pic of the smoke, and you bring up a good point on the pucks – sometimes they burn to nothing, sometimes they're pretty solid inside. I always put water in the bowl at the bottom and have the damper cracked.

Here is what I have so far from my "smoking journal:

Beef Brisket
-11:15 AM 4.5lb brisket went on.
-Weather temp was 50 degrees, brisk breeze
-in 20 min had hit 225, so I turned it from High to ¾.
-Started with 10 bisquettes

3 hour mark
-flipped (accidentally started fat side down).
-Basted with Apple Juice.
-Internal temp was 150 while the smoker temp had gone up 5 degrees or so

5 hour mark
-internal temp 157, must be at the proverbial "plateau"

Just over 6 hours
-160 degrees, turned up temp a bit, it had fallen a bit below 200. Probably why it hasn't been moving much
-Flipped it, basted, moved thermometer, and it was 157 degrees (in a thicker spot)
-closed the top vents all the way

By 7 hours (6:15)
-it had hit 165, and because I have the temp on high, (about 240 right now) I'm going to hold off for 30 more minutes before bailing into the oven

I ended up bailing out into the oven for an hour, and it was just OK. Not quite tender enough.

Country Style Ribs
I treat them like a butt, since its just a big piece of pork.
Brined ribs overnight in Alton Brown's brine, but weaker: 4oz molasses (ran out, was going to do 6) 8oz pickling salt, 2quarts water

Took out, rinsed, and put in fridge. Rubbed with AB's Butt rub at 1:30 and put in at 1:45, had been preheated to 225.

15 bisquettes, alternating hickory and maple
Made Jack Daniel's BBQ Sauce from Kirk Book

1:45 – 40 degrees
3:00 – internal 120, smoker 175, turned it up to ¾ to high
3:45 – Internal 140, smoker 200
4:30 – Internal 150, smoker 200 – turning it to max, turning ribs, switching racks
- switched thermometer, temp went to 139
5:45 – Internal 162, smoker 230, I turned it down 1/5. Smells great!
6:45 – Internal 165, smoker 230. Checked tenderness, seemed OK. Internal went down to 160...
7:15 – internal 165, took off. Wrapped in ziplock, tinfoil, cooler.
1.5 hour rest, very good, not quite pull apart tender, but very good. Without sauce though, the flavor would suffer. Not sure if that's a problem, or normal.

Baby Back ribs
Adam Perry Lang's marinade (really more of a wet rub) overnight. Didn't trim any fat, ribs look good, no shiners.
In the morning, take out and sprinkle 7 Spice dry rub on, let come to room temperature.
I smoke for 6 hours at a bit over 200 degrees, using hickory almost the whole time. I rotate racks top to bottom after about halfway through, and baste with an apple juice/water/apple cider vinegar spray.

The meat pulls back a bit from the edges, but I can't quite twist the bone. They must be done though, because they seem a little overcooked (slightly dry) even with proper FTC.

I think this is going to be an ongoing education!

Oldman · October 04, 2005, 05:01:46 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">sometimes they burn to nothing, sometimes they're pretty solid inside.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ok most pucks will still have their shape once the 20 minute cycle is over with. Slightly firm. Now the pucks that burn to nothing are they the last puck in your line of pucks? If not and there are un-burned pucks behind the burn to nothing puck then I think you have a bad generator. If this is the case then Stop Don't Pass Go call Bradley for a replacement if it is under warrenty. 1-800-665-4188.

Next, about your brisket not being "Not quite tender enough" there are a couple of items that stand out.
1.) It should take longer than 8 hours to slow cook a 4 1/2 brisket. My briskets are generally around 6 to 6 1/2 pounds and take right at 14 hours including 2 hours FTC.
2.)I think you are cooking it to hot. 200-207 F works. I normally have mine at 207 F. Once you get above the point of boiling water the meat begins to lose moisture and start to toughen up.

AT 4 1/2 pounds I would just about guess you are smoking the flat. I never do that end. The flat seems to be as good as I like, I corn that end. Next what grade of meat are you using?

Remember beef only has to be inspected.

That USDA grading is voluntary!

The reason I bring this up is no matter what quality of the animal is if allowed to grow old it is not normally graded and is what I call utililty meat. This is why I only purchase full briskets in their original cryopac packages. The grade stamp can only be labled by the processor and it will be on that package. This is one of the main reasons I will not take a re-pack from a butcher.

I also found that the price difference between IBP Choice and Excel Select grades is less than 50 cents per pound. There is a huge difference between the two. The IBP Choice can be dry aged. You would be hard pressed to do that with Excel Select. Excel Select is what is in most supermarkets here where I live.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The meat pulls back a bit from the edges, but I can't quite twist the bone. They must be done though, because they seem a little overcooked (slightly dry) even with proper FTC.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Again I think this is because you are cooking them to hot. Most items I do other than bacon wrapped chicken breast and a brisket are at a box temp. around 190-195. Slow is the going when smokin' foods.

Let us know about your generator.

Olds

bsolomon · October 04, 2005, 06:36:02 PM

ndsmoker,

It is still hard to say exactly what is at issue here. I agree with everything that Olds said, and it is possible that the generator is not working properly and you are simply not getting enough smoke from each bisquette.

From your log, I see a couple of other possible issues:

For the brisket: Brisket is one of the meats that seems to benefit from more than 4 hours of smoke, while virtually everything else is plenty smokey with no more than 4, and some will cut that down for poultry. In this case, 10 bisquettes would be only 3hr 20min of smoke if they were all used, and if you don't have Bubba Pucks behind them, then the last two aren't used, and you only net 8 bisquettes for 2 hr 40min of smoke. I would go with hickory and/or maple or a combination - I don't think apple would be a good choice here. So in this case, increase your bisquettes to 12-15 plus two more as spacers, and this should help.

In the case of the brisket and the country ribs, it appears that the internal meat temperature is coming up very quickly. I have never logged it this precisely, but I'm suprised to see that the brisket was 150 degrees after only 3 hours, and the country ribs were at 140 after only 2 hours. This brings up a couple of thoughts. First, it is a widely held belief that the meat will only continue to absorb smoke flavor INTO the meat while the pores are still open, and this is while the meat temperature is below 140 degrees. After that, you are adding smoke ONTO the surface of the meat. Basting may actually be serving to wash away smoke flavor from the surface after that time, and with little flavor making it inside, this may explain your less smokey results. So, the bigger issue here is why is the internal temperature rising so fast? What are you using for a thermometer? The door thermometers are notorius for being inaccurate, so be sure to test that against another thermometer to make sure it is accurate. Even if it is accurate, it is relatively high in the cabinet, and there may be a big difference in temperature gradient the closer you get to the heating element. Be sure you measure the cabinet temperature where the meat is. If all of this is good, then you might consider moving the meat to a higher rack position during the smoking phase (or lowering your temperature somewhat) so that the meat remains below 140 during the entire smoking phase. If the meat is drying out, that would also be a sign of too high a temperature, but each of the items you mentioned I would consider longer cooking time items, and they can all benefit from 1 lb. of bacon in the uppermost rack dripping down in an automatic baste the entire smoking/cooking time.

In general, it looks like everything is cooking too quickly, but at the same time, it doesn't appear that you are getting them to the proper internal temperatures, so they are not fully rendering, and not coming out tender. Brisket will hover in the 150-175 range for a long period of time. You have to let it render the fat and collagen to get it tender, and there is nothing you can do to speed this up. You will want your brisket in the high 180s to low 190s for good slicing and mid 190s to 200 for good chopping. The country ribs (treating them as pulled pork) would need to get at least up to 185 before FTC for decent tenderness. And for the baby backs, the meat will begin to pull back from the edges far earlier than they are actually done. I think the bone-twist method is the best test, but they will typically be around 185 degrees or a bit higher.

You seem to want to give the food more temperatre to get it done fast, rather than less temperature for longer periods of time, which is the real key. Based on your start times, you appear to be pushing it too close to dinner time, and then you are in trouble because it's not ready when you want. Instead, start early in the morning (or the night before), and if you get done a couple hours too soon, then it will stay nice and hot during and extended FTC.

ndsmoker · October 04, 2005, 10:20:46 PM

Damn (Darn) You guys are helpful!

It looks like I have a lot to look into, probably this weekend. I will check the generator, and I should have bubba pucks by this weekend as well. New thermometer too.

I'm using meat from our own ranch. Best I've ever tasted in steaks, etc, so I would assume brisket too. My butcher isn't leaving much fat on though....but is dry aging, I think its 21 days. He has an old fashioned wood cooler that is great for aging.

I'll let you know what happens. For now I was going to do a recipe or two from Old's site, any suggestions?

Oh, the bacon wrapped chicken was great last night.

John

JVR · October 04, 2005, 11:51:14 PM

I made my first brisket in the Bradley this weekend. 2 hours over cherry was plenty of smoke.

I also had a pastrami in the smoker at the same time. The pastrami, whick was heavily coated in rub, did not pick up much smoke. The brisket, which had much less rub on it, picked up quite a bit of smoke.

Oldman · October 05, 2005, 01:30:25 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My butcher isn't leaving much fat on though....but is dry aging, I think its 21 days.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ok I've dry aged years back. Now if he is trimming it close before the age, then with the trim that must be done after the age I wonder if together you don't have enough fat left.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It was tender, but without the sauce there would've been very little flavor.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Something else is not working here in my head. If he is dry aging it then your meat should have a nice nut-buttery flavor.

IMO I would not dry age a brisket. By its very nature you are drying out the meat. With total yield loss (with dry trim) up to 22-25%. If he can cryovac your brisket, then leave a good cap on it and wet age it for 30 - 40 days. Then trim your brisket.

Next take that trim (fat) and slice it like bacon but a little thicker. Place it on the rack above your brisket so as it renders out it will drip down on your brisket. At the 4 hour mark remove the fat when you change out your water bowel.

Here are picture of my brisket fat before and at the 4-5 hour mark.
Click to Enlarge

Now mind you I'm not into a lot of spices as Mother and my wife would shoot me. I use a couple types of peppers and salt only. After the 4 hour mark I will boat the briskets in foil so the juice will stay around them. Sometime I will add little apple juice then close up the boat and back into the smoker.

BTW I agree with Barry about the apple, he is on spot with his suggestions.

Olds