Salt Question

[JZ]

I've been looking through some of the recipes for Corned Beef and Pastrami and found something of interest. Most wet brine recipes call for either 1.5 or 2 cups of salt for 5 lbs of meat and from 5 tsp to 8 tsp of cure #1. However in Rytek Kutas's book he calls for 3/4 cup of salt for 25 lbs of meat which is 1/10th the amount of salt in the other recipes. He also calls for a little less cure #1, which ranges from 3.5 tsp for corned beef to 6.6 tsp for pastrami.

I am wondering if those low levels of salt are adequate (I am guessing so since this guy is an expert) and if so then maybe a soak in fresh water would not be necessary before smoking or cooking. I kind of like this idea since I think that soaking the meat in fresh water to draw out some of the salt would also draw out some of the spices.

Any thoughts on this?

[NePaSmoKer]

I've been looking through some of the recipes for Corned Beef and Pastrami and found something of interest. Most wet brine recipes call for either 1.5 or 2 cups of salt for 5 lbs of meat and from 5 tsp to 8 tsp of cure #1. However in Rytek Kutas's book he calls for 3/4 cup of salt for 25 lbs of meat which is 1/10th the amount of salt in the other recipes. He also calls for a little less cure #1, which ranges from 3.5 tsp for corned beef to 6.6 tsp for pastrami.

I am wondering if those low levels of salt are adequate (I am guessing so since this guy is an expert) and if so then maybe a soak in fresh water would not be necessary before smoking or cooking. I kind of like this idea since I think that soaking the meat in fresh water to draw out some of the salt would also draw out some of the spices.

Any thoughts on this?

Aint made his corned beast or pastrami yet. But you do know that Rytek died a couple years ago.

[JZ]

 

But you do know that Rytek died a couple years ago.

No I wasn't aware. Am now though and I did a google search for cause of death and can find nothing. Hoping it wasn't from one of his sausages or from a lengthy exposure to his craft and recipes. :o

[tskeeter]

JZ, my thoughts are along the lines of you are thinking.  If you can avoid the final soak step, you should avoid removing some of the spices.

I haven't done any homework, but the issue that came to my mind was how different authors balance brine concentrations vs. the length of the brining period.  Over more than 20 years working in food processing plants, I saw many situations where a longer duration allowed another variable to be lower.  For example, if you are pasteurizing milk, a short time at a high temperature has the same effect as a longer time at a lower temperature.  For milk, the high temperature, short time option allows fluid milk processors to avoid creating a cooked, custard like flavor in the milk.  So, the question becomes do the authors who use a high salt concentration call for a much shorter brining time than Kutas?

There are probably two schools of thought on brining.  The first would be that a long brine time makes the meat more mushy or that fast cycle time is important (think commercial meat processing), so a short brine time is desirable.  A short brine time would require a high salt concentration.  The second, that a low salt concentration is more forgiving and easier for the amateur to manage, so it is worth spending the additional time in the brining process.

A final thought.  Kutas devoted quite a bit of his book to discussing food safety.  This is a topic that gets limited coverage in most of the sausage making and smoking books I have.  This leads me to think that food safety was an important topic to Kutas, and one that he probably considered throughout his book.  In that light, I'd think that Kutas recommendations would adequately address the food safety issues.           

[NePaSmoKer]

Good book but its full of holes and left out things.

[JZ]

tskeeter .... I checked the recipes and oddly enough they call for similar cure times. Ruhlman suggests 3 days and Kutas suggests 3 - 4 days.

Kutas uses 1/10 the amount of salt and slightly less cure for the same process. I can understand a small variation but 10 times the amount of salt is huge. So if Kutas is right then a soak is likely not required after brining and the spice concentrations would not be reduced. That would also mean that the other authors are recommending 10 times the salt that is required. I doubt their recommendation is for flavor since they recommend a soak afterwards to remove excessive salt taste. So the real question is; are the other guys playing it ultra safe by recommending too much salt then soaking to get the desired taste or is the Kutas recommendation too low?

Rick      I always appreciate your input since you have a vast amount of sausage making / curing experience. No disrespect intended, but for those of us that are new to this and don't have the knowledge or experience you have; your comment about the book having holes or leaving things out doesn't really help us. Those variations of key safety ingredients are of concern to someone that doesn't have the experience or knowledge to make an informed decision. So we rely on the "experts" to guide us. I have read many of your responses and am convinced that you know this stuff and would really appreciate your comments on the lower salt and cure concentrations recommended by Kutas.

[pmmpete]

I think that the ingredients and procedures specified in the Rytek Kutas book will produce safe and tasty sausages.  However, a shortcoming of the book is that except for a short chapter on curing meat and nitrites at the beginning of the the book, the book doesn't explain the reasons for the ingredients and procedures specified in the recipes, or the science behind producing safe and tasty sausage.  I think these subjects are covered much better in Warren Andersons "Mastering the Craft of Making Sausage," which is also organized and written better than the Kutas book.

[JZ]

Thanks pmmpete. I haven't read the entire contents of either of the books I have, but when I see huge differences between 2 authors it raises a concern for me. One of them is not giving me the right or complete information or worse yet bad information.

I've had 1/2 of an outside round soaking in a wet brine (Ruhlman recipe for corned beef) for 6 days and just soaked it for 2 30 minute sessions and test fried a piece and it was WAY too salty. I am now soaking for another 30 minutes and likely another 30 after that. I really liked the flavor of the spices but the salt was just too much. So after 2hrs of soaking I think I will have soaked out a bunch of the pickle / spice flavor I like, just to get rid of the excessive salt. And I may have to soak it longer. Either the recipe calls for way to much salt or the extra days of curing have caused it to be too salty. Either way I am going to use much less salt next time or go back to the dry cure I used last time.

It seems to me that the Kutas recipe would be a better salt infusion for taste. Given my very limited experience with corned beef / pastrami curing (this is only my second one) it appears that the Kutas wet brine would produce a more palatable end result than the Ruhlman recipe (if the meat is brined for 6 days). I think that the Ruhlman recipe would still be way too salty even if I only soaked for 3 - 4 days as recommended.

Time to go upstairs and test fry another piece. Catch you later.

[pmmpete]

Recipes for fish smoking brines vary greatly in the salt concentration (degrees salometer) of the brine.  As a result, the length of time you need to soak fish of different thicknesses and oiliness in brines from those recipes also varies greatly.  If you stick with the amount of salt provided for in a new recipe, it may take some trial and error to figure out how long to soak different kinds of fish in the brine produced by that recipe.  This can result in some wasted or not-so-tasty batches of smoked fish until you figure out how specific kinds of fish need to be soaked in that recipe. 

In an effort to reduce the amount of trial and error required to figure out how to use a new fish smoking brine recipe, unless there appears to be a good reason for the salt concentration in the recipe, I usually adjust the salt and water components of a brine recipe to produce a concentration of 60 degrees salometer, which is a moderately concentrated brine.  1.567 pounds of salt in a gallon of water will produce a brine of 60 degrees salometer.  Based on a typical weight for table salt of 10 oz/cup, that is about 2.5 cups of table salt in a gallon of water.  Other kinds of salt have significantly different weights per cup.  I like brines of around 60 degrees salometer because I only need to soak the kinds of fish I usually smoke for an hour or so, and I know pretty accurately how long to soak different kinds of fish in a brine of this concentration.

Another way to reduce the amount of trial and error required to figure out how to use a new fish brine recipe is to calculate the concentration of salt in the recipe, and based on your experience with brine recipes with a variety of different concentrations, estimate how long a particular kind of fish should probably be soaked in that brine.  However, I find it easier to standardize the concentration of my fish smoking brines, as that reduces the number of variables.

You can follow a similar procedure with the amount of salt in sausage recipes.  Determine the percentage of salt by weight in sausage recipes you like, and if a new recipe you want to try has a higher or lower percentage of salt, unless there is a reason for the higher percentage of salt, consider adjusting the recipe to the salt percentage which you like.  By checking the percentage of salt in a new sausage recipe, you can avoid producing batches of sausage which are way saltier than you like, or which don't have nearly enough salt.

I haven't been smoking meat, but you could follow similar procedures when trying out a new meat smoking brine recipe.

[Habanero Smoker]

When using a sodium nitrate as a cure salt is important use salt to improve osmosis. The more salt the lower the brining times. From what I see; Ruhlman is not using the sodium nitrite to cure, but to add color, he is using a 10% brine; which is the solution needed to protect against bacteria that can cause botulism.

The main thing to take into account is that Rytek uses pickling salt, and Ruhlman uses Kosher salt, which I believe is Morton's brand. Also Kutas uses a lot more cure, which bumps his salt to little over one cup. So Rytek is using about 2.25 oz per quart, while Ruhlman is using around 4 oz; per quart. Rytek has almost half the salt, but he pump a 12 - 15% solution into the meat; which Ruhlman doesn't. Pumping the meat with the brine solution shortens the curing time, therefore you can expect similar brining times.

So they are two different and salfe recipes that will give you different flavors.

[NePaSmoKer]

Just said its full of holes like his videos. Take it how y'all want its no biggie.

I'll let the scientists haggle over whats right and wrong.

[Habanero Smoker]

One thing I forgot to add in my post; in these times the amount of salt can be reduced somewhat. Most brining and curing today is for flavor, and not preservation of meat. Every home has reliable refrigeration that can store meat safely at 40°F for short periods of time. Or freezers to store the food longer.

[JZ]

The main thing to take into account is that Rytek uses pickling salt, and Ruhlman uses Kosher salt, which I believe is Morton's brand. Also Kutas uses a lot more cure, which bumps his salt to little over one cup. So Rytek is using about 2.25 oz per quart, while Ruhlman is using around 4 oz; per quart. Rytek has almost half the salt, but he pump a 12 - 15% solution into the meat; which Ruhlman doesn't. Pumping the meat with the brine solution shortens the curing time, therefore you can expect similar brining times.

Thanks Habs. Is there a difference between Kosher and Pickling salts other than maybe weight. The comparison between the 2 authors recipes is not direct, since Kutas recipe is for 25 lbs and Ruhlmans is for 5 lbs. So what I did was to divide the Kutas recipe ingredients by 5 and then compare to Ruhlmans. If my calcs were right Kutas uses a lot less salt (1/10 the amount) and less cure #1 (3.5 tsp vs 5 tsp in Ruhlmans) per 5 lbs of meat. So if my cals are right Kutas uses less salt, less cure 1 and recommends a shorter brine time. One thing I didn't notice before was the Kutas is mixing the ingredients in 5 quarts of water for 25 lbs of meat and Ruhlman is mixing the ingredients in 4 quarts for 5 lbs of meat. So the cure 1 concentration in the Kutas brine is stronger and the salt concentration is less. Now I see where you are coming from.

Maybe that and the fact that Kutas recommends injecting the stronger cure 1 concentration is the reason for the lower salt and brine time. ???

So I took the Ruhlman brine (with a lot more salt) and injected it into the meat and left it for 5 days. That probably explains the intense salt taste I am getting. I soaked it for a total of 2 hrs last night and it was still too salty. Said to h*ll with it and went to bed.  Well I decided to make it into a pastrami and it is in the smoker right now. I will let you know how it turns out, tomorrow when I slice it. :)

[Habanero Smoker]

There is a difference in the weight of salt per volume. Pickling salt is finer grain and weighs about 10.2 ounce per cup, though I have read posts that in Canada pickling salt is like a coarse kosher salt. I believe Ruhlman uses Morton's Kosher which is 8 ounces per cup, but if he is using Diamond Crystal that weighs 4 ounces per cup. I have to look at the book, because I believe he mentions the brand of salt he uses. So if you used a finer grain salt, then what Ruhlman used, that also would increase your saltiness. When in come to salt it is best to measure by weight.

When you make the comparison of brine's don't go by the amount of weight that is in the recipe, but the amount of liquid and salt. Even though Ruhlman only uses a 5 pound piece of meat, the amount of brine he made is enough for around 20 pounds. Kutas does correctly indicate that amount of meat his brine will cure. Kutas uses a lot more cure, which will give his corn beef more of that "ham-like" flavor, and protection from food borne bacteria. He is using 1/3 cup (5.3 tablespoons) of cure #1. That is 3 times what Ruhlman is using. Ruhlman is using a small amount of cure for color only.

You are correct in your conclusion, that by injection the brine with the much higher salt solution and curing it in that solution for the same amount of curing time; it will definitely be a lot saltier. They are two different recipes using different brining techniques. If you only soaked it in the brine for the specified time you would have had a much better finished corned beef.

Often after smoking the saltiness will mellow a little bit more (I find that true for most cured meats and brined meats). When you soak, you should use a large quantity of water. For example for a 5 pound piece of meat I will use at least 3 gallons of water per soaking.

[JZ]

When you soak, you should use a large quantity of water. For example for a 5 pound piece of meat I will use at least 3 gallons of water per soaking.

I used about 2 gallons per soak since that was the biggest container I had. But after 4 30 minute soaks I would have hoped that was enough. I even ran water into the soak container during the last soak. But I guess if too much salt is injected into the poor thing it will be very difficult to get it back out. Oh something else I did was during the last day of soaking I sucked the air out of the vac container that it was in. That probably made things worse too. :(

So here is a pic of the "Salty One".



And it is still way too salty to use for sammies (the intended purpose) :'(. Now I will have to figure out what to use it for. Since I have never tried corned beef hash I was thinking now might be a good time to try it. I also noticed the flavor was not as intense as I expected. Likely due to the 2 hr soaking. Live and learn.

I realize now that this is posted in the wrong section.