Collagen casings and hot water bath--not compatible?

[drano]

I was searching casings last nite and saw something about collagen casings don't work well for smoking then finishing in a hot water bath.
Why is that?  Wrinkles bad, gives a bad taste, or something else?
I just got my 22 qt roaster oven, and was planning to make some snack sticks in collagen casings, and finish them off in the roaster.  Was also planning on hot water bath in the future for smoked kielbasa, ring bologna, etc. 
If its looks, that won't bother me.  But if it causes a bad taste, thats obviously an issue.

Please reply with what issues are created when hot bathing collagen.
Thanks
drano

[Tenpoint5]

The water will leach through the casings and the casings will separate from the sticks.

[SiFumar]

The water will leach through the casings and the casings will separate from the sticks.

What he said.....water logged meat not good.  Can finish them in dehydrator if you have one.

[drano]

Thanks for clearing that up. 
I'll get my 900 watt finned element installed in the next week, and see how it shortens my cook time on the sticks--I keep a log so I can compare. 
Guess I'll have to experiment with hog casings for smoked kielbasa or ring bologna if I want the hot water route.

I've seen a little bit on cellulose, but most vendors sell them in bulk. 

[Sailor]

Thanks for clearing that up. 
I'll get my 900 watt finned element installed in the next week, and see how it shortens my cook time on the sticks--I keep a log so I can compare. 
Guess I'll have to experiment with hog casings for smoked kielbasa or ring bologna if I want the hot water route.

I've seen a little bit on cellulose, but most vendors sell them in bulk.

Hot water bath for hog casing, fibrous and cellulose casing work just fine.  Collagen don't work so pretty good for the above reasons.  You can pick up single sleeves of cellulose casing from Allied Kenco http://www.alliedkenco.com/230.aspx.  I find with shipping that the cost per sleeve is pretty high.  If you can find some of the guys that want to split a case the cost per sleeve goes way down and is pretty inexpensive. 

I really like to use the cellulose casings as they make a great skinless hot dog or kielbasa for those that are not big on the bite of a hog casing. 

[NePaSmoKer]

Ahhh Grasshopper


You can hot water the collagen.

[Tenpoint5]

Ahhh Grasshopper


You can hot water the collagen.

I know that but if I am going to wait until the protiens bond in the smoker I am a gonna finish them in the smoker!

[SiFumar]

Rick...with collagen you would have to make sure ends are tied off tightly so water does not seep in?

[NePaSmoKer]

Rick...with collagen you would have to make sure ends are tied off tightly so water does not seep in?

If you squeeze some meat at the end of the casing the water wont go past that point, like a meat glued end. Smoke the sticks first so the meat squished end will be closed. I dont think just tying the end would keep the water out unless you used some smaller type of heat barrier casing.

Some Casing info.

Collagen

Collagen casings are mainly produced from the collagen in beef or pig hides, and the bones and tendons. It can also be derived from poultry and fish. They have been made for more than 50 years and their share of the market has been increasing. Usually the cost to produce sausages in collagen is significantly lower than making sausages in gut because of higher production speeds and lower labor requirements.

The collagen for artificial casings is processed extensively and, as a raw material, it is similar to bread dough prior to final production. It is then extruded through a die to the desired diameter, dried and shirred into short sticks up to 41 cm long that contain as much as 50m of casing. In a newer process, a form of dough is coextruded with the meat blend, and a coating is formed by treating the outside with a calcium solution to set the coating.

The latest generation of collagen casings are usually more tender than natural casings but do not exhibit the "snap" or "bite" of natural casing sausages. The biggest volume of collagen casings are edible, but a special form of thicker collagen casings is used for salamis and large caliber sausages where the casing is usually peeled off the sausage by the consumer. Collagen casings are permeable to smoke and moisture, are less expensive to use, give better weight and size control, and are easier to run when compared to natural casings.
Cellulose

Cellulose, usually from cotton linters, is similarly processed into a paste and extruded into clear, tough casings for making wieners and franks. They also are shirred for easier use and can be treated with dye to make "red hots". The casing is peeled off after cooking, resulting in "skinless" franks. Cellulose fibers are combined with wood pulp to make large diameter fibrous casings for bologna, cotto salami, smoked ham and other products sliced for sandwiches. This type is also permeable to smoke and water vapor. They can be flat or shirred, depending on application, and can be pretreated with smoke, caramel color, or other surface treatments.
Plastic casings

Plastic casings are extruded like most other plastic products. They also can be flat or shirred. Generally, smoke and water do not pass through the casing, so plastic is used for non-smoked products where high yields are expected. The inner surface can be laminated or co-extruded with a polymer with an affinity for meat protein causing the meat to stick to the film, resulting in some loss when the casing is peeled, but higher overall yield due to better moisture control.

[SiFumar]

Thanks Rick...always good to know!(your secrets  ;D)  And always like getting information to expand my limited knowledge.

[drano]

Rick,
So to make sure I understand what you're saying ('caus simple communication is never simple), if I leave some empty casing at each end, then pinch tight up against the meat, that will seal off as it is in the smoker and be good for a water bath? 
If the hot water bath works as well as others have said, I'd like to use it for snack sticks, ring bologna, summer sausage, kielbasa, and smoked brats. 
If I can water bath collagen, that would be great.  If that means its smarter to do longer loops rather than "ring" bologna, that would be workable.   
Thanks
drano