Beef?

[maxon8]

I am not sure if there is a polite way of asking this but I will ask anyway. I live in the UK and source all my beef from Scotland. I mainly buy best Aberdeen Angus steak pieces. This is fresh unpacked beef; no plastic vacuum packing, no gas, no mechanical or chemical tenderising, no drugs, just pure quality and fully traceable back to the farm it came from. For those Bradley owners living in the US and Canada I am interested to know if the beef you are using  is of a similar quality to what I buy in the UK or is of the mass market tenderised and vacuum packed stuff that I keep away from in the UK. The reason I ask is that there is an enormous difference in quality and taste, this is something that I have not seen discussed on the forum but feel it can only be relevant as to how good your smoked beef turns out. I await any comments with interest. Maxon8

[manxman]

Hi maxon8,

If you have a nose around you will find some posts regarding meat quality, the issues in the US seem to be similar to those in the UK regarding meat quality.

I seem to remember Olds gave an explanation of USDA meat grades at some stage, I found this quite an interesting site:

www.ams.usda.gov/howtobuy/meat.htm

There are also a few posts on ageing meat which are interesting, wet ageing against dry ageing for example.

I am not sure what the differences are between chemicals, steroids and antibiotics approved for use in the US and UK are but I understand there are significant differences? It would be quite interesting to compare between the two countries.

Like you I am lucky, I live on the Isle of Man and we produce much of our own meat, there are a couple of outstanding butchers and each carcass is fully traceable back to the farm it came from. In several instances I know the farmers personally, have even worked on one of the farms and occasionally get a lamb carcass directly from the farmer.

I think the issue of quality, albeit it at a premium in terms of cost, against low cost, mass produced and processed meat is an issue on both sides of the pond, as I said in a recent post I think that is one reason wht farmer's markets are becoming more popular. More and more people want quality over the mass produced mediocre quality stuff we see so often in supermarkets.

And as with so many things in life, rubbish in equates to rubbish out, it is impossible to make poor quality meat good simply by smoking, curing, marinading or whatever else you try and do!!

[Habanero Smoker]

Most meat in the U.S. is butchered, packed and distributed by a few commercial packagers. More often then not, meat from the supermarkets, restaurants and many local butchers, come from one of these main processing plants. My understanding is that these packers obtained their meat from large farms that use chemicals, steroids and antibiotics approved for use in the US. I have a friend who became vegetarian not because she did not like meat, but due to the conditions in which animals are raised and chemicals they feed them.

But there are more and more small farmers turning to grass and organic feed to raise their livestock, and having their meat butchered locally. Fortunately I just learned there was such a coop near where I live http://www.valleyfarmers.com/bio.htm .

[maxon8]

I would like to thank you for your replies. I think the ability to understand quality in terms of what to buy and where to buy it from is a grey area particularly when you put into the equation what the supermarkets now throw at the consumer. I am fortunate in the fact that as a family we have three generation of knowledge relating to the food industry. The view we have is quite simple; the majority of consumers are being misled, in the process becoming trapped within an illusion of buying apparent quality. If one can break away from this then from my experience a far better product can be found at the same sort of price and in some cases less.

Maxon8

[manxman]

the majority of consumers are being misled, in the process becoming trapped within an illusion of buying apparent quality. If one can break away from this then from my experience a far better product can be found at the same sort of price and in some cases less

I totally agree with you, and the animals get treated better too! Don't have a problem eating meat at all but I do believe animals should be treated humanely and with compassion whilst alive. Plus less stressed equals better flavour!  ;)

[whitetailfan]

Personally I'm very happy with my beef.  Either me or my Dad will have shot it, and I personally cut and wrapped it.

We don't use hormones, but otherwise all animals receive necessary vaccinations and medically necessary treatment.  Not sure what 'chemicals' anyone is referring to.

In general there should be nothing wrong with meat quality regarding fresh cuts of whole muscle meat.  There are millions of cattle slaughtered each year.  Assume that perhaps there is a 20% cull rate of breeding stock, then you have about 17% of the total meat for sale coming from older cattle.  Consider the amount of ground burger pre-formed patties, hot dogs, bologna, sausage rings etc that is sold, you can see where the old animals go.  Any decent looking supermarket meat should be from an animal in the 18-24 month age range.

It's great if you have access to meat that you feel comfortable with regarding guaranteed quality because you have been on the farm or know the owners.  If you are an average city dude I don't think you have to be worried about your meat quality.

Hope this is in line with your question, if I did not catch the drift of the post, rephrase it a bit and I'll post again I've got lots to say ;)

[whitetailfan]

Also, could someone expand on what they are talking about regarding the treatment of animals???

I'll discuss organics too, if someone wants to provide their definition.  I think organic certification varies greatly from region to region, so I don't want to make assumptions.

[manxman]

Hi whitetailfan,

I agree regarding organic farming, there seem to be significant variations on what the definition of "organic" is, call me cynical but in this day and age much of it seems to be an opportunity for supermarkets to cash in on a label and little more!

Conversely, there are a significant number of good quality reputable organic producers, IMHO the trick is to find one that you know and trust the quality whether the food is organic or not.

With regards to actual treatment of animals I would give an example. There is a beef producer for a major supermarket chain in the UK who rears his cattle and when they are approaching the slaughter date ships them 300+ miles in cramped conditions up to Scotland purely so it can appear on supermarket shelves as "Scottish" beef.

The cattle are packed tighly into wagons for the journey which will take several hours with little or no chance for food,water or exercise and hence become highly stressed.

As well as the moral aspect of this it has an effect on meat quality. Stress = adrenaline production which will affect both the tenderness and keeping quality of fresh meat, I am not an expert but this link explains it better than I ever could:

www.grandin.com/meat/cattle/cattle.meat.html

There are plenty of other examples, intensive chicken farming where the chickens leg muscles are so weak they cannot stand and the death rate from heart and other organ failure is in double figures percentage wise.

I could not be a vegetarian for the life of me but conversely I do believe that animals should be treated with compassion, dignity or whatever rather than just a commodity. I also think that vastly improves the taste!  ;D

[whitetailfan]

Hey Manx,

call me cynical but in this day and age much of it seems to be an opportunity for supermarkets to cash in on a label and little more!

Actually Manx I think organics is a way to cash in Huge, not just a little more ;).  I would estimate Big O, and not the fun O, probably goes for double or triple the equivalent food item.  O Fruit is crazy expensive here.  I do not buy it.  Not for price, I just don't believe in it.

There is a beef producer for a major supermarket chain in the UK who rears his cattle and when they are approaching the slaughter date ships them 300+ miles in cramped conditions up to Scotland purely so it can appear on supermarket shelves as "Scottish" beef.

The cattle are packed tighly into wagons for the journey which will take several hours with little or no chance for food,water or exercise and hence become highly stressed.

I would not defend this guy outright, because I don't have enough info.  I do feel this is an underhanded way to get more money, but it happens in North America all the time.  You can stamp something Canadian or USA as long as it was killed there and perhaps even just packaged.

I will however assume that these cattle have at least another 30-60 days to live after shipping.  I don't know how close they are to slaughter of course, but assume.  The reason I say this is exactly what you are saying and the article speaks to about stress.  An overnight stand at an auction or any cattle liner hauling will create stress and amounts to about a 4% or greater 'shrinkage'.  If this guy is so profit driven, I don't think he would allow for the animals to be taken to market or slaughtered without recovery time.  He would need to get the weights back up and reduce the stress to get good grading on the carcasses.

Are there local slaughter facilities to handle the amount of cattle he has?  Possible just the logistics of your meat market.

I live in the heart of the Alberta feedlot belt.  There are some plants in Canada, but with our location so close to the border, a huge percentage of cattle get shipped to American slaughter plants.  Economies of scale have removed local slaughter houses.  Yes you and I can source out local meat and butchers, but in all the households in North America I can't even dream up the percentage of meat that moves through no more than a dozen slaughter plants.

Just my 2 cents.

[manxman]

Hi whitetailfan,

all the households in North America I can't even dream up the percentage of meat that moves through no more than a dozen slaughter plants.

Of course you are right, that percentage will be very high as it will be in the UK.

I am spoilt, I live on an island 32miles by 12 miles wide, we have a thriving meat (and fish) industry that exports to restaurants in London and Paris and the animals graze on hill farms and never have more than 20 miles to travel to a modern underutilised slaughter house. They are optimum conditions for meat production and in the real world economies of scale dictate this would not be practical.

Similar small set ups exist up and down the UK with family run slaughterhouses, as I am sure they do in the US and Canada but they are the exception.,

IMO there is always a balance to be struck but I feel that in general animals are treated as a profit driven commodity and that balance in general has drifted too far away from what is acceptable.

Or perhaps had........ I think the pendulum is gradually swinging back the other way because of legislation and public demand, people seem to be keen to return to "old fashion" quality. All very well but again producers will see it as simply another way of cashing in!! At least it may improve animal welfare generally!!

Think you and I are on the same side, perhaps you are just a bit more practical tham me!

Now where did I put that fillet steak for this evenings meal. Come to that...... WHERE'S THE BL**DY DOG!!!! ::) ::)

[Habanero Smoker]

In the context of what I posted, organic meat is meat the is raised without hormones and antibiotic, and fed grass/feed grown without pesticide (chemicals) in fields that have been pesticide free for at least 5 years.

At this time I get my meat from supermarkets and Sam's, but I have been thinking of alternative sources, and I am fortunate enough to have a choice. This is not to say that I am against anyone who purchase their meat that has come from a farm factory, and a major slaughter house. I realize that is not practical, or within someones budget. I want to emphasize that I am not talking about the small farm(er).

I think that others should know that their is a movement out there by small farmers to bring a better product to the consumer. To me it is all about choice, and not judgement.

In a few weeks, I will be able to pick organic strawberries that are grown about 1.5 miles from me. Those will cost me less then what I could purchase at any supermarket. So organic is not always more expensive. I am also fortunate in that I live near an organic dairy farm that still bottles milk in glass jars. That milk, I will admit is more expensive, but I gladly pay the extra cost (including deposit on the bottle).

[asa]

Speaking of organic beef, we can get "grass-fed" beef from a local farmer. It is my impression that this is a lot leaner than other beef one is liable to find at the market. So, do really lean meats lend themselves to smoking, or should they just be blasted at high temp for a short period of time. I guess you could combine those two techniques by smoking for a while at low temp and then blasting it. How do you hunters do something like venison (I have some of that too, in the freezer) - isn't that pretty lean as well?
     asa

[Habanero Smoker]

Grass fed meat is leaner, and there is less marbling, but with any meat that you smoke, the method will depend on the cut. Most meat that lends itself to good barbecuing are those cuts with a lot of connective tissue, so I would smoke both using the same method. When I purchase some I will post my findings. I may check to see what is available right now, and purchase a few cuts, before deciding if I want to purchase a 1/2 or 1/4.

[maxon8]

The reason for my post BEEF? was to test the water and to see how well this subject is understood if at all. The view that I have is very simple, it you put the time and skill into something you believe in then it has to be equalled by the materials  used in order to establish a correct foundation from which to work. In this particular case it is about the art of smoking. As I understand many people involved in smoking are trying create a unique finished product, however  I can only feel that if the base material is sub standard then the overall effort and finished product will be affected.

The only way around this negative is to re-educate oneself and in the process understand what is going on in turn getting the best out of your smoker. From my experience  mass market meat just does not go with the skill of smoking. Mass market poultry, pork and ham all contain excessive amounts of water due to water injection in order to up the weights by 20% and more in turn altering the whole cooking process, taste, texture and price structure. The beef is mostly aged in its own blood within the vacuum packing and is not allowed to breath and once all these products reach the shelf in cut portions they are either vacuum packed again or placed in gas filled clear top containers that artificially preserves the product. If you then take into account that the beef is mechanically or as I understand chemically tenderised by giving the animal an injection before slaughter then surely all this interference along with what you have already  mentioned, feed, antibiotics, travel-stress etc., has to have a negative effect. I do not think it unreasonable to question how much better the finished smoked product might be if one sources the raw material without all this added interference in the process giving a true datum from which to cook / smoke. Ultimately the supermarket /  corporate structure is working on the repetitive formula  of drawing you in, breaking down your principles and beliefs in the process misleading you into thinking that they offer you the best by which time the competition has been put out of business and and your freedom of choice has gone along with any comparison. This is a very powerful and destructive mechanism that works through family generations and does the exact opposite to what it appears, it only brings down standards in every way. No matter what the supermarkets say about the quality of the products they sell; ultimately there is only a limited amount of true top quality produce in the food chain very little of which they market, which means the only thing they offer is mediocrity and the rest is hype / marketing.

At the opposite end we have ORGANIC. Some people seem to think this means quality but in reality not all organic products give satisfaction. Much of it depends how dedicated the farmer is and how much he wants to exploit the word organic. A lot of the meat offered is very good, at a price so what is the alternative. Well, the meat industry has changed massively over the last number of years so for the small scale buyer it is a matter of going hunting. The one source in UK worth looking at is the specialised small butcher / bacon cure - pork butcher and game dealer selling mainly to top end hotels and restaurants. If you are lucky they will fall towards specialised / organic end of the market. The products will be fresh, no vacuum packing equipment, no freezers or band saws, just a cool room full of quarters of beef, whole lambs and whole pigs and nothing hidden. If you are able to find this type of establisment then you might well be on the right track. If you are able to buy three months supply in bulk at a discount trade price, do the finishing and packing yourself and home freeze for a short time only you should end up spending less money and have a better product to work with. In the UK that is about the only choice we are left with other than rearing your own stock. As I say the supermarket have wiped out competition.

If anyone has any better suggestions or think that I am talking rubbish then say so!.

maxon8

[TomG]

Max, do you think the UK's experience with a couple of old mad cows has changed the market and it's willingness to pay more for a "safer" product and consequently made small scale organic meat production a viable economic concept?