How to roast a beef shoulder clod.

[alseguin]

Hello everybody. I just bought my first Bradley Smoker on sale at Canadian tire  for $299. I finally bit the bullet and went for it (BTIS1). I already have ordered the parts for the digital controller having read many recommendations here. That is not the question but just an intro to the excitement I have for doing a beef shoulder clod at a family reunion at the end of August. I have lots of time to practice for the 60-70 people coming.

I have read hundreds of ways to prepare this cut of beef and find myself more confused then when I started. The idea came from tasting it at the curling club. The cook there told me that they just put it in an ovev at 350, sprinkled with onion soup mix and water in the pan to an internal temp of 135 (about 3 1/2 hours). I admit it was good but I am apprehensive about the instructions and besides I want to use my Bradley.

I want the roast to be SLICED and not PULLED. I want to cook to medium rare. Actually for 60 people I expect to be smoking/cooking 3 of them in the Bradley.

Here are the options I am considering .... if you have a better idea please feel free to suggest.

1:
I have read about pineapple enzymes and wonder if I should inject into the connective tissues before smoking to have a guaranteed result. I am thinking of buying a fresh pineapple, putting it in the blender and filtering out the solids to inject along with some garlic and a little soya sauce. I will also use a rub. Then smoking at 225 - 250 till internal temp of 135.

2:
I have read that slow cooking at 150 to an internal temp of 130 - 135 for a long period of time will break down those nasty tissues without going over the 150 mark which breaks down the good guys in the meat. I am a little wary of bacteria at that cooking  temperature. If that works then maybe the pineapple enzymes are not needed or will turn the meat to mush.

3:
I have looked into how to butcher the clod in order to remove the connective tissues that toughen the meat. The idea would be to tie it all back together after the unwanted tissues are  removed. Smoking in smaller pieces could also be done but I don't want any discrimination on who gets the best parts like the flatiron steaks LOL.

Does anyone have any opinion on the ideas I am considering so that the family still remain on good terms when the food is served?

[beefmann]

welcome aboard,

as for a beef clod, i would cut it into 1/4's  to make it easier to handle and spread out the meat a bit, Also this will lesson cooking time a bit as not such a big piece to cook, easier to handle and slice,

I have heard that pineapple enzymes also help to break down the connective tissue , give it a try along with the rest of your recipe

recommend cooking / smoking at a box temp of 225 Till an internal temp of 135-150 your choice on internal temp with  no more then 4 hours of smoke, also use apple, maple or oak considering your using pineapple which is sweet. however i would start off with 2 to 3 hours of smoke till you  fine what you  like in smoke flavoring,,, hickory and  misquite ave very strong woods strong  smoke flavors if you are gonna  use these,,, would do less then two hours unless you  like a strong smoke flavor.


i do not recommend cooking at a box temp of 150 because of the chance of spoilage of the meat,,, cook it at a  higher temp and get through the danger zone..the danger zone is between 40 and 145 ( if memory serves right ) and longer then 4 hours before refrigeration   or cooking to a  higher temp

the 4 rack can handle up to 40 lbs of meat  fairly easy as a  reference,, if you are doing this for  60 - 70 people id figure 3/4 to 1 lb per lb raw per person, cooked weight  can vary by cut of meat

hope this helps
Beef

[alseguin]

Beefmann ... thanks for your input. I might just cut it up into pieces but if I do that then I might have easier access to the connective tissue to remove it. My wholesale supplier  recommended 1/2 pound per person so will go with that plus a little extra.
I am hoping to hear from someone who has tried the pineapple trick.
Regards.

[beefmann]

your welcome, and go with a half pound per person hope it all works out for you, enjoy and good luck

[Habanero Smoker]

Hi alseguin;

Welcome to the forum.

The enzymes in pineapple juice (also papaya and some other fruits and vegetable), also have the tendency to make meat mushy; so if you use that use care because it will break down all proteins.

From the sources that I've read, connective tissue does not start to break down into collagen until an internal temperature of around 160°F is reached. So I don't believe that cooking at 150°F will not break down the connective tissue. There are different types of connective tissue. The major distinct groups are those that connect cells and tissues together, and those that connect muscle groups to one another, or to bone, ligaments etc.  The latter is visible, and most of it is called silver skin. Silver skin can be remove by cutting it away, but the connective tissue that connects individual cell together, can not be removed by trimming. Though it is best to get rid of any silver skin, because that does not break down, and only becomes very tough and elastic.

I would follow beefman's suggestion of breaking it down into smaller muscle groups. Smoke/roast to 135°F, slice very thin across the grain; which should make it "tender". I would not use the pineapple juice, especially if you are slicing.

[alseguin]

Habanero,
Thank you for your insights. I think (maybe I'm wrong) that the tissue that doesn't break down and is unseen (so cannot be cut out), probably results in the "pulled beef/pork" kind of product where everything just falls apart. That is not what I am looking for. If you remember I said that the cook at the curling club just braised it at 350 for 3 hours or so and as a taster .... it was pretty good. I am just a little wary of what he has told me vs everything I've read. Most clods run around 5kg and it is hard to experiment with them since we are only 2 people  and would end up eating our mistakes for the next month LOL.

Being careful with the pineapple juice is really what I want to know. What does that mean? How much do I use to be careful? So I am hoping that someone has tried injecting it (just prior to smoking) without marinating to see what happened.

I do not want to bring the meat over 135 in order to keep it juicy and sliceable like a more expensive cut so I am hoping that cutting out the visable connective tissues along with the slow cooking/smoking will create bliss to the palate. I know that although this cut is less tender, it is also more flavourful so I hope to exploit the flavour and conquer the leather. I remember when flank steak was cheap and ground up for hamburger meat ..... now the price for flank around here is close to tenderloin!! It kind of reminds me of when lobster was a low class food and people closed their windows so the neighbours wouldn't know what they were eating ..... look what happened there LOL.

Kind regards for your input,
Alan

[Ka Honu]

Don't know that I've ever seen clod served rare or medium rare and am guessing that the reason is because it's a tough cut that needs the low slow heat to break down the connective tissue.  Braising, smoking or roasting (or a combination of all three) is your choice.  I'm not much for brining beef but would consider injecting it with some  beef bullion-based liquid.  Cook slowly until IT is somewhere between 160 and 185-190 (I'd go for the upper end but you want it rarer than I think it should be) and it will still slice.

[alseguin]

Ka,

Thank you for your input. You are with the majority of people who cook the !@#$ out of it to "pulled" status. I know it's good like that for sandwiches etc but I am determined to try a med rare cook holding the temp around 135 for as long as I can to break down the tissue. Whatever I do, I will report back in August after  the  experiment. Remember that I've tasted it cooked quick to 135 according to what I was told ... and it was pretty good (if what they told me was true). If they had a secret and revealed it, they would have had to kill me ... but I was a good curler so they didn't want to lose me, LOL.
Alan

[Ka Honu]

You'd be able to slice rather than pull as long as you stay below about 190-195 (most of us go to about 185 for slicing brisket and 200-205 for pulling) but it will not be medium which is what you seem to be looking for.  Hope it all works out (and if it doesn't, you can always throw it back in the smoker, oven, or crockpot and "cook the !@#$ out of it ").

[Habanero Smoker]

Habanero,
Thank you for your insights. I think (maybe I'm wrong) that the tissue that doesn't break down and is unseen (so cannot be cut out), probably results in the "pulled beef/pork" kind of product where everything just falls apart. That is not what I am looking for. If you remember I said that the cook at the curling club just braised it at 350 for 3 hours or so and as a taster .... it was pretty good. I am just a little wary of what he has told me vs everything I've read. Most clods run around 5kg and it is hard to experiment with them since we are only 2 people  and would end up eating our mistakes for the next month LOL.

Being careful with the pineapple juice is really what I want to know. What does that mean? How much do I use to be careful? So I am hoping that someone has tried injecting it (just prior to smoking) without marinating to see what happened.

I do not want to bring the meat over 135 in order to keep it juicy and sliceable like a more expensive cut so I am hoping that cutting out the visable connective tissues along with the slow cooking/smoking will create bliss to the palate. I know that although this cut is less tender, it is also more flavourful so I hope to exploit the flavour and conquer the leather. I remember when flank steak was cheap and ground up for hamburger meat ..... now the price for flank around here is close to tenderloin!! It kind of reminds me of when lobster was a low class food and people closed their windows so the neighbours wouldn't know what they were eating ..... look what happened there LOL.

Kind regards for your input,
Alan

You are misunderstanding my description of connective tissue, but for this discussion it doesn't matter; I just wanted to point out that just trimming the connective tissue you can see; such as silver skin, tendons etc, is not going to make you meat any tender. It is similar to removing the back membrane of the rib. You get rid of the tough connective tissue which doesn't break down, but because there is so much connective tissue within the muscle, you will still have tough ribs if you don't cook them right.

As for the pineapple juice, I don't use it, and I can't picture myself experimenting with it in the future. It tends to make meat mushy, and I'm sort of particular about the texture of my meat. If you are breaking the whole clod into its individual muscle groups, try experimenting with using pineapple juice with one small piece. Inject it, cook it in the Bradley to see how it turns out. If it works, then treat the others the same way. If it doesn't work, or makes the meat too mushy or mushy in parts;  then you will have a better idea of whether you want to use it or not.

If the cook brought his to 135°F, and that is your goal; you will need to cut it very thing and across the grain. As Ka Honu mentioned, if it is still tough, you can further cook it.

[alseguin]

Habanero,
Thank you for your insights. I think (maybe I'm wrong) that the tissue that doesn't break down and is unseen (so cannot be cut out), probably results in the "pulled beef/pork" kind of product where everything just falls apart. That is not what I am looking for. If you remember I said that the cook at the curling club just braised it at 350 for 3 hours or so and as a taster .... it was pretty good. I am just a little wary of what he has told me vs everything I've read. Most clods run around 5kg and it is hard to experiment with them since we are only 2 people  and would end up eating our mistakes for the next month LOL.

Being careful with the pineapple juice is really what I want to know. What does that mean? How much do I use to be careful? So I am hoping that someone has tried injecting it (just prior to smoking) without marinating to see what happened.

I do not want to bring the meat over 135 in order to keep it juicy and sliceable like a more expensive cut so I am hoping that cutting out the visable connective tissues along with the slow cooking/smoking will create bliss to the palate. I know that although this cut is less tender, it is also more flavourful so I hope to exploit the flavour and conquer the leather. I remember when flank steak was cheap and ground up for hamburger meat ..... now the price for flank around here is close to tenderloin!! It kind of reminds me of when lobster was a low class food and people closed their windows so the neighbours wouldn't know what they were eating ..... look what happened there LOL.

Kind regards for your input,
Alan

You are misunderstanding my description of connective tissue, but for this discussion it doesn't matter; I just wanted to point out that just trimming the connective tissue you can see; such as silver skin, tendons etc, is not going to make you meat any tender. It is similar to removing the back membrane of the rib. You get rid of the tough connective tissue which doesn't break down, but because there is so much connective tissue within the muscle, you will still have tough ribs if you don't cook them right.

As for the pineapple juice, I don't use it, and I can't picture myself experimenting with it in the future. It tends to make meat mushy, and I'm sort of particular about the texture of my meat. If you are breaking the whole clod into its individual muscle groups, try experimenting with using pineapple juice with one small piece. Inject it, cook it in the Bradley to see how it turns out. If it works, then treat the others the same way. If it doesn't work, or makes the meat too mushy or mushy in parts;  then you will have a better idea of whether you want to use it or not.

If the cook brought his to 135°F, and that is your goal; you will need to cut it very thing and across the grain. As Ka Honu mentioned, if it is still tough, you can further cook it.

That sounds like a plan. I think I'll get a smaller inexpensive roast this week and experiment with it.

[alseguin]

THE STALL

I have just read one of the most interesting articles regarding what is called the "stall" and the cause for the meat to stop rising in temperature for a significant period of time. I am passing on the link that I am sure will be helpful for those future competition winning chefs.

http://www.amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/the_stall.html

[Pachanga]

Nothing to add to this excellent discussion except total agreement with the responses.

Pachanga

[alseguin]

This shouldn't be under beef clod theme but since we had such a great discussion on cooking methods etc, I wanted to tell you about the results from my first hot smoke.

The aim was NOT to have pulled pork but something similar to what I want for the beef clod.  Something that is tender and can be sliced. This should be a good test ... same shoulder - different animal. They do the same thing to both. Cook the !@#$ out of it till until you can eat it with a fork.

Pork shoulder was on sale for $2.99 lb so I picked up a 3.5 pound piece (the smallest), pork back ribs (also on sale) and a small fillet of Atlantic Salmon just for me since the wife won't eat fish even if it had four legs. Then I had fun with the Bradley. I started the ribs and roast in the smoker while I brined the salmon for 20 minutes and waited 2 hours for pelicule to form then threw that in too.

Smoked the meat at around 220 till it hit 150 IT. I figured the ribs would be done since they were much thinner than the roast shoulder. Not so, ribs maintained same temp as the roast all the way through the whole thing.

When it hit 150 I wrapped the ribs and the shoulder in foil. It took another 2 hours to hit 170 then I took it out and left it where animals wouldn't find it. It slowly went up to about 175 in another hour when it started to cool down slowly. Another hour later it was falling below 150 so I wrapped everything in plastic wrap and threw it into the fridge overnight till today.

Yahoo! Sliced thinly the roast is like a deli cut and I plan to serve it cold with hot drippings gravy "au jus"  over it.  I knew it... it doesn't have to cooked to around 200  to be delicious and tender.

Cheers.

PS: I injected about 3 tablespoons of pineapple juice(fresh) mixed with garlic juice(2 cloves fresh).

oh yes ... the salmon came out a lot sooner and is curing in the fridge for a couple of days before I get the surprise.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200714236031434&l=dfb230cab7

[pondee]

Or, how NOT to cook a shoulder clod (which, I assume is the same thing as a chuck roast).  4 hours of mesquite is too long, too strong.  An IT of 165 is not enough to have the meat come out tender and not too fatty.  5 hours at 225 is not long enough.  FTC can keep a 4.5 pound roast warm for a very long time. (0ver 4 hours).

Tasted too much like smoke and not enough like beef.  Was still tough and fatty. Moist, not dry, however.  Had a nice outer bark using Montreal steak as a rub.  We'll try again later.  Tips and kind suggestions are welcome