HELP First try Pepperoni Sticks with Bradley Original Smoker like rubber

[RHOUSER]

I used a beef pepperoni stick recipe found on this site and the meat was the good part of this thing.  I used collagen casings for both a small diameter stick and a 32 mm version.  In both of these I didn't like the casings when it was done.  Too Chewy, No Snap.  With the small (17 mm) casings all I could taste was the skin.  The 32 mm casing was better because at least I could find some meet while I chewed the Collagen into submission.
 
Are Natural Skins any better and what size casings are people using to make snack sticks?
Did I some how manage to cook this sausage in a manner that made the collagen casings turn into rubber inner tubes?

The sausage itself was pretty good and very Pepperoni like.  I may lighten up on the 2 hours of smoke, but, after a week in the fridge they have settled down pretty well.

[fuzzy1]

I think before anyone can comment too much about what might be wrong, you'll have to give a bit more information as to what you did.

[RHOUSER]

I used cooking times suggested by Sailor but converted to Aubreyese:
c1 130 e1  80 min (drying the sausage during c1 and c2)
c2 130 e2  40 min R1 = c2  (turn on the smoke generator and advance 2 pucks at 20 min intervals)
c3 140 e3 120 min R2 = c3 (smoker on and puck moves into burn)
c4 150 e4 120 min
c5 160 e5 120 min
c6 170 e6  t 149  alarm set meat probe alarm 150

I used Apple bisquettes (spelling?).

Sausage recipe:

2.5 lb ground beef
- 1/2 Tsp cure #1
-1 ½ tsp salt
- 1/2 tsp Crushed Red pepper
- 1 tsp Fennel Seed
- 1/2 tsp Anise Seed
- 1 tsp Mustard Seed
- 1/2 tsp Garlic powder
- 1 1/2 tsp Black pepper
- 3 ounces of ice water
1/2 tsp of Italian Seasoning (optional)

I stuffed the meat mixture into 16 mm Mahogany Casings from Sausage Maker and 32 mm Collagen for fresh sausage just to try the 32 mm.

I pulled them at 150 and dropped them in cold water.  I bloomed them for about two hours on the counter, then put them in zip-lock and into the refrigerator for about 10 days.

If I peel them, I really like the flavor of the meat (spouse suggested dropping the smoke a little).  With the casing, they eat all right, but the casing is just Really Chewy (if that's a word).  I have used collagen casings to make fresh sausages, but, didn't have this issue.

It may just be that I won't like the smoked collagen casings, but, I suspect I did something.

thanks rch

[Sailor]

I never have given snack stixs a cold water bath and that may be the problem.  When you stuff the 19mm casings and smoke them you are bonding the protein in the meat to the casing.  I would think that when you give them a bath you are breaking the casing/meat bond and reverting to chewing on a raw casing.  I know that when I tried to stuff and then store the stuffed stix in the fridge overnight for smoking the next day the casings become very loose and want to peel away from the meat because of the moisture loss and it will not allow the protein to bond.  I am thinking that by giving the bath after the smoke you are breaking the bond and getting the chewy casing.  Before you give up on the casing try another batch and this time when you get the IT you want pull them from the smoker and just bloom them for a few hours.  I like to put them in the fridge uncovered overnight and then vac seal in the morning.  I have never experienced the chewy texture doing it that way.

Then again you may have gotten a bad batch of casings. 

[Tenpoint5]

I have done the cold water bath thing lots of times dont think its that. I'm thinking he stuffed them then left them in the fridge overnight. Thus they absorbed the moisture out of the meat and made them rubbery.  Just guessing

[RHOUSER]

Ten Point and Sailor, thanks.  I certainly pulled the "A-Team" on my problem.  I will try another batch this weekend.  Sailor has got the symptom down but I didn't express it.  When I bite the snack stick it feels like the meat is separate from the casing.  The meat is basically separate in my mouth and I am chewing a piece of casing and a piece of meat.  Whether I got the casings too wet in the precook or the water bath caused it, I don't know.
Could my mix have been too wet?  I did a 2 hour drying at 130, should I have cut that back to 1 hour?

Since you two have made it work, It has to be something in my process.  I now believe that I had the collagen separate from the meat and lost the protein bond.  I will concentrate on getting the sausage to the smoking heat with a "meat and casing bond" in place.

Thanks and "I'll be back".
rch

[NePaSmoKer]

Maybe this will help you.

Collagen Casings

Problem: Product falling in smokehouse
Possible Cause:High humidity in first cycle

Solutions:
Collagen must be dried in the first cycle to toughen the casings before finish cooking.

Problem: Finished product wrinkling
Possible Cause:
1.)Product too dry
2.)Improper cooling
3.)Under stuffing

Solutions:
1.)Maintain humidity level of at least 50% in cook cycle.
2.)Upon reaching required internal temperature, product should be showered then removed to room temperature for 30 to 40 minutes and then cooled.
3.)Product should be stuffed to recommended diameter.

Problem: Casing dry and breaking
Possible Cause: Dehydrated casing

Solutions:
Collagen needs to be stored in a cool place. If casings get dry, open caddy and store in the coolers overnight. This will add moisture back into the casings.

Problem: Product not coloring
Possible Cause: Over drying of product before smoke is started.

Solution:
Casings should only be dried until tacky to the touch before smoke is started.

Problem: Product streaking
Possible Cause: Under drying of product before smoke is started

Solution:
Product not being dried properly will cause drops of water to run down product causing streaking.

Problem: Casing Tough
Possible Cause: Too little humidity in last cycle

Solution:
After casing is dried in the first cycle, product should next be smoked to desired color. High humidity of at least 50% should be used in the cooking cycle.

Problem: Casing small in size
Possible Cause: Dehydrated casing

Solution:
1.)Check flat width against allowable flat width in the size being used.
2.)Casing may have dried, open caddy and store in cooler at least 24 hours.

[Tenpoint5]

Don't soak the collagen casing prior to stuffing. Also leave your sticks in the smoker for a longer time, prior to using a waterbath. Your not getting a high enough IT. Therefore the protiens in the casings and the meat are not bonding. Then when you waterbath the meat is shrinking faster than the casing. Resulting inloose casings that taste like rubber when you chew them. Been there! You can peel the casing off the ones you already have and they should have a better chew/mouth feel

[NePaSmoKer]

Don't soak the collagen casing prior to stuffing. Also leave your sticks in the smoker for a longer time, prior to using a waterbath. Your not getting a high enough IT. Therefore the protiens in the casings and the meat are not bonding. Then when you waterbath the meat is shrinking faster than the casing. Resulting inloose casings that taste like rubber when you chew them. Been there! You can peel the casing off the ones you already have and they should have a better chew/mouth feel

[RHOUSER]

All I can say is thanks and WOW.  I now have an idea of most of the things I did to contribute to my Rubber Collagen effect. 

NePaSmoker and 10 Point 5 and Sailor, what temperature do you all pull your "sticks" at? 

I used a home ground 70% lean beef and had added 30% beef fat by weight to the grind.  With 30% fat I was worried that I was going to have a fat out if I went too warm on the IT.

NePaSmoker, 10 Point 5, and Sailor, what percent fat are you running in your beef sticks and is it beef or pork fat?

I didn't pre-soak the collagen cases but I did add a healthy 3 oz (maybe 4 oz) of water to the meat mix to get it to go through my small tube.  I let the sausage "dry" for 2 hours at 130 in the OBS before bumping to 140 and starting the smoke.

My total time from start dry to pull sticks at the 150 degrees was 7 hours.  The 3/8 inch sticks were almost like I had dried them in the dehydrator.  Should I shorten the run time to get them to the pull temp (whatever the new target is)?  They could be eased up on a steeper ramp with their small diameter I think, but, since I have you all on here I will ask.  Too long on the cook?

I will try again on Saturday weather permitting.

thanks in advance for your help
rch

[Sailor]

All I can say is thanks and WOW.  I now have an idea of most of the things I did to contribute to my Rubber Collagen effect. 

NePaSmoker and 10 Point 5 and Sailor, what temperature do you all pull your "sticks" at? 

I used a home ground 70% lean beef and had added 30% beef fat by weight to the grind.  With 30% fat I was worried that I was going to have a fat out if I went too warm on the IT.

NePaSmoker, 10 Point 5, and Sailor, what percent fat are you running in your beef sticks and is it beef or pork fat?

I didn't pre-soak the collagen cases but I did add a healthy 3 oz (maybe 4 oz) of water to the meat mix to get it to go through my small tube.  I let the sausage "dry" for 2 hours at 130 in the OBS before bumping to 140 and starting the smoke.

My total time from start dry to pull sticks at the 150 degrees was 7 hours.  The 3/8 inch sticks were almost like I had dried them in the dehydrator.  Should I shorten the run time to get them to the pull temp (whatever the new target is)?  They could be eased up on a steeper ramp with their small diameter I think, but, since I have you all on here I will ask.  Too long on the cook?

I will try again on Saturday weather permitting.

thanks in advance for your help
rch

RHOUSER, I think the percentage of meat to fat ratio is a personal preference.  Personally I like the 80/20 ground beef and buy the 5lb tube at Wally World.  I have used Costco 88/12 but I don't like the finished texture as much as the 80/20.  Some guys use a higher fat content and some use less fat content.  The beauty of making your own sticks is to experiment to find the blend that you and your family likes.  No right or wrong answer here  ;D

As far as IT temp to pull.....well I learned from Rick (NEPAS) and he pulls between 149 and 152 and that is where I pull mine.  Normally mine are out of the smoker at 150-151 and then bloomed for 2 hrs without any cold water bath.  After blooming they go in the fridge overnight and then cut and vac sealed.  No right or wrong on this method either.  Experiment to find what fits you.

I only use ground beef in my sticks.  Now with summer sausage I use a mix of beef and pork.  My Kielbasa is a 50/50 mix of beef and pork.  Again it is experiment to find the blend that you like.  Take notes of what you did and how you did it so you can duplicate it over and over when you hit it out of the park.

Again on the amount of water to use for sticks is personal preference.  I do not use a store bought mix and just use the spices in my spice cabinet.  I use 1/2 cup of water to 5 pounds of meat.  I have used as much as a cup per 5 pounds and as little as 1/4 cup.  I find that 1/2 cup gives me the mix that I am looking for when stuffing.  Not too much and not too little.  I do use 1oz of Non Fat Dry Milk per 5 pounds in my sticks. 

Now for the drying and smoking time.  No right or wrong way to do it.  What works for me may not work for you.  I hang the sticks and dry at 130 for 1 hr and then bump the temp to 140 for 2 hrs and then roll the smoke.  The temp is then bumped to 150 for 2 hrs.  I normally put 2 to 3 hrs of smoke so I am still smoking at 150.  Increase the temp 10 degrees every 2 hrs until it reaches 170 and then hold until IT is reached.  I would not recommend going above 175 for fear of fat out.  Some guys dry at 120 and then jump to 150-160.  No right or wrong answer.  The way I do it is the way Rick taught me and it has worked for hundreds and hundreds of pounds and I don't think I am going to change my setting in the PID any time soon  ;D

You asked about ramping the temp depending on the size.  My PID is set at 130 for 1 hr and 10 degree bump every 2 hrs maxing at 170 with IT shut off at 152 and I use that setting for 18mm casings to large Bologna size casings.

[cobra6223]

I noticed one  other thing he mentioned putting into zip lock bags. If the sticks aren't cold I Have found moisture and lots of it in the bags the next day, just a thought. Also when I first started doing this nobody liked the collagen  casing as they felt they were to tough, then I started using a hot water bath to finish them and that seemed to please most people as they thought the sticks weren't as tough however like Sailor stated what worked for me may not be right for you as I know some of the guys on here never use the hot water and always finish in the smoker. Just a couple of thoughts, good luck in the future.