Venison Sweet and Spicy snack sticks

Started by Chewbacca, September 30, 2013, 06:15:41 PM

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Chewbacca

My dad is planning on making the following recipe. Please reply what you think may be any foreseeable problems with the recipe (i.e. spice quantities, smoke time, etc.). I know this is going to come out a little dry since he is not going to add any fat but it's what he wants to try although we always add some pork fat.

5lbs. Venison
1 tsp Instacure #1
3 Tbsp Mustard powder
1 tsp cayenne pepper
1 tsp black pepper
1 tsp white pepper
1 tsp ground celery seed
1/2 Tbsp Mace
1 tsp garlic powder
1/2 Tbsp onion powder
1 oz. salt
1 tsp ground ginger
1/4 c pure maple syrup
3 oz fermento
water, as needed
16 mm collagen casings

Cube the venison and then sprinkle with spices, cure and fermento. Grind through small disc on grinder (3/16", i think). Add syrup and mix well. Stuff into 16mm casings. Cut into approximately 12" sticks and place on Bradley smoker racks. Put into 95 degree oven for about 12 hours to activate the fermento. Remove and place directly into 160 degree pre-heated bradley smoker. Smoke for about 2 hours using hickory pucks or until outside looks beautiful and IT is at least 130. Remove from smoker and put directly into 160 water bath until IT reaches 152.

What do you all think?


ragweed

Quote from: Chewbacca on September 30, 2013, 06:15:41 PM
My dad is planning on making the following recipe. Please reply what you think may be any foreseeable problems with the recipe (i.e. spice quantities, smoke time, etc.). I know this is going to come out a little dry since he is not going to add any fat but it's what he wants to try although we always add some pork fat.

5lbs. Venison
1 tsp Instacure #1
3 Tbsp Mustard powder
1 tsp cayenne pepper
1 tsp black pepper
1 tsp white pepper
1 tsp ground celery seed
1/2 Tbsp Mace
1 tsp garlic powder
1/2 Tbsp onion powder
1 oz. salt
1 tsp ground ginger
1/4 c pure maple syrup
3 oz fermento
water, as needed
16 mm collagen casings

Cube the venison and then sprinkle with spices, cure and fermento. Grind through small disc on grinder (3/16", i think). Add syrup and mix well. Stuff into 16mm casings. Cut into approximately 12" sticks and place on Bradley smoker racks. Put into 95 degree oven for about 12 hours to activate the fermento. Remove and place directly into 160 degree pre-heated bradley smoker. Smoke for about 2 hours using hickory pucks or until outside looks beautiful and IT is at least 130. Remove from smoker and put directly into 160 water bath until IT reaches 152.

What do you all think?

I don't have any experience with fermento, so I can't help you there.  But the recipe looks good and I intend to try it.  I've made jerky with honey added so I think the syrup will work fine.  As to no fat, I agree.  I use 93/7 GB or deer.  85/15 if I have to buy it.  I don't finish sticks in a water bath, but cook entirely in the Bradley.  I start at 130 F for 1 hr, no smoke.  Then bump to 140 F and start smoke.  After an hour bump to 150 F with smoke.  Another hour bump to 160 F for another hour with smoke.  Then 170 F no smoke until an IT of 152 F is reached.  Let cool at rm temp then frig overnight in a paper bag to adsorb any grease.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Thanks for posting the recipe and let us know (and see) how it turns out.

NePaSmoKer

Recipe looks good.
You may want to mix the fermento with some water. If you add it dry to the meat it could get sticky and lumpy.

Chewbacca

#3
Ok, so I lied a little bit on the first post. By the time I had written the first post I had already made these sticks. It was an EPIC fail >:( I was hoping to see if anybody could pick up on any details from my first post as to what could possibly go wrong. First of all, the sticks were dry and chewy. That is easy...add fat. Second, the 8 hrs that they were aging in the oven at about 90-95 degrees the bottoms side of the sticks turned very dark while the top side were white?? Obviously this is because the heat element is on the bottom. Unfortunately, I don't have any other way to hold the sticks at 90 like the instructions for fermento recommend. The color never really improved while in the smoker either. Thirdly, these things had zero flavor! How is that possible? It appeared that there was plenty of spice for the quantity of meat. The red pepper didn't leave any burn and the maple syrup left no flavor. I even used pure maple syrup. It seemed like possibly the fermento may have overwhelmed the spices because there was way more fermento than spices. Anybody who has ever used fermento knows that stuff is much lighter than flour. It takes a lot of fermento to equal 3 oz! I wanted to use fermento because I was hoping to get that sour tang found in true slim jims. Obviously I need to try ECA or go to a starter culture and try curing them in a curing chamber. I was hoping fermento would give me the results I was looking for but right now I'm completely disappointed in the results. I threw the entire batch out. Oh, and another thing, after rereading the recipe I realized the cure that was called for was #2 and I used #1 by mistake (basically because I didn't read the recipe close enough). Bad mistake since this could wind up putting a person in the hospital or worse. Would either cure work in this situation? Or was the time that the meat sat in the oven too long to use cure #1? Was the type of cure the whole problem to begin with? HELP!!!!!!

Wait, there was yet another problem I forgot to mention...the only flavor these sticks did have were smoke flavor. And way too much of it! It seems like all the sausages I make in the bradley are always too smokey. I'm trying to come up with sticks that are nearly as good as my local processing shop so that I don't have to spend a fortune having him make sticks for me. However, his sticks are always full of flavor, have the right consistency to the meat and have very little (if any) smoke flavor. Is it possible that they do not actually smoke them but just add a little liquid smoke and finish them in the smoker w/o any smoke? I'm at a loss...

cobra6223

I think you should get to the doctor and get some high blood pressure meds, you could need them !! ONLY JOKING. I may not have read the first post through but the first thing I noticed wrong is it says your a newbie right? So we all start some where and I think the pros call it experimentation! Your local butcher has made sticks for how long? Some of these guys have been doing this a long time and I believe they still have questions and things that don't go just right. 2 hours of hickory shouldn't leave a bad smoky taste, I smoke most things with 3 hours of hickory and it tastes fine. I like ragweed have never used fermento only ECA. Texture is a tough one as not everyone likes the same texture or mouth feel, does your butcher emulsify the meat? use a finer or coarser grind than you did? Since I joined the site I have made a pound or two of sausage and not all has gone right. I also rely on the pros and friends I have made on here and I have called someone before in a total PANIC and got great advice. Keep swinging and keep asking questions you will get to where your butcher sticks taste horrible and you want to sell him a few pounds of yours to show him hoe they should be made!! GOOD LUCK!!

devo

OK as I read your post I was wondering why you had the smoker set at 90-95?? This is just way to low to get to the internal temp of 152F that you need to make it safe to eat. Than you said the recipe called for cure #2 and you used cure #1. sounds like the instructions are for dry curing and not hot smoking. The big lesson I hope you learnt is read what the recipe calls for and learn a little about cures and what they do. Good thing they tasted bad or else someone could have been real sick from them.
Keep trying and asking questions. Everyone makes mistakes and if they say they don't than they are full of you know what.

Saber 4

I'm not a sausage expert, but I did notice one thing if you are getting a bad smoky taste after 2 hours I would have to ask if your vent was open or closed, you may be getting a creosote type smoky flavor if your vent wasn't open enough to let the moisture out, this combined with the problems you and other's have identified may be the cause of some of your issue.

Chewbacca

Quote from: devo on October 03, 2013, 04:39:26 PM
OK as I read your post I was wondering why you had the smoker set at 90-95?? This is just way to low to get to the internal temp of 152F that you need to make it safe to eat. Than you said the recipe called for cure #2 and you used cure #1. sounds like the instructions are for dry curing and not hot smoking. The big lesson I hope you learnt is read what the recipe calls for and learn a little about cures and what they do. Good thing they tasted bad or else someone could have been real sick from them.
Keep trying and asking questions. Everyone makes mistakes and if they say they don't than they are full of you know what.

First of all, the purpose for leaving in the oven at 90 was to give the fermento time to develop it's tang (as per instructions for fermento). The instructions are for semi-dry curing, i've seen both types of cures used in different recipes for pretty much the same recipe. And for what it's worth, my brother has been making fermented sausages (my next venture) for years so I know exactly what each cure does. Although my identity on here lists me as a "newbie" I've actually been making summer sausage and fresh sausages for 15 years with great success. However, I've never been content with the snack sticks I've made. I really want to get something that has a similar tang as a Slim Jim. I thought fermento would be the answer but now I'm thinking otherwise.

Chewbacca

Quote from: Saber 4 on October 03, 2013, 11:14:00 PM
I'm not a sausage expert, but I did notice one thing if you are getting a bad smoky taste after 2 hours I would have to ask if your vent was open or closed, you may be getting a creosote type smoky flavor if your vent wasn't open enough to let the moisture out, this combined with the problems you and other's have identified may be the cause of some of your issue.

Thanks Saber! Next batch will be smoked with the vent wide open and we will see what happens.

Sailor

Sorry to hear about your failed sticks.  I have thrown many of my experiments out  ;D  1st of all there is a big difference in making sausage by smoking vs dry curing.  I will not attempt to give any pointers to dry curing as I have never done it.  I make snack sticks every weekend and I think I have it down to a science.  If you are wanting to try a homemade recipe vs a store bought one I might suggest that you try a batch of Penrock's sticks http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?648-Greg-s-Spicy-Beef-Sticks

They are very good and the recipe is a great starting point to develop your own recipe from.  If you are wanting that tang you need to get some ECA instead of fermento.   You can even use buttermilk instead of water as the buttermilk will give you some tang.  Stay the heck away from the oven to do sticks.  You have a bradley so use it to do the sticks.  When I first started doing sausage I received my education from Rick (NEPAS) on how to smoke them and his method has never failed me.

When you have stuffed your snack sticks hang them in the smoker at 130 degrees for 1 hr to dry the casings.  The casings will not take smoke when wet.

After they have dried then bump the temp up to 140 degrees for 2 hrs and apply the smoke.  2 hrs of Hickory is what I use and never had an over bearing smoke taste.  After the 2 hrs of 140 them bump the temp to 150 for 2 hrs.  Then to 160 for 2 hrs then to 170 until you get an internal temp of 152.  You should be able to get to IT of 152 in 6 to 8 hrs.

After you reach the IT of 152 bring them inside and hang or lay on the kitchen cabinet for a few hours to bloom.  Then put them in the fridge overnight.  Vac seal them the next day.

You need to have about 15 to 20% fat content or you will have a dry product.  Also do not grind the ECA as you will break them and ruin the meat.  ECA starts to melt at 140 degrees.

If you are planning to make smoked sausage then you need to invest in a PID to control the cabinet temps.  Cabinet temps are critical when smoking sausage.  You can still do smoked sausage in a Bradley with out the PID but you need to really watch it.

Good luck with your next batch of sticks.

Jim


Enough ain't enough and too much is just about right.

Chewbacca

Quote from: Sailor on October 04, 2013, 05:52:05 AM
Sorry to hear about your failed sticks.  I have thrown many of my experiments out  ;D  1st of all there is a big difference in making sausage by smoking vs dry curing.  I will not attempt to give any pointers to dry curing as I have never done it.  I make snack sticks every weekend and I think I have it down to a science.  If you are wanting to try a homemade recipe vs a store bought one I might suggest that you try a batch of Penrock's sticks http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?648-Greg-s-Spicy-Beef-Sticks

They are very good and the recipe is a great starting point to develop your own recipe from.  If you are wanting that tang you need to get some ECA instead of fermento.   You can even use buttermilk instead of water as the buttermilk will give you some tang.  Stay the heck away from the oven to do sticks.  You have a bradley so use it to do the sticks.  When I first started doing sausage I received my education from Rick (NEPAS) on how to smoke them and his method has never failed me.

When you have stuffed your snack sticks hang them in the smoker at 130 degrees for 1 hr to dry the casings.  The casings will not take smoke when wet.

After they have dried then bump the temp up to 140 degrees for 2 hrs and apply the smoke.  2 hrs of Hickory is what I use and never had an over bearing smoke taste.  After the 2 hrs of 140 them bump the temp to 150 for 2 hrs.  Then to 160 for 2 hrs then to 170 until you get an internal temp of 152.  You should be able to get to IT of 152 in 6 to 8 hrs.

After you reach the IT of 152 bring them inside and hang or lay on the kitchen cabinet for a few hours to bloom.  Then put them in the fridge overnight.  Vac seal them the next day.

You need to have about 15 to 20% fat content or you will have a dry product.  Also do not grind the ECA as you will break them and ruin the meat.  ECA starts to melt at 140 degrees.

If you are planning to make smoked sausage then you need to invest in a PID to control the cabinet temps.  Cabinet temps are critical when smoking sausage.  You can still do smoked sausage in a Bradley with out the PID but you need to really watch it.

Good luck with your next batch of sticks.

Jim

Thanks for the info Jim. This is pretty much exactly how I've been doing it until I bought the fermento. The only other thing I have done differently is I have been water bathing my sticks and summer sausage. Do you not recommend water bathing the sticks? I have always had the impression that once the sticks had the beautiful color it was ok to water bath them. I'm going to give the fermento one more try this weekend but I'm just going to make the sticks in my usual fashion and see how they turn out. If they are another failure then I am going to throw the fermento in trash and buy some ECA. I will keep you all informed but until then please keep the ideas and info coming.

Sailor

No need to ice bath the sticks.  After they are done just let them cool down by blooming.  You are only using 18 to 21 mm casings so you don't have the meat mass that is going to continue to cook.  I do ice bath my summer sausage and other sausage when using 32mm or larger casings.  You need to bring the temp down to 100 degrees then bloom when using larger casings.

With the snack sticks you need to really keep an eye on them because you can fat them out real fast if you get the cabinet temp over 170-175.

I have used fermento in a recipe that was for making sticks and I was not happy with the results.  I am thinking that to get the fermento to work you need to be doing a dry cure recipe and have perfect PH and humidity and temp but so far I have not done any dry curing.  I think you will be happy with your results if you use ECA.


Enough ain't enough and too much is just about right.

Chewbacca

Quote from: Sailor on October 04, 2013, 05:52:05 AM

If you are planning to make smoked sausage then you need to invest in a PID to control the cabinet temps.  Cabinet temps are critical when smoking sausage.  You can still do smoked sausage in a Bradley with out the PID but you need to really watch it.

Jim

I have a Bradley digital smoker, so do I still need a PID?

Sailor

Chewbacca, To be honest with you I really don't know as I have the OBS.  When I bought the OBS I knew that I would mostly be doing sausage and I wanted a tight control on the cabinet temp.  I think Chris has a digital and does sausage in it.  I just don't know how tight the digital will keep the cabinet temp.  Perhaps someone can chime in on this to help you with your question.


Enough ain't enough and too much is just about right.

Saber 4

Quote from: Sailor on October 04, 2013, 12:59:37 PM
Chewbacca, To be honest with you I really don't know as I have the OBS.  When I bought the OBS I knew that I would mostly be doing sausage and I wanted a tight control on the cabinet temp.  I think Chris has a digital and does sausage in it.  I just don't know how tight the digital will keep the cabinet temp.  Perhaps someone can chime in on this to help you with your question.

I've got the digital and would like to know also since I'm getting ready to do some brats