Its That Time of Year Again.......

Wildcat · December 12, 2006, 01:55:37 PM

Just my 2 cents worth to ponder - The Bible references wine and new wine. It also cautions about over indulgence.

In my opnion, as in all things, moderation is the key.

Consiglieri · December 12, 2006, 02:36:11 PM

Can't dispute that moderation is important. My curiousity is getting the better of me: isn't new wine fermented, but unaged, wine?

Wildcat · December 12, 2006, 04:27:23 PM

Good question. I make wine myself. From a historic view point, I have always assumed that they, back then, made juice from fruit and called it new wine (as in before it starts to ferment). Fermentation at that time was the only way to preserve the fruit juice. I also suspect that the word "juice" was not in their vocabulary hence the term new wine. I may be way off base but that is my opinion. Also, the aging of wine has only two purposes. First to clarify and second to impart a wood flavor.

Consiglieri · December 12, 2006, 04:44:54 PM

Thought that aging also mellowed out some of the harsher flavor characteristics of young wine or helped develop some other complexities in flavor. For instance, bottled cabarnet is no longer in wood and typically has been afforded enough time to clarify, but often is laid down for several years before reaching its peak. Don't know enough about the ancient languages to comment on whether biblical references to new wine were speaking about juice. With respect to the wedding at Cana, however, wine is the chosen word.

I kind of like how this thread has morphed from the gutter, to the brewery, to the county fair, back to the gutter, to the pulpit, and now to the wine cellar.

Wildcat · December 12, 2006, 05:04:13 PM

I personally have not noticed any changes to wine that has aged in the bottle for a few years. Many claim it is so, but my taste buds are not that acute. I am begining to get thirsty. Here is a toast to the BS and this forum.

winemakers · December 13, 2006, 07:02:30 AM

I second the toast (and the thirsty part). As I understand it, the chemistry of change in wine in bottles is outrageously complex and not understood by 'experts'. Given the $'s associated with old=expensive wines, if anyone truely understood what happens, it would be shouted from the mountain tops or cheap wine would be sold as knock offs, which ever comes first.

I notice dramatic changes in wines we make with age in a bottle, and if I may add, many of which are not for the positive. Fruity white wines often benefit from being drank (drunk?) young, as the fruity characteristics often fade rapidly. My bride and I have several variaties of favorite "Wednesday" wines (not what you would bring to the big Friday night bash). That is to say, variaties we make that are palatable young. A good thing as we are not the most patient people in this universe. As a rule of thumb (as dangerous a phrase as common knowledge!), tannic reds will tolerate aging, with potential benefits from alterations in their structure. Some of the noble whites may also gain/change character with limited amounts of age.

I guess wines are like people. Mostly, young ones are cute, bright, potentially wonderful and worthy of lifelong adoration. However, with age, some get better, while others do not!

Happy Holidays all

smoke on

Mark

manxman · December 13, 2006, 08:08:24 AM

QuoteI guess wines are like people. Mostly, young ones are cute, bright, potentially wonderful and worthy of lifelong adoration. However, with age, some get better, while others do not!

:D :D :D :D

Malc · December 13, 2006, 09:05:04 AM

I will have to try and track down the article from Discover. There are a couple of microbreweries and winemakers who work with anthropologists to re-create some of these old recipes for fermented beverages. Apparently some of them are quite good, while others are almost unpalatable. The author of the article was attempting a home brewed version of what was thought to be the absolute oldest recipe ever unearthed. The brewer that took on the challenge added modern ingredients that would not have been available to the Chinese brewers. I believe it involved Hawthorn berries or something similar. Anyway, the sugars in the berries are resistant to fermentation by most modern strains of yeast, so the fermentation had to be kick started by first chewing the fruit and spitting it out. I don't think the end result was particularly good, but very interesting nonetheless.
BTW, I cannot see many ancient civilizations having objections to drinking alcohol. There was no moral stigma associated with drinking. It was seen as a method of preservation as stated above.

Malc

iceman · December 13, 2006, 09:34:09 AM

On the spot winemakers. Well said. ;)

Consiglieri · December 13, 2006, 09:48:15 AM

I have experimented with home-made sodas too. The recipe book I used noted that the method of carbonating the drink was the same as for fermented beverages (yeast conversion of sugars into alcohol w/ CO2 as a byproduct). Old fashioned rootbeer, ginger ale, cream soda all had a bit of alcohol, but the beverage was prepared in smaller batches, with slight amounts of yeast, and consumed before the yeast could propogate to full fermentation capacity (or put in cold places to suspend fermentation).

With the quantities of sugar or honey added to the benign beverages, I'm sure that quite a few households had popping bottles after a while.

Cheers to the site and happy holidays.

Wildcat · December 13, 2006, 02:00:08 PM

I understand about popping bottles also. Champaign (sp?) can be made of any wine in two different ways. First is by adding a special yeast after the wine has cleared and corking, the other is by adding a very small amount of dry ice and corking. The latter leaves absolutely no sediment, but it is best done outside with a good bottle.

Habanero Smoker · December 13, 2006, 02:27:48 PM

Quote from: Consiglieri on December 13, 2006, 09:48:15 AM
I have experimented with home-made sodas too. The recipe book I used noted that the method of carbonating the drink was the same as for fermented beverages (yeast conversion of sugars into alcohol w/ CO2 as a byproduct). Old fashioned rootbeer, ginger ale, cream soda all had a bit of alcohol, but the beverage was prepared in smaller batches, with slight amounts of yeast, and consumed before the yeast could propogate to full fermentation capacity (or put in cold places to suspend fermentation).

With the quantities of sugar or honey added to the benign beverages, I'm sure that quite a few households had popping bottles after a while.

Cheers to the site and happy holidays.

We use to make root beer and sarsaparilla when I was a child. I can't remember the complete process. We did use Walkins syrups, sugar, yeast to create the CO2, but once bottled the fermentation ended. We may have consumed the soda before it turned "hard", but if I recall correctly, some of the self life was over a month; unrefrigerated.

manxman · December 13, 2006, 02:39:27 PM

Quoteginger ale,

Ah, ginger ale or ginger beer as I remember it. My dad used to make it when I was a boy..... wonderful! ;) And yes, we had our fair share of popping bottles if my memory serves me correctly. :-[

The stuff you can buy nowadays is so insipid by comparison!!

Consiglieri · December 13, 2006, 03:24:25 PM

HS: I'm wondering if restricted amount of yeast, combined with cellar temperatures didn't inhibit fermentation. I'm pretty sure my recipe called for baker's yeast, rather than brewer's yeast, which might explain the shelf life. Otherwise, as Manxman can attest, the little yeasty plant or animals just keep on eating the sugar and producing CO2 along the way until the bottles break. Little risk of the rootbeer turning hard since the bottle will break before fermentation is complete

With beer, an ale yeast can convert 5 gallons of wort to beer in 5 to 10 days at 70ish F. Drop the temperature down to 50F and fermentation slows dramitically. A lager yeast, however, will still ferment at the cooler temperatures.

Interesting.

winemakers · December 13, 2006, 03:27:20 PM

Its good to hear the voice of a fellow addict!
;D

Quote from: Consiglieri on December 13, 2006, 03:24:25 PM
HS: I'm wondering if restricted amount of yeast, combined with cellar temperatures didn't inhibit fermentation. I'm pretty sure my recipe called for baker's yeast, rather than brewer's yeast, which might explain the shelf life. Otherwise, as Manxman can attest, the little yeasty plant or animals just keep on eating the sugar and producing CO2 along the way until the bottles break. Little risk of the rootbeer turning hard since the bottle will break before fermentation is complete

With beer, an ale yeast can convert 5 gallons of wort to beer in 5 to 10 days at 70ish F. Drop the temperature down to 50F and fermentation slows dramitically. A lager yeast, however, will still ferment at the cooler temperatures.

Interesting.