Salami/Summer Sausage Questions

[Bad Flynch]

>The biggest problem with regards to Fermento is the fact I live in Canada. There are a lot of products that can't/won't be shipped here and I haven't found a supplier for it here.<

I don't want to sound cavalier, but The Sausagemaker is in Buffalo, NY, which is not too far from some parts of Canada. In addition, they ship around the world. If you called them, they could tell you about the shipping and maybe even recommend a Canadian supplier.

Powdered skim milk can work, too, as I have seen it in many recipes. I don't really know the percentages, but somewhere that informaiton should be available.

[Mr Walleye]

Not a problem Bad Flynch

I have tried to order a number of things out of the USA that are restricted. I can't say that I have tried to order Fermento but I will say it would be cost prohibitive to have it shipped here. You should see some of the shipping rates/Brokers Fees I have to pay for items out of the US.

There's a fairly large sausage supply store about 40 minutes away and that is where I asked about Fermento. They told me Fermento is a product brand name that isn't available. They recomended the Salami Starter which I mentioned in my first post. It's ingredients are dextrose, corn syrup solids and glucono delta lactone. They told me to use this in place of the dextrose, corn syrup solids and fermento of whatever recipe I am using. I would hope they know what they are talking about and this is really what I would like to confirm. If this Saslami Starter will work, I would prefer to use because I can get it locally.

Mike

[Bad Flynch]

Well, bummer about the shipping and brokerage fees. I have not been aware of the problem coming this way.

>I would prefer to use because I can get it locally<

Well, generally that is a good idea. People have traditionally used what was available locally and in extreme cases, that is what gave some products their "taste of the place."

In any event, please report back about your experience, once done.

[coyote]

Hey Mike , I am no help at all for what your are needing to know....But you sure sparked my interest ,
and that's for sure ! I've made a lot of sausage , really good sausage , but when you get right down to
it I'm pretty much still a hack at best. I do believe a trip to amish country would be a worthwhile adventure. My wife has been wanting to go and it's only about a 2 hour drive.(Sugar Creek Ohio)
I've known a couple families up there for a lot of years. I know I could pick up a lot of good tricks.
Keep us posted on you progress.
                                                                          Coyote

[Habanero Smoker]

>The biggest problem with regards to Fermento is the fact I live in Canada. There are a lot of products that can't/won't be shipped here and I haven't found a supplier for it here.<

I don't want to sound cavalier, but The Sausagemaker is in Buffalo, NY, which is not too far from some parts of Canada. In addition, they ship around the world. If you called them, they could tell you about the shipping and maybe even recommend a Canadian supplier.

Powdered skim milk can work, too, as I have seen it in many recipes. I don't really know the percentages, but somewhere that informaiton should be available.

I do a fair amount of baking, and came across this special dry milk formula. Do you think this would work better than regular powder milk for making salami.
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=1188

[Bad Flynch]

Habs,

Since I have no experience with this product, the best that I can do is offer an educated guess. The bacterium responsible for lactic acid is primarily Lactobacillus acidophilus and sometimes some others akin to it like L. bulgaricus and a couple others.

The product in question is optimized to promote the growth of Saccharomyces cerevisciae (a yeast) and might not be of any real benefit, compared to regular powdered milk. I like KA flour and like these people a lot, but this product seems to be designed for a different purpose.

Hope this helps.

[Mr Walleye]

Bad Flynch

I think I'm starting to understand this... Maybe!  ::)

First off, the Salami Starter that is available here has an ingredients list as follows:
Dextrose, corn syrup solids and glucono delta lactone.

The Fermento ingredients are:
Corn syrup solids, glucono delta lactone and sodium erythorbate.

So... it would stand to reason why they (JB Sauage) say to replace the dextrose, corn syrup solids and Fermento with their product (Salami Starter) in whatever recipe I'm following.

Next, from the reading I've been doing either of these products still require the natural bacteria to produce the "tangy" flavor. Of course you could add a starter culture (actual freeze dried good bacteria) to ensure a better end product but not a must because it is there in the meat naturally.

So, If I understand this correctly the bacteria consumes the dextros and corn syrup solids and produces lactic acid. I am asuming the reason both Fermento and Salami Starter contain glucono delta lactone is to... sort of give it a head start.

Also, it would appear this fementation will only take place up to a certain temperature and is probably the reason the guy in the link in my first post holds his in the smoker over night at 90 degrees before he smokes it and takes it to 152 degrees internal temperature.

Is this starting to make any sense?  ???

Mike

[Bad Flynch]

>So... it would stand to reason why they (JB Sauage) say to replace the dextrose, corn syrup solids and Fermento with their product (Salami Starter) in whatever recipe I'm following.<

Well, it looks like it is pretty much a directly competing product, so just use according to the directions provided by JB. The directions may not be significantly different, but I have no way of telling that.

>Next, from the reading I've been doing either of these products still require the natural bacteria to produce the "tangy" flavor. Of course you could add a starter culture (actual freeze dried good bacteria) to ensure a better end product but not a must because it is there in the meat naturally.<

Yes, you need an adequate natural bacterial population, but then given a lot of food, they will grow and sometimes prodigiously. Remember a couple of emails back when I said that some commercial outfits might use both? Well, I would be careful because it may be difficult to control the results at home if you use both. Too sour probably equals bad sausage.

>I am asuming the reason both Fermento and Salami Starter contain glucono delta lactone is to... sort of give it a head start.V

Probably. Just a guess, but since GDL is acidic, it can lower the pH early on to offer some protection from the bad bacteria gaining a foothold.

>Also, it would appear this fementation will only take place up to a certain temperature and is probably the reason the guy in the link in my first post holds his in the smoker over night at 90 degrees before he smokes it and takes it to 152 degrees internal temperature.<

Well, in chemistry and biology, temperature governs the rates at which reactions occur. For example, if you increase the temperature of a chemical reaction 10 deg. C., you double the rate of the reaction. In biology, the difference is similar; bacteria grow much faster as the temperature goes up.

However, with bacteria and yeasts, there are upper and lower limits to the effectiveness of this technique. It is similar to the warnings about keeping food between 40 and 140 degrees F and food poisoning growth. Below 40 degrees F and bacterial systems shut down and above 140 degrees F, bacterial enzymes begin to denature and the bacteria start to cook and die.

Their is usually an optimal temperature range for bacteria to grow. I suspect that 90 degrees is close enough to body temperature to be a good culturing temperature. L. acidophilus ordinarily is associated with living animals that produce milk.

>Is this starting to make any sense? <

Sure, and the longer you work at it and learn, the more sense it will make. Keep learning.

[Mr Walleye]

Thanks Bad Flynch, very informative!

I may get this figured out yet!  ::)

I just like to do my homework on things before I jump in, better safe.

Mike

[Mr Walleye]

I found the following recipes here: http://www.wwf5.com/stuffers.com/content/recipes/sausrecp.pdf

There is quite an extensive list of recipes there. It's a company in BC Canada called Stuffers ( www.stuffers.com ).

The interesting part (I thought anyway) is that they also use Fermento. They also hold the sausage at a low temp for 8 hours and you can adjust this by another 12 hours to add additional "tang".

Mike


Dried Sausage Sticks (Slim Jims)

Ingredients for 10 lbs.
2 Level tsp. Prague Powder No. 1
4 tbsp. paprika
6 tbsp. ground mustard
1 tsp. ground black pepper
1 tsp. ground white pepper
1 tsp. ground celery
1 tbsp. mace
1 tsp. granulated garlic
3 1/2 ozs. salt
1 1/2 ozs. powdered dextrose
6 ozs. Fermento
10 lbs. of beef or other lean meat

Dried sausage sticks are made using a fairly lean type of meat.You may use any kind of cow, bull or steer
meat.The ratio is about 80% lean and 20% fat. Beef chuck is excellent meat for this sausage.
Meat is chilled at 30-32ºF. so that it will not smear when being ground through a 1/8" grinder plate. It
is then mixed very well for about 2 minutes and stuffed into 22-24mm sheep casings. Desired length is 6"-
9". Meat is then placed in a smokehouse at 98-110ºF., with cold smoke applied for about 8 hours. If you
desire more tang you may hold this temperature for 12 more hours. Smokehouse temperatures are then
raised until internal temperature reaches 145ºF. Remove from smoker and place in dry room at 50-55ºF.

[Stickbowcrafter]

Mike, do you have Rytek Kutas sausage making bible Great Sausage Recipes And Meat Curing? The recipe above for the slim jims is from that book. There is a wealth of info in that book about Fermento, starter cultures, etc.

Sounds like you found a perfect alternative to the brand name Fermento. I might have read something too quickly but I thought I had seen a suggestion about using dry milk in place of Fermento. Dry milk, soy protein concentrate and other binders/moisture retainers certainly have their place in sausage making but none alone are a substitute for a Fermento type product.

Sounds like you have been doing your homework. It's always a learning process, no matter how much sausage we've made. Just don't let all the unknown keep you from jumping in. Most of the time, experience is the best teacher. Keep us posted.

-Brian

[Mr Walleye]

Hi Brian

I do have the Great Sausage Recipes And Meat Curing book. I can definitely see why everybody praises this book for sure. Tons of information! I couldn't agree more with you about the learning process as well. He11! That's what we are all here for!  :D  ;)

I'll keep ya posted for sure.

Mike