A Ran-Dumb Thought about 3-2-1 WRT Ribs

[OTB]

After my first attempt at ribs in my DBS, and some coming out fall off the bone tender, while others were still under cooked...I did some thinking about the 3-2-1 procedure.

For the purpose of this post, and to confuse things a bit more, I will refer to the 3-2-1 method as the following steps:
Step 1:  Ribs in smoker, with smoke applied for 3 hours
Step 2:  Wrap ribs in foil, add some liquid such as apple juice into foil pouch, and return to smoker (no smoke applied) for 2 hours
Step 3:  Remove ribs from foil pouches, apply sauce and back into smoker (no smoke applied) for another 1 hour

Here are some random thoughts:

Stating the Obvious
-The Bradley smoker is an oven that cooks at low temps outside that happens to have a mechanism for smoke generation

Thoughts about Step 1 & 3
-Step 1 is the "Smoking" step.  This gets the nice smoky flavor into the meat and forms the bark as well
-Step 3 is where you are caramelizing any sauce you have placed on the ribs, as well as forming the last bit of bark
   -This is where you would normally crank up the grill to high or turn on the broiler to finish your ribs

Now some thoughts about Step 2
-Step 2 is the period of time (lets say 2 hours) where you wrap the ribs in foil, add some liquid such as apple juice, and put them back into the oven (aka Bradley Smoker) for cooking
   -Assumption #1 - Unless you are entering in competition bbq where you need just the right bite.....you really cannot over cook ribs (at least not in this step)
       -OK..in step 1 or 3 you could burn them or dry them out...but not in step 2 (as long as you have liquid and a tightly sealed pouch)
       -This step is cooking the ribs in a moist, protected environment (aka braising  see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braising )
-Since Step 2 is really about breaking down the connective tissues in the meat to make it "fall off the bone tender" I am thinking you could change this time to as long as you want.  I almost don't think you could do this for TOO LONG.  If you had the ribs in here for 4 hours, they would be  even more "fall off the bone tender" than 2 hours, with no ill effects on the final product (as long as you can get them out of the foil without all the meat falling off the bone)

Final Thoughts
-My next batch of ribs I am going to try a 3-4(or 5)-1 and will report back on my results.

DISCLAIMER:  I am a newbie at using my new BDS, so please just take this post as me "thinking aloud"

[Smokey the Bear.]

I have done many foods in the OBS and have found that if you have additional meat in the smoker it will change the variables. Maybe there was too much meat for the ambient temps of outside that effected the final outcome. i have found that when i did 4 racks it changed the times quite abit, over when i did 2 or 3 racks. there is a real learning curve with the smoker but as long as you check the meat for doneness( the meat pulls back from the bone slightly ) before foiling it will work out great. Not only this but rotating the racks during cooking helps as well.
I am not the guru of smoking but i believe that if only change one variable at a time then you can see what effect this has on the final taste.

[Pachanga]

My thoughts.

Prolonged braising can and will dry meat out.  It is an undeniable scientific fact.  You can easily dry meat out submerged in boiling water or continuous steam.  I am not stating that foiling is a bad technique or that it cannot produce a nice, tender desirable product.  

My thoughts on this subject are at the following;

I Prefer to Smoke Totally Naked - A Brisket and Ribs Manifesto
http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=12455.0

but read Caneyscud's following thoughts first;

Caneyscud wrote this recently.  It sums up some good information and represents priceless thoughts from a jewel on this board.  He has been there, done that, and thought through the nuances.  I pay attention to his comments.  He lies awake at night arriving at his conclusions.

Here is the thread:

http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=14487.msg172768#msg172768

Here is a cut and paste of his unedited answer.

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Re: Will this Brisket be done in time for dinner tonight?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2010, 02:17:21 pm »
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Not there in Co (darn it) so just my Bubba Gump Guesstimating.

12.75 hours on a 6.5 flat is likely - very likely way toooooooooooooo long - especially the 5.25 hours wrapped up in foil at 250.  So the combination of the long cook time and it being a flat (lean) contributed to the dryness.  Just remember, you can boil a piece a meat too long and it can get dry also - sounds illogical, but it happens.

The lack of smokiness was probably due to the time in the foil and the apple juice.

First most of my briskets, if you can maintain 225 are done in 1 to 1.5 hours per pound.  Last Sept. did 9 in a trailer mounted smoking rotisserie (theory is that all rotate through all zones of the cooker therefore theoretically all are cooked at same temp).  All were 11 to 12 pounds.  But they started being done from 11 hours out to about 16 or maybe it was 18 hours.  I was having problems keeping temp steady as I fell asleep and did not set my alarm correctly - but still 1 hour to almost 1.5 hours per pound.

Why was your meat dry when, by seeming simple logic, it should be moist - what with the foil and the apple juice.  Most meats are roughly 75% water, 20% protein, and 5% fat, carbohydrates, and assorted proteins.  Something made up of mostly water, cooked in water should be moist - right!  However, it doesn't work out that way - the "moistness" we desire is due to fat and collagen.

Juiciness and tenderness are influenced by the cut of meat you choose and how long the meat is cooked. The more a muscle is used, the stronger, and therefore tougher, the cut of meat will be - but thankfully the more fat and collagen it contains.  And because of the greater amount of collagen and lubricating fat in these cuts (think butts, shoulders, briskets, chucks) the more flavorful they are – but to be edible you must tenderize them before they finish cooking.  And that is why "low-n-slow" is our mantra.  Let me explain what likely happened and where your meat likely dried out in your cook.

When you put the brisket in the foil and in the oven - that is the point you technically stopped "barbecuing" and started braising.  Both are low-n-slow methods of cooking but with a difference - one is a dry method and the other a wet method.  A common definition of braising is - a method for cooking less tender cuts of meat by browning, covering and cooking meat in a small amount of liquid at a low temperature for a long period of time.

Muscle (meat) is a wonderful piece of natural engineering. It is both strong and flexible at the same time. It consists of bundles of fibers held together with a natural glue, mostly collagen, and lubricated with pads of fat.  Heat basically screws up this engineering - it bursts the cell walls and disrupts the delicate chemistry. At about 130 deg F. the flexible strands of protein making up the muscle fibers shrink and tangle, squeezing out the lubricating (and tasty) fluids. As the temperature increases these tangles get tighter and firmer. Your meat gets smaller and tougher. The lubricating and flavorful juices separate from the tough dry meat. (BTW, these juices in the old days were called the "osmazome".  Brillat Savarin described the juices as "The soul of the meat.")

Braising uses wet heat, but another mechanism comes into play. The collagen that holds the muscle together dissolves slowly and the fat slowly melts.  This happens in both dry and wet cooking and is a marvelous thing.  With long, slow cooking, the collagen melts and turns to soft, succulent gelatin, providing the juiciness to tough cuts of meat.  This however is a comparatively slow process. If you cook it long enough for all of the collagen to turn to gelatin, and hot enough for the contraction of the meat to squeeze out the liquid, you have just the cooked meat fibers left. If they have been overcooked, you are left with irretrievably dry and stringy meat, even if it is swimming in boiling liquid.

One problem with the braising is that many cooks don't realize they are actually boiling the meat in steam.  And by sealing it up, you are likely contributing to overcooking.  In an oven at 250 or 300, the liquid will start to boil and the resulting steam heats the meat to a very high temperature compared to the same temperature of dry heat.

You may, at this point, be scratching your head.  We cook steaks over a 400+ degree fire and roast turkeys at 375 degrees.  So why is boiling at 212 degrees different?  First liquid and or steam is far more effective at transmitting heat than hot air. That is not necessarily a bad thing, just something you have to keep in mind.  Think about it.  Cook a chuck in a smoker at 225 and it takes hours to get tender.  But cut the chuck up into cubes and throw in a stew and it is tender in possibly minutes – certainly not hours – why, because the transfer of heat was faster.  But cook it too long and that same meat is dry.  Ever wonder why those chunks of chicken (at least I hope it is chicken) in canned chicken noodle soup are so dry even if they are in liquid – overcooked!

One tip about using foil (the so-called "Texas Crutch), leave a little gap in the seal so some steam can escape.  Having a somewhat closed system, the liquid will quickly reach boiling point (212) and quickly over-cook the meat. But by allowing steam to escape the temperature of the liquid is kept down to around maybe 160 to 170 degrees - even in a 250 degree oven. The liquid will simmer and not boil producing a hopefully more tender result.

Your brisket was probably approaching done when you kicked it up to 250.  The five hours in the sealed steam bath left it overcooked.  As you probably expect, a monitoring thermometer would have let you known this.  An important thing to remember in barbecuing the meat is done when IT is done.  You cannot consistently guess at doneness by going by time only – you have to confirm by IT and tenderness testing.  It ended up you probably tested after the piece was overcooked.  Oh and also remember, no amount of FTC will revive an overcooked piece of meat.

The so-called packer cut of brisket will help out tremendously - much more forgiving.    

There are those who state that brisket or ribs cannot be overcooked.  That is inaccurate.

I will be interested if your experiments exhibit differing results.

Good luck and slow smoking,

Pachanga

[OTB]

Pachanga,
You are absolutly correct.  Anything in extremes can be a bad thing.

I probably over-stated my assumptions (and will edit my post to reflect it).

I am still thinking that if you did 3-3(or4)-1 you could consistently turn out good results.  I can't imagine that cooking at 250F, wrapped in liquid and foil, for 3 or 4 hours, could do any more harm than boiling the ribs for 2 hours.  AND...let's not get into the boiling discussion here.  Yes I have boiled my ribs for 2 hours for as long as I can remember and that is the tenderness that my family has come to love.  That doesn't make it right.

[Ka Honu]

My recent experience certainly supports Pachanga's and Caney's point.  We went to one of the best restaurants in Lahaina the other night after the great non-tsunami of 2010.  The whole town had been shut down until mid-afternoon but they still made and served braised shortribs - one of their house specialties and normally as good as it gets.  That night, the shortribs were dry.  After talking to the chef, he admitted that due to the late start, he had to braise for a much shorter time at a higher temp than normal.  

He laughed when I told him that I would have known better than to order them but had been heavily medicated most of the day while performing my arduous tsunami-watch duties (which consisted of finding a bit of high ground with a view and attempting to make my half of the vodka last until the "All Clear" was sounded).

Bottom line:  Low and slow.  Melt the fat and collagen.  Low and slow.  Steam is hot and is not always your friend.  Low and slow.  Don't confuse liquid with moisture.  Low and slow.  Listen to Pachanga and caney (even if, like me, you occasionally have to get someone to translate their posts into simpler - and shorter - versions).  And don't forget - low and slow.

[KyNola]

Previous post removed.

[Pachanga]

Bottom line:  Low and slow.  Melt the fat and collagen.  Low and slow.  Steam is hot and is not always your friend.  Low and slow.  Don't confuse liquid with moisture.  Low and slow.  Listen to Pachanga and caney (even if, like me, you occasionally have to get someone to translate their posts into simpler - and shorter - versions).  And don't forget - low and slow.

Ka Honu,

Just because its true doesn't mean you have to say it.  However, I will admit that Caney and I do resemble that remark.

Nice abridged translation.  It reads just like a Reader's Digest Condensed Book.

On another note.  I thought about you in the recent high water emergency.  Interestingly enough, I wasn't concerned for your personal well being because I pictured you just as you must have been; high ground, a flowered shirt, lawn chair, cooler and drink in hand, just hanging loose.  We are all well pleased at the anticlimactic results.

Good luck and low tides,

Pachanga

[Pachanga]

OTB,

A few more thoughts.

The title of your post "A Ran Dumb Thought" made me want to repeat what I have stated before.  The only dumb thought is the one not posted.

I enjoyed your thought process and the way you laid out the thinking.  That is the way to improve any skill.  It works well in cooking and more specifically in smoking.  My own writings help me to clarify my thoughts and prove them true or false.

My post was not meant to be critical, just informative.  I hope you read it as intended.

Please continue to think out loud on the board.  Your post made me think about methods and other ways to improve or experiment.  It is easy to get stuck in a rut without outside input and your posting caused a few dormant Synapses to fire off.

The Bradley smoker is an oven that cooks at low temps outside that happens to have a mechanism for smoke generation

This is a good statement but there is a difference in the Bradley and an oven.  An oven produces dry heat only.  A Bradley can produce dry or extremely moist heat.  It is essentially a water smoker.  Since I am not a big advocate of braising, I always barbeque naked from start to finish in the Bradley using moist heat.  More on water smoking, the effects of moisture and mopping in this thread:

To Mop or Not to Mop – That is the Question
http://forum.bradleysmoker.com/index.php?topic=14240.0

As far as some ribs being too well done and some being too fall off the bone, don't feel like the Lone Ranger.  As Smokey the Bear says so well, there are many variables in smoking and especially in the low heat Bradley.  Ambient temperature, total meat load, initial meat temperature, meat thickness, slathers, mopping, mop temperature, etc, all come into play.  The bottom line is the meat will let you know when it is done.

Ribs still slap me around from time to time, but if I start early, I can adjust my final ETA by cranking the Bradley up or down a few degrees.  FTC as necessary (sometimes there is no FTC) does the rest to provide an on schedule, hot, tender product with just the right amount of tug.  I am working with two easily controlled variables; start time and temperature.  Adjusting the temperature controls the end time even with finicky ribs.  As Ka Honu's translation states; low and slow.  Starting early is one side of that equation.

Again, thank you for your well thought out post.  Please continue.

Good luck and slow smoking,

Pachanga

[RAF128]

OTB,

I always barbeque naked from start to finish in the Bradley

Oh :o.  You should post pictures ;).  Sorry, I just couldn't resist

[Pachanga]

OTB,

I always barbeque naked from start to finish in the Bradley

Oh :o.  You should post pictures ;).  Sorry, I just couldn't resist

Trust me.  It is not a pretty sight.

Pachanga

[OTB]

Thanks for the replies to my "thinking aloud" 

I probably over-think things, but I am the type of person who will not sleep at night until I solve the problem at hand.  I have been thinking of what I would do different next time I do ribs and how to be able to produce good results consistently.  I really wish I could go out and cook another batch of ribs today to test my theories, but I don't want a family rebellion from me making them eat the same food over and over until I get it right.

Thanks again.  I will try to keep my thoughts in my head and not be spamming the forum.   ;)

[FLBentRider]

I will testify to the fact that you can over-cook ribs.

I have done it.

The entire rack just kind of falls apart into a mess of pulled pork and bones, and not as appetizing as it sounds.