ATT: expert sausage makers!

[smokeNcanuck]

Hey All,

It's been quite a long while since I have posted on the board.  As I
have mentioned to a couple members I really do not have a lot of
computer time during the summer months.  That being said its turned to
fall here in the GREAT WHITE NORTH and I am starting to get a bit more free time.
I also have that unstoppable itch to make some sausage.(1st week of Nov. is fall deer hunt
and I have been promised some fresh venison) That long winded intro brings me to my question,
I picked up some SS seasoning  and cure (came packaged together).  When I got home I read the
directions on the package, "add this unit of 1.7LBS. to 25LBS of meat +2OZS P/S cure mix.,mix well
and let stand overnight. Then stuff in to BAK casings cold smoke(80-90F) for 2 days then dry for 2 weeks."

My question is: as I have only made very limited quantities of sausage does this sound safe???  No where does
is mention to further cook the sausage to an IT of 155 , which I thought had to be done unless you were making a
dry cured sausage.  Which from reading two weeks would not be long enough for a dry cured sausage.
When I called the supply store from which I bought the mix they assured me this was safe.

As a side note this supply company supplies all the local butchers around my area.
Anyone in South Western Ontario who is looking to buy casings, spice mixes, and just about anything Else
in small quantities(or large) may want to give them a call, they were super nice to me!!  Sorry they have no web site.
Here is there info:  Canadian Butcher Supply, 79 Main Street Thedford,ON  519-296-4545
I also bought some snack stick seasoning, and Jalapeno fresh sausage seasoning as well.  I will report the taste after I
make some in the near future.

Any input would be really really welcome! 

Also a BIG welcome to all our new members!!

Hoping to not be a stranger much longer,
SnC ;)

[pensrock]

Sounds to me like it is a dry cured sausage mix?  ???
After I mix my seasonings and cure, I stuff right away. If you wait till the next day it will be much firmer and harder to stuff. I then may wait a day or two to smoke them. Also most sausage recipies call for water to be added, I do not see that in your directions. I'm guessing its for dry cured/smoked. Again I cannot say for sure. If you try it, I would not smoke it using a Bradley for two days, maybe 3-4 hours. Hopefully some more members will stop in to help out.  :)

[Habanero Smoker]

I have come across some recipes from reputable sources that have summer sausage that is dry cured for about two weeks using cure #1. But I don't know if your cure is cure #1 or cure #2. If it is for two weeks must likely it is cure #1, but that is pushing the limit for cure #1. The recipes I saw go into a lot more detail on the smoking and curing process. Such as keeping the temperature at about 55°F, and during the drying process it is important to maintain the relative humidity at around 65% - 85%. I'm not familiar with BAK casings; I believe the recipes I saw, used sheep casing; but I'm not sure.

I'll try to locate those recipes.

[smokeNcanuck]

Pens, I never thought of the water :o. I am sure I will add some, I was also wondering about the stiffness of the mixture.

Habs,

Such as keeping the temperature at about 55°F, and during the drying process it is important to maintain the relative humidity at around 65% - 85%

If it was a dry cured sausage I would have expected to see a little more detail as you mentioned.
When I asked the lady at the store about the included cure she said that it was a "pickle cure".  The ingredients listed on the bag are: salt, sodium nitrite (no percentages)
That would lead me to believe that it is a form of cure #1, She also said that cure#1 and cure#2 was mostly a USA thing, when I mentioned those names.
I am not too sure what  BAK casings are either.  I am interested to see what you come up with in the way of recipes.  Will it be safe even though it has not been cooked??

I think I'll give the store a call and try and get a little more info.  Just thought I would get the members take on it. I know there is a whole lot of knowledge around here!! 
As I am new, I really don't want to make anything that is going to make my self or anyone else sick!

Thanks to both of you for your input, the saga continues..........

SnC 

[Habanero Smoker]

I could not locate the dry cure recipes that I once found. The links were in posts that I had with another member. That was the first time I ever came across dry cured sausage using a cure #1. I thought it was on the Wedinydomowe Site, but I could not locate it.

If I could have located the recipes, it would have been safe to dry cure, if you can dry cure in a proper environment. But since your sausage mix contains sodium nitrite and no nitrates, it is perfectly safe to fully cook the sausage. So it you want to go that route, you can and should. I was being cautious on my first reply, not knowing if the cure contained a nitrate.

Yes, cure #1 and cure #2 are U.S. terms for standardized cure mixes; they are a blend of either salt - 93.75% and sodium nitrite - 6.25% (cure #1); or salt - 89.75%, sodium nitrite - 6.25% and sodium nitrate - 4% (cure #2). The cure mix you are using, though it only has a nitrite it would not be considered cure #1, since it is being used at about twice the amount that you would used a cure #1 mix.

Here is a list of common curing salts in the U.S.
Curing Salts

Generally in the U.S. when you are referring to curing meat, the term pickle means a wet brine with a cure in it, but your seasoning mix is clearly not used in that manner.

I would be interested in feedback the store give you.

[smokeNcanuck]

Habs,

I will be sure to post my findings, I will try and call tomorrow.
I want to make some this weekend.

[lumpy]

Good to see you back there SNC eh!

THis is an interesting saga about the cures. I ran into the same problem a few years ago. Bought some cure from Osogoods meats in Waterloo and asked what kind of cure that they could sell me.
They did not know what kind it was but that the premade mixture had the correct amount of salt and cure in it.
They old square head butcher gave me a baggie with the white stuff in it and said to mix it with 50 lbs of meat.

Since then, I always buy my cure from a supplier that can label the stuff properly.

Good luck
Lump

[smokeNcanuck]

Well I finally got around to calling CBS yesterday.  I did not get the fellows name I was talking to but I am sure he must have been the owner.
He was super friendly and seemed quite knowledgeable.  I asked him many questions including the big one about the SS directions.
He assured me that the directions on the package were quite safe to follow.  I asked him about the not cooking, just cold smoking and
two week drying time.  I said that my understanding was that if one made sausage this way cure #2 (or a cure with nitrite as well as nitrate)should be used.
He said that that use to be the way it was done, but not any more(we were just talking about summer, not all dry cured sausage).
He said that all his Mennonite customers make it as the directions state, cold smoking and the hanging with no problems.  He said that his pickle cure
was a really good product, he knew the percentage of salt to nitrite in the cure which he told me was 1/8 oz nitrite to 7/8 oz salt. I have no reason
not to believe him but am still a little suspect.  

Well that is what I found out and would like to hear you thoughts Habs, or anyone else that has been following this thread.

As a side note I have a 3lb test bach almost finished in the smoker right now, 152IT.  I am not taking the "risky" route this time and decided to cook it.
Thats not to say I might never try the cold smoking and hanging thing.  Ill post some pics when I take it out of the OBS, also spun up 5Lbs of sticks for smoking tomorrow.

Cheers,
SnC

[Habanero Smoker]

Sorry but this just bring up more questions. How is the finished product stored? Is there any further preparation of the sausage prior to eating?

I'm sure he knows what he is doing, or he wouldn't be in business long; but I would not be comfortable with the amount of direction that is given. That because I don't know what BAK casings are or how thick the diameter of the sausage will be. But I know what can go wrong during the drying period if the humidity is too low. The casings will dry too fast. When that happens it will trap the moisture inside, causing the sausage to spoil.

Some of the differences are going to be in how the language is used. For example, the phrase pickle cure is used differently in the U.S. Also summer sausage can be dry cured, or semi-dry cure sausage, but every semi-dry sausage recipe I've seen calls for the sausage to be fully cooked then hung to dry for a few days to expel more moisture.

As I mentioned in an earlier posts, I have come across a few recipes from reputable sources that have dry cured sausage in two weeks using only nitrites, but that is pushing the limit to rely on nitrites for protection, and also those recipes gave details on the relative humidity that must be maintained, and the idea temperature range. Once the sausage looses enough moisture and the pH level is lowered then it is safe; that is what protects the sausage in the long term.

It's early in the morning, but the amount of nitrite in his cure mixture (1.25%) is a little more then 1/5 of what is contained in the standardize cure #1 formula (6.25%).

[smokeNcanuck]

Habs,
I totally agree with what you are saying.  I did forget to ask what BAK casings were.  I know that the
Mennonites usually stuff in to cotton bags, they are usually 5 or 2.5 Lbs.  If you look at my other post (cotton bag SS)you can see
a 2.5Lbr.  A think after the two week drying you are to keep refrigerated, and I'm pretty sure there is nothing more done to the finished
product prior to eating. 

Under stand I am not trying to justify the prescribed method, just trying to understand if it is safe.  I relies as you have stated there are a
lot if holes in the stated directions.  The gentleman also was talking to me about the humidity and temp. when hanging, I described where
I was thinking of hanging a he said make sure its not too damp as mold could grow and it it was too dry the casing would dry out as you stated.
He did not mention any numbers however.

I know that you have made many types of sausage, and I value your opinion.  As I stated I made some SS using their mix but I did cook it to 152.
I want to hang it to dry it out a little, I have it hung is a cool dark and fairly moist location.
-Is this Ok? If it is,how long is it safe to hang before it should be placed in the refrigerator?
I do not have a hygrometer so I can't really say what the humidity level would be, but my sump pump hole is located in the same
room so I would say it is fairly moist.  There is also two fresh air vents, so lots of outside air circulation.

Thanks for your input!! ;)

[Habanero Smoker]

I didn't mean to have my last post seem like I was challenging this man's method. Just stating it could be done, but the instructions were lacking in directions. The more detailed information that he provided to you what he described, from my point of view, he is making is a fully dry cure summer sausage. The sausage you made; cooking first to 140°F - 152°F, then air drying for a period of time is semi-dry summer sausage. If you personally know a Mennonite, you should sit down with him/her and talk about how they make theirs, and commit to giving them a sample to try and evaluate.

Hygrometers are inexpensive, and take the guest work out of what the relative humidity is. So if you can work it into your budget, you should purchase one. The best place to dry cure is an unfinished basement, without heat; or root cellar or even a wine cellar; though a humidifier may be needed. They maintain a constant temperature of around 52°F. Some live in a climate that they can hang the sausage in one of the rooms in their homes. The relative humidity levels you are looking for are between 65% - 75% (I prefer 70%). Some sources recommend around 85% RH, but in that area I have problems with mold.

You could use your refrigerator to dry cure, but they produce a RH level that is lower then most deserts, but more often then not, the moisture escaping from the sausage will bring the RH up higher then you want. Though towards the end of the drying period, you may find you need small humidifier, or place a pan of salted water in the refrigerator. The other problem with using a refrigerator is while you are dry curing you sausage you can't use it for much of anything else. That is because you need to keep the temperature around 50°F - 60°F (I prefer 52°F - 55°F).

This time of year the RH in my house is around 25% - 35%, which is too low to air dry so I had to rig up a dry curing cabinet. I generally use the drying time as a guidline, but mainly go by weight loss. A 30% weight loss is the average people look for, but I like my dry cured sausage a little denser and dryer so I will go for 35% - 40% weight loss. One other thing, even under the best conditions a lot can go wrong, but the final rewards are well worth it. There is no comparision between a dry cured sausage and a semi-dry or fully cooked sausage. If you are going to make a dry cure sausage, for your first time you should make a small batch; maybe five pounds or so. If they don't turn out alright, then not much is lost, and you can use it as a learning experience.

[BuyLowSellHigh]

First, I have no experience with dry-cured sausages, so I am just passing this along FWIW.  Been reading this thread as I try to gain a better understanding of curing and smoking processes and techniques.  This morning  while doing some research on general pork curing processes I stumbled into the article referenced below.  It's from the University of Minnesota Extension Service -  a formulation for Summer Sausage.  What caught my eye was the use of only cure #1.

Link: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/nutrition/dj0972.html  (scroll down)

Summer Sausage. Farmer-style summer sausage is a tasty processed meat item often prepared in winter for summer consumption. A popular formula follows:

4.0 lbs lean beef
6.0 lbs lean pork trimmings
0.8 oz sugar
0.6 oz pepper (black or white)
0.2 oz sage or 0.1 oz ground mustard
4.0 oz salt
0.7 gram sodium nitrite measured very carefully and dissolved in 1/4 cup water

NOTE: It is very important that the level of nitrite not be exceeded since excessive human consumption of nitrite can be lethal. In fact, the use of commercial salt-sodium nitrite mixtures is strongly encouraged because of the problem of measuring accurately such a small quantity of nitrite. Some drug stores also are sources of sodium nitrite and may assist you in weighing out appropriate amounts for the recipe. There are commercial sources of salt containing sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite for home curing of meat. One popular source contains 0.5 percent sodium nitrate and 0.5 percent sodium nitrite. If you use this commercial source of salt and nitrite, use 5-1/2 level tablespoons per 10 lbs of meat. However, before using check carefully to make sure the product contains 0.5 percent sodium nitrate and 0.5 percent sodium nitrite. If the salt nitrate and nitrite mixture you are using contains more or less nitrate and nitrite, adjust the amount included in this formula accordingly and accurately!

Mix the beef and pork and grind through a 1/4-inch plate. Add the seasoning and curing ingredients and mix thoroughly with a mixer or carefully by hand. Grind again through a 3/16-inch plate. Place the product on trays and refrigerate at 36 degrees F for 12 to 48 hours to cure. After the cured red color has developed, stuff into hog casing or a commercial collagen casing. The product should be smoked to 110 degrees F so that a rich, dark color develops. Continue to heat the product until 142 degree F internal temperature of the sausage is reached. The temperature must exceed 137 degrees F in the internal portion of the sausage to destroy any Trichinella spiralis (trichinosis) that may be present in the pork. The internal color will then be the typical cured pink color. Store the product several weeks in a drying area not exceeding 45 degrees F. A semi-moist atmosphere (75–80 percent relative humidity) will help prevent hardening or uneven drying in the sausage.

The finished product should have a tang when eaten. This is produced by certain acid-producing bacteria (normally present in the sausage). The acid tang insures satisfactory removal of moisture from the sausage during drying, thus preventing spoilage by other types of bacteria. To ensure the presence of the desirable acid-producing bacteria, old-time recipes include mixing each batch with a pound or so from a previous batch that has been successfully stored without spoilage. The uncooked pound to be used in mixing should be kept under refrigeration.

Summer sausage need not be smoked. However, for those desiring a smoked flavor but lacking the necessary and safe smoking equipment, liquid smoke is available commercially.

[Tenpoint5]

I believe that recipe is using Salt Peter. Which is why it carries the warning about very accurate measurements.

[BuyLowSellHigh]

I believe that recipe is using Salt Peter. Which is why it carries the warning about very accurate measurements.

Actually, the recipe calls for nitrite, saltpeter is potassium nitrate.  Of the two, nitrites are the more toxic, by a factor of ~ 20 in rats.  The recipe does, however, allow for the use of curing salts containing both nitrite and nitrate.

[Habanero Smoker]

There are a variety of summer sausages from a variety of countries. The recipe that is posted is not a dry cured sausage, but a semi-dry cured.

It's difficult for most consumers to obtain pure sodium nitrite, and not safe for the home user to use since most do not have accurate scale to measure the amounts accurately. Two teaspoons of cure #1 would be the substitute, and you would want to reduce the amount of salt by two teaspoons.