Hot smoked fish -- keeping it safe.

[Smokeville]

Hi folks;

This is kind of a companion thread to one in the cold smoke section.

Up until now, I have brined and smoked salmon and trout, and then immediately cooled the fish down and vacuum sealed it. I know from previous threads that most of you would then freeze the vacuum packages. My wife and I sell the fish at Farmers' Markets, and I prefer it to be unfrozen but kept very cold. This has passed our local health inspection.

Just recently, I came across this article on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/labeti/retdet/bulletins/smofume.shtml

This document is also contained verbatim within some of the FDA guidelines I've seen, so it seems to be relevant to those of you who smoke in the USA.

The gist is that smoked fish must never be vacuum packed and stored in the fridge, due to the possibility of botulism which grows nicely especially without air.

I plan to call our local health board and ask about this, as they do know what I'm doing and were ok with the process.

But, I am concerned. Shouldn't taking the fish to the proper temperature insure that this could never happen?

This has been an education!

Thanks, Rich

[KevinG]

In order for botulism to produce its deadly neurotoxin, it needs three things: no oxygen, low acidity, and a tiny bit of moisture.

Here's a pretty good article covering it.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fs104

[smoker pete]

As the wise man Yogi Berra once said ... " This is like dejà vu all over again "  ;D ;D

[manxman]

I plan to call our local health board and ask about this, as they do know what I'm doing and were ok with the process.

But, I am concerned. Shouldn't taking the fish to the proper temperature insure that this could never happen?

It will be interesting to see what they have to say, there is a lot of vacuumed packed smoked fish on display at fridge temperatures around these parts but how much of it has been stored frozen and just defrosted to put out on display I have no idea.

[ExpatCanadian]

[It will be interesting to see what they have to say, there is a lot of vacuumed packed smoked fish on display at fridge temperatures around these parts but how much of it has been stored frozen and just defrosted to put out on display I have no idea.

Paul, you and I are on the same page....  I was just thinking about all the salmon/mackeral/kippers in Waitrose, Sainsbury's, Tesco etc. that are vac sealed but NOT frozen.  Maybe it's irradiated  :D. Seriously though, I suspect especially with the hot smoked stuff it's cooked with a specific time/temp criteria that ensures it's pretty much sterile before packaging...

But, I am concerned. Shouldn't taking the fish to the proper temperature insure that this could never happen?

This statement definitely has some merit...  as I said above cooking to a proper temperature for a specified time WILL kill the spores and bacteria...  and as long as you continue to follow safe food handling practices AFTER it's been smoked/cooked, it's highly unlikely to becomes contaminated again prior to packaging.  Remember....  vac sealed or not, for something to grow, it's got to be there in the first place!

[BuyLowSellHigh]

As the wise man Yogi Berra once said ... " This is like dejà vu all over again "  ;D ;D

Oh boy!

Smokeville,

I don't know about Canada, but in the US trying to navigate through the myriad of USDA and FDA food regs is the most confounding thing I know.  It baffled me professionally for years.

The concern about vacuum packed "ready to eat" fish (and meats too) is real.

Shouldn't taking the fish to the proper temperature insure that this could never happen?

By heat alone, not unless you take the temp high enough to destroy the spores, which for some strains needs temps ~220-240 °F.

Rather than walk into the buzz saw again, I'll pass along a couple of references.

First, a really good reference on Botulism (the illness) and Food Safety from Colorado Sate University - includes a good overview but was written to better guide home canning with consideration of high altitude.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.pdf

Second, an explanation of the U.S. regulations for cold smoked salmon as explained by one of the top experts (Kenneth S. Hilderbrand) at Oregon State University. But this reference is ~ 10 years old.

http://listproc.ucdavis.edu/archives/seafood/log0006/0074.html

Bottom line, check with your local regulatory gurus.  For US expertise, you might try contacting Hilderbrand at OSU.

[manxman]

Paul, you and I are on the same page....  I was just thinking about all the salmon/mackeral/kippers in Waitrose, Sainsbury's, Tesco etc. that are vac sealed but NOT frozen.

Exactly what I was thinking about Tyson. I did read an article in a Scandinavian cookbook recently recommending freezing all fish before you do anything with it and in particular fish you are going to cold smoke.

I think:

without any other means of preservation

and

Division B.21.025 of the Food and Drug Regulations prohibit the sale of marine and fresh water animal or animal products that are smoked (or to which liquid smoke has been added) if they are packaged in a container that is sealed to exclude air unless the following conditions are met:

• the container has been heat processed after sealing at the temperature and for a time sufficient to destroy all spores of the species Clostridium botulinum, or
  the content of the container contain not less than nine percent salt, or
  the contents of the container are customarily cooked before eating, or
  the contents of the container are frozen and the principal display panel of the label of the container carries the statement "Keep Frozen Prior to Use" in the same size type used for the common name of the contents of the container

.

are the relevant bits that seem to make fridged vacuumed sealed products OK providing these criteria are met.

Heck of a minefield for anyone that wants to produce commercially both in terms of keeping the product safe and complying with the regulations!

[ExpatCanadian]

Manxman...  I suspect after vac sealing, the commercially produced stuff over here is heat processed under pressure or something similar.  Would explain its nasty texture...  you ever had that stuff?  Man, after making my own, I could never go back to the commercial stuff.

As the wise man Yogi Berra once said ... " This is like dejà vu all over again "  ;D ;D

Rather than walk into the buzz saw again, I'll pass along a couple of references.

I know what you're saying...  I think the issue with that "other" thread wasn't the information it contained, but how it got presented.  Most of us on here are pretty tolerant individuals, it takes a lot to provoke, and then a "correction" occurs  ;D.

It just goes to show that the topic of this thread is something people are interested in....  and perhaps concerned about.  At least by having a friendly academic discussion about it, we learn...  and can decide for ourselves whether it's relevant to our own practices.  As long as nobody is saying "I'm right, you're wrong", then nobody else is going to get P.O.'d.

[BuyLowSellHigh]

One of the joys of doing this at home is that we don't have to follow the rules of the food police, that many feel are extreme and excessive. Smokeville though has a business that is regulated, so he is in a bit of a different situation.

BTW - related to your cold smoking question ... here is a link to the of the FDA's guidance on Processing Parameters Needed to Control Pathogens in Cold Smoked Fish that should answer your previous question on that matter.  The broader general guidance from which that comes is  Fish and Fisheries Products Hazards and Controls Guidance
.

[manxman]

Would explain its nasty texture...  you ever had that stuff?  Man, after making my own, I could never go back to the commercial stuff

Yes ..... GROSS!! I would never go back to the commercial stuff either.

wasn't the information it contained, but how it got presented.

can decide for ourselves whether it's relevant to our own practices.  As long as nobody is saying "I'm right, you're wrong", then nobody else is going to get P.O.'d.

Hit the nail on the head!  ;)

[Smokeville]

Thanks so much, everyone. Ultimately, it will be up to the local health board, but I appreciate all this info and thoughts because I want to be able to sound like I know what I'm talking about -- even though it won't change anything. The Federal rules in this case would trump the local thinking. My fear right now is that the local board told me this and I didn't hear it, but I don't think so. I was pretty clear about the FoodSaver, etc., and we were even inspected at the Farmers' Market with our product on display.

I really don't mind freezing the product, but it will change the way we do things.

BTW, a hidden accolade to Kummock for his salmon brine and smoking technique. One lady came up to us and said "I bought your salmon last week and it's the best I've had since Copenhagen..." And, even better, we gave a sample to the retail manager for the largest seafood retailer and supplier in Southwestern Ontario, and he said "That's good salmon!........... I think that's the best smoked salmon I've ever had."

And, I hate to say, that is with Atlantic Salmon! Thanks, Kummock!

Rich

[BuyLowSellHigh]

Rich, one other thing you might want to think about, and that is which regulatory authority/authorities are pertinent to your operation.

In the US food handling operations such as restaurants, institutional kitchens, butchers, supermarket meat departments , etc. typically fall under the authority of a local health department.  Food processors typically fall under the regulatory authority of the USDA or the comparable State-level agency.  While the two are mostly in total agreement, they often depart from each other when it comes to acceptable practices.  If the USDA had their way at restaurants I wouldn't be able to that rare steak or my eggs cooked over easy, and I wouldn't be eating steaks or breakfast out except under protest.

[Caneyscud]

One of the joys of doing this at home is that we don't have to follow the rules of the food police, that many feel are extreme and excessive. Smokeville though has a business that is regulated, so he is in a bit of a different situation.

Uhhh may not be as far fetched that we as home producers of different types of food might have to fear the food police also.  To address the problems with the rash of food borne illnesses that such a civilized country such as ourselves should not be having (we've conquered nature haven't we?), responsible [sic] congressmen have acted in the public's best interest.  It's odd (not reaally) that some of these laws are backed aggressively my big agribusiness.  According to them, the public health and existence is being threatened by organic farms, small dairies, small farmers, etc.... because they are too small or too dumb to know how to produce food correctly (with lots of chemicals, medicines, chemical fertilizers, GM seeds, etc.....).  I shudder to think what they think about home producers.  Some of the bills are S.425, H.R. 814, H.R. 814, H.R. 759 among others that are mostly in committee, even for up to a couple for a couple of years. 

This vacuum packed thing is an old song with a new tune.  Anybody who does canning has been subject to the same information.  Low acid food processing is not something you fool around with willy-nilly especially combined with anerobic conditions.  Prudent precautions must be followed.  Now does the government go too far at times - most certainly! But you know, it could be my family's life at stake, somebody that I am responsible for protecting.    There are silly rules and regs and there are serious rules and regs.  You just have to wade through and discern as a home use processor.  As far as a public selling processor that's another thing. 

[Kummok]

My attention has been directed elsewhere of late so, alas I join this discussion just in time to see its demise. I've read the various opinions and agree with the summation that we should all just 'Eat fish til we die!'   ;)

[SamuelG]

FDA Quote "Cold-smoked fish is packaged using film with variable oxygen transmission rates (OTRs). Gas permeability is an important parameter and should be taken into account when doing research and making decisions on food safety issues."

Just for my own knowledge, is the vacuum bags/rolls that are commonly used these specific types of film?

Thanks,

SamuelG