Basic Cowboy Mop Pachanga

[chooch]

Was thinking of using this on my next brisket.... I'm trying to get the order of events down. If I use a mustard slather with a few up front spices, do I then throw it in the bradley and immediately start smoking, then when smoke is done start with the mopping for a few more hours until it's done?

[classicrockgriller]

I don't mop (when I do) till the meat forms a bark or

you might start washing your rub off.

I use it toward the end of the smoke. (last 1/3)

[Tenpoint5]

Speaking of which where has our ole friend Pachanga been hiding here lately? I sure hope all is well in his world.

[chooch]

I don't mop (when I do) till the meat forms a bark or

you might start washing your rub off.

I use it toward the end of the smoke. (last 1/3)

So this would be more like a traditional BBQ riblike thing where you just let it cook and when it's almost done put sauce on it?

I only intend to smoke for 2 hours max, then let it ride out for another 4 or so, unless I just go with IT. I was thinking tho that the mop would help it form more bark for more seasoning flavor.

[seemore]

Chooch, let us know how the brisket turns out.
Mrs S

[OU812]

Sooooooooooo, howd that brisket turn out?  ;D

[chooch]

Thanks for the interest  ;D

Well, I smoked 3 hrs with Apple, let it rest while cooking more, then smoked another 2 with oak. I must say that this time I got at least a smattering of the rub in there.... the smoke wasn't overpowering at all. But I still think I'm not doing something right. So far, including the ribs, everything I smoke seems to come out neutered in terms of flavor. On this brisket, there may not have been enough fat although it was a whole brisket, maybe not enough fat. I never opened the smoker, so I never got to mop. One reason for this I think was that I was counting on the brisket taking around 12-14 hrs or so when in fact this single average size brisket took a hair more than 18 to get up to 185 IT and I had to go to bed ( I get up at 4:00 to work). It was cold outside so I gotta give it that, the cooking temp never got above 230 or so. But, it seems my luck with smoking anything other than bacon is coming out a bust. I was hoping to get something more along the lines of how meat comes outta the crock pot kind of, juicy and a little fat left with a slight rubbery tenderness. What I seem to always get is a consistency like soft plaster, very evenly soft with no fat left in the meat and a taste that I can't discern distinct flavors but rather just a mix of everything.

The only way I could describe it is synthetic, like a computer rendition of what a good brisket should be.

Is this the way all meat comes out of a smoker? I'm pretty sure the temps were hanging around the 140 up to 180 range for many hours so all that collagen broke down and the meat got tender, but it's like there's no juice left in it, just moisture.


I also think the rub just doesn't have enough zing to it to survive 6 hr.s smoke.

I'd really hate to end up just using the smoker to make bacon and dry jerky.... that'd be a waste.

So does anyone know what I'm describing and am I doing something wrong here? I get the feeling that cooking meat for this many hours with spices and smoke just blends everything too much.

[chooch]

I don't mop (when I do) till the meat forms a bark or

you might start washing your rub off.

I use it toward the end of the smoke. (last 1/3)

This is what I was shooting for.... a bark. I never get a bark of any kind so I was hoping that repeated mopping would give me a nice build up of flavors on top of the meat. Never mopped, never got a flavor bark.

[BuyLowSellHigh]

I just caught up with this chooch.  First, do NOT give up.  I suspect you aren't far from something much closer to what you seek than you think.  Mastering a brisket or ribs takes some practice, note taking or remembering, and some experimentation.  I am no master, but I am getting very close to exactly what I want.  I think it helps that you have a target for what you want, so long as that target is realistic.

You raise several different issues, so this response will bounce around a bit and be a bit long.  First, let's consider moisture versus juiciness.

I'm pretty sure the temps were hanging around the 140 up to 180 range for many hours so all that collagen broke down and the meat got tender, but it's like there's no juice left in it, just moisture.

Okay that one has me scratching my head a bit.  In cooking, moisture is generally considered to be the presence of water.  Juiciness, however, can include much more than water. It can include the sensation created by the presence of fats even largely in the absence of water.  When it comes to meat what we are typically seeking is a combination of tender and juicy.  For something like a brisket or a pork butt or ribs, getting tender means converting the collagen to gelatin.  That conversion starts around temperature of 160 °F. Before the collagen can begin the conversion to gelatin it must first denature which causes a lot of shrinkage, and that shrinkage squeezes water from the cells in the meat.  That starts at a lower temperature of about 140 °F.  Depending upon the rate at which the meat temperature is increasing, the conversion to gelatin may not be complete until an IT of 190 °F, or higher, is reached.  That conversion is not just an IT issue, it also takes time.  Now here's the hard part.  By the time the conversion of collagen to gelatin begins to occur, most of the water in the meat has been squeezed out of the cells by the shrinkage of the collagen.  Hence water or moisture content is largely gone as gelatin formation begins.  So for juiciness we rely on fats and gelatin formation.  We want to keep the fats and the gelatin being formed intact to keep that nice juicy sensation.  This where FTC comes into play.  FTC allows time to complete the conversion of collagen to gelatin in a closed environment, so that what moisture remains and the fat are both retained as much as possible.  Think of FTC as a process of using time instead of more heat to do the work for you.  The work that happens with time is magical, with heat it is a bit more like a brute force approach.  With FTC the time is on the orders of hours.  But before you go there you need to hit the tenderness mark.  On those "tough" cuts of meat  IT is a broad general guide to where you might expect to hit tender, but a fork test is the real measure.  The trick is to cook until just tender, and no more, then use time (FTC) to allow the process to continue without applying more heat to the "system".

Sauces bring another way to add to the sense of juiciness.

I was hoping to get something more along the lines of how meat comes outta the crock pot kind of, juicy and a little fat left with a slight rubbery tenderness. What I seem to always get is a consistency like soft plaster, very evenly soft with no fat left in the meat and a taste that I can't discern distinct flavors but rather just a mix of everything.

If a crock pot like result is what you seek, then you may want to consider a braise finish rather than just cooking "naked".  Many use that approach to finish both brisket and butts.  One good example liked by many is the WTS Brisket recipe on the recipe site, here.

But then comes the issue about bark - that nice crusty layer on the exterior.  This comes from a combination of caramelizing the sugars present (mostly from a rub) and the Maillard reaction which combines sugars with small proteins.  Both require that any significant moisture on the surface be gone before those processes can take place.  It takes a fairly dry surface, heat and some time. Then once you have it, if you want to keep it crusty vs soft and moist, you need to keep it dry.  Therein lies a conflict.  Do you want a crusty bark, as in a dry surface, or is a softened , moist bark what you seek?

If you want to use braise type finish and texture but a drier barky surface, then you may want to try something along the lines of the 3-2-1 method used widely for ribs -- first smoke and partially cook, then braise to near finish, then cook dry again to firm up the surface.

Just be aware that in braising, like in a crock pot, flavors tends to meld.  So a crock pot like texture and juiciness with distinct flavors showing through is another bit of a conflict.

The bottom line here is if you have particular result in mind, then you may need to try some different methods, perhaps combining some elements from several different approaches, and experiment a bit to get exactly what you want.

So far, including the ribs, everything I smoke seems to come out neutered in terms of flavor.

Flavor rules!  First, if you want more smoke flavor you can try longer smoke times and/or changing the wood used for smoke.  Maybe try hickory or some mesquite, two of the more assertive smokes.  Use smoke like you would any other flavoring component, both in the amount and type of smoke. 

Second, if you want more zing in your rub, well then put more zing in your rub, and maybe use more of it.  Another option is to re-season the meat after cooking, perhaps as you go into FTC.  I know many who add seasoning to a pork butt just before or as they are pulling it.  If you want distinction of various flavor elements, then you might consider adding those very near the end of the entire cooking and preparation so that they have less time to meld together.

This is one where you have a lot of control, so use it.

On this brisket, there may not have been enough fat although it was a whole brisket, maybe not enough fat. I never opened the smoker, so I never got to mop. One reason for this I think was that I was counting on the brisket taking around 12-14 hrs or so when in fact this single average size brisket took a hair more than 18 to get up to 185 IT and I had to go to bed ( I get up at 4:00 to work). It was cold outside so I gotta give it that, the cooking temp never got above 230 or so. ...

Brisket is a challenging cut of beef.  It baffles and amazes many.  But with some time, help from folks who have found success (many here in these forums), some practice and a willingness to figure it out, you can master the beast.  Quality of the starting product is important, and can make getting the result a whole lot easier. Often each brisket seems unique and requires some adaptation of the basics to get exactly what you want. 

I'd really hate to end up just using the smoker to make bacon and dry jerky.... that'd be a waste.

So does anyone know what I'm describing and am I doing something wrong here? I get the feeling that cooking meat for this many hours with spices and smoke just blends everything too much.

I agree - that would be a waste.

Yes, I know what you're describing.  I don't think you've done anything wrong.  You just haven't gotten to the state or level you seek, yet.  But, mastery comes with practice and doing more briskets, ribs, and pork butts.  So don't give up - have a plan on what you want to change next time to make it better, get a good piece of meat, and try again.  The good news is that along the learning path there are seldom really bad results, just different tasting meat along the way.  It's all still good eats, but maybe not yet the perfect eats you are working towards.  Keep at it and you will get there, just enjoy the journey along the way.

From what I believe you are reaching for you have set a pretty high bar for yourself.  I think that's good.  Just don't get discouraged along the way ... enjoy the trip.

One final thought, pork butts pose many of the same challenges as brisket but tend to be a bit more foregiving.  If you have any like for pulled pork it might be an bit more rewarding place to start from.

[TestRocket]

A great write up here BLSH and chooch I would like to reiterate the use of FTC and let the meat rest for a few hours. It alone may bring you a couple of steps closer to what you are looking for! Good Luck! 

[classicrockgriller]

BLSH has given you some interesting things to think about.

Don't be afraid to add more smoke. It has been stated that once the meat area (outside)

reaches approx 140* that it will no longer take on smoke inside the meat, but more smoke

will aid in creating a bark.

I think in Pachanga's post that he smokes for 8 hrs or so and then stops for a while and then

starts smoking again in the last 6 hrs or so.

In large off set smokers, wood is the smoke and heat scorce so smoke of some kind is present

all thru the cooking process.

Keep at and one day Your eyes will pop open with joy and a tear will run down your cheek.

You will have found what you are looking for.

[chooch]

Thanks for all the help guys  :)

I think I used a few incorrect adjectives in the last post so I'll try and correct here. I'm wondering if on this particular cut of meat the lack of fat was a large part. I did keep the meat in the "zone" for a good long while so I should have gotten the breakdown pretty thoroughly, so I'm thinking there just wasn't enough fat in the cap or in the meat to give the juicy sensation. I'm thinking the meat never got "fork tender". When done, I doubt I could have just cut it with a fork unless really wrenching on it, maybe not even then. I think it was just a little more firm than that.

I think I also backed off a bit on the smoke this time because the very first time I smoked it was ribs, and I used hickory for a good long time, basically what I saw in the recipe, and I had too much smoke flavor in the ribs, made them taste like commercial smoked butt. So I backed off the smoke this time. I did a couple bacon smokes and I noticed that while they were great when pretty fresh, if left for a week or so a lot of the smoke smell and flavor was gone. So I'm thinking I'm getting used to the smoke flavor and should stop backing off of it or use different woods.

The reason I tried going with the nude smoke was because I followed the WTS recipe to the letter and got these same results... no bark, no flavor on the outside of the meat and an overall mixed flavor throughout. I figured this time I'd get a dry bark formation using the mustard and rub, hoping to get a chance to mop and get more dried mop to help form a thicker layer of bark. In the bark, what I was hoping to get was something akin to what you get when you grill ribs, put sauce on, then cook a bit and add more sauce. Getting a nice thick layer with good carmelization and some burned areas to add texture. I didn't get anything near a bark even tho the mustard and rub where there, As I think of it now there's no way I could have gotten a good bark without adding more during cooking.

As for the crock pot statement, that was a mistake. I realize now that a lot of that moisture is water, what I meant was the "fall apart" consistency of crock pot cooking with the fat still being in the meat and some left on top of the brisket, as well as a good think dry crust on the outside full of flavor.

I think I'm gonna try some commercial rubs because I'm not getting what I'm looking for just using the WTS rub. I can say that I id make sure the meat was basically dry on the outside when I put the rub on, only so much will stick to it even when I rub it in.

I had in mind to FTC but I was already in bed and I doubt the wife performed this task. Matter of fact I believe she fiol wrapped it and put it in the fridge.

Since I was going for a dry crusty bark I didn't want to FTC and have the bark get like mush though, so it may have been that I unintentionally just didn't think to have her FTC it.

Anyway, I'm gonna try it again, look for a good fat cap on the meat and try finding a mop so I can keep adding the layers. I just hope I can get enough on there and that the smoker gets hot enough to darken the crust without it just turning to mush. That's also a question I have, does vent size play a significant role in dryness of the meat and bark?

[classicrockgriller]

If you are asking about the vent opening, then this is what is written in the FAQ on the recipe site.

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?488-Answers-To-Bradley-Smoker-FAQ-s&p=780#post780

[BuyLowSellHigh]

chooch, that helps clarify some things.  A few comments.

First you've already figured out about smoke flavor the impact of wood and time.  You also figured out the impact of a braised finish and the melding of flavors,  Great learning!

Based on  what you've said so far I think you're more interested in the naked approach.

About bark,  how dry you want it is a matter of preference.  But if you're going for dry and crusty, just appreciate that you'll also be more likely to get a drier result throughout.  It's a tradeoff.  Personally I like moist crusty, where it has a firm texture to the bite, but is not hard or dry.  I get that from a naked smoke, some cooking in a covered but vented pan, and then finish for about an hour again naked, then a few hours (2-4) of FTC.  Works for me, but may not be what you're looking for.

Finishing with a sauce and getting it hot enough to caramelize, as you have suggested, might work well for what you want.  I suggest at some point you give it a try.

Do try some different rubs, or look at what some others have use and rave about and the results they get.  There is no no magic rub.

Finally, on tenderness.  Based upon your description of the texture when you tried it I suspect you didn't get as much collagen conversion as you may think.  IT should be used as a guide as to when you move into the zone.  It is good measure of "doneness" but is not a measure of tenderness.  Beef can be very tricky because the age of the animal comes into play on tenderness more so than fat, which is mostly about flavor and mouth feel or juiciness.  As beef cattle age the collagen becomes increasingly tougher (due to crosslinking that increases with age and work).  USDA grading includes age of the carcass, as judged by the inspector, as part of the grade consideration.  Beef that has the fat content and marbelling consistent with Prime but is too old can be graded as Choice.  That kind of Choice graded beef will have very nice fat marbelling (like Prime) but can have some very tough collagen that takes heat and time to convert to gelatin. On the other extreme is veal that produces gelatin readily (lower temp) and abundantly due largely to it's youth (that's why veal bones are favored for meat stock).  Several here have done Waygu briskets (American Kobe beef) and those go tender at a surprisingly low temperature , typically 175 - 180 °F, probably because of their easy life, their care and possibly youth too.

On your next brisket I suggest you try using the "fork test".  The probe of a meat thermometer also works well.  Make your first stab at an IT of about 170 °F -- this is your baseline for what it feels like before tenderness.  Then stab again at about 180, and every 5 degrees thereafter.  When it goes tender you will know it.  At that point you have reached your objective for cooking and it's time to let FTC takeover.

As I see it you are trying to juggle taste (smoke and seasoning), tenderness and then bark and texture.  Just as a suggestion I would encourage you to get the basic taste and tenderness worked out next, let the crustiness of the bark be what it is as you try out some changes.  Then once you have the tenderness and taste thing tackle getting that bark perfected while trying to keep the other two as you want them.  It's a struggle of conflicts, but I have no doubt you can get exactly what you want.

If you haven't already found this thread from Pachanga, you might find it right up your alley ... "I Prefer to Smoke Totally Naked  -- A Brisket and Ribs Manifesto".

[chooch]

Thanks for that vent link, I now know that among other things, I likely had the vent open a bit far, roughly 5/8 open for this brisket. I guess there's no substitute for experience when it comes to wood choice, smoke time and flavor, that's just something you can't get in words. I think I have a decent idea of the effects of braising and at this point I can't see me wanting to braise anything but I', sure something will come up that could use it's effect.

As far as the bark goes. it's not imperative that it's dry or crunchy but rather that it sets apart from the actual consistency of the meat. I guess the best wat to describe what I'm looking for is just right of mushy, even tarry would be ok as long as it had some flavor. I was hoping I could get what I'm looking for using just the BS without having to use the house oven or a grill. Suffice it to say, I picked the wrong week to try a brisket ;). It seems as though this is one of those meats that requires quite a lot of attention and various techniques that I haven't been associated with as of yet. I was hoping to could juggle time, smoke, rub and slather and just get am almost ready to go product out of the BS, but FTC is no big deal to do so I guess I'll add that back into the system for the next brisket.

As far as the meat I got, I have no idea what rating it was, I just picked it up from a local butcher. I don't think I've seen a whole brisket for sale at my local costco so I may be relegated to the one source.

In m comparisons, I kept thinking I could repeat a cut of meat I had from Trader Joes wherein the meat was in a bag with the seasonings, marinating. I think it was their "Tri Tip" roast that's kinda spicy and hot. That's what I thought I'd come close to with the rub I used since it had a lot of pepper in it, but again my version wasn't marinating in a bag for days on end like the Trader Joe stuff is.

I also thought maybe I could accomplish what my mother had done years ago where apparently she just put salt, pepper and a bunch of garlic on the outside of a roast and threw it in the oven. What came out seemed to have a blackened "bark" on it that was garlicky and dark in flavor. Maybe my mind is trying to accomplish something a smoker doesn't reproduce the same way.

Either way, I greatly appreciate the technical side of the process BLSH, this is how I learn and it's what keeps it interesting. I thank you for your time and writing, I'll give your advice more diligence on the next one!

Now it's off to make some deer jerky.